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NP Wednesday November 9, 2016

49 posts in this topic

So she DID awakened and Pandora didn't noticed.

Also, interesting information: the size change WAS supposed to be S-rank spell just like Sarah's. Would change few past discussion. Including the discussion about Rhoda becoming unable to cast her spell when the magic clog is removed, although obviously with her already being awakened that can't happen.

Hmmm ... does Rhoda actually have affinity for this kind of spells or was it still just yearning? Does she really have three spells now or is the number even bigger? (With the spells being very similar, hard to say probably ...)

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4 minutes ago, demonhunter said:

Called it! Yay!

It feels like Tedd being marked again: growing number of reasons why it makes sense but important counterargument which turned out to be false. In Tedd's case, mark spell turned out to not count against his "never get a spell of his own". In Rhoda case, turns out finding out if someone is awakened is harder than we though, because even Pandora can overlook it.

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Considering how easy it was for Mr. Verres to determine that Elliot and Ellen had awakened, I think it's more "you have to be looking for it" and less "hard to tell."

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15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

So she DID awakened and Pandora didn't noticed.

Also, interesting information: the size change WAS supposed to be S-rank spell just like Sarah's. Would change few past discussion. Including the discussion about Rhoda becoming unable to cast her spell when the magic clog is removed, although obviously with her already being awakened that can't happen.

Hmmm ... does Rhoda actually have affinity for this kind of spells or was it still just yearning? Does she really have three spells now or is the number even bigger? (With the spells being very similar, hard to say probably ...)

Seems at least 3 spells so far, all related to size changing and the 2 newer ones are more like specialized upgrades. The first one seemed to only do scale changes and could only work on singular targets (clothing on people being separate targets). The second one was more focused and allowed for the target and their clothes to be included, maybe the size change would be greater ratio than the original. And the third was more precision not scale so she could she could either adjust height only like we saw, or width. maybe even fine tune specific parts (like boobs).

As for whether this is affinity or yearning, I would have expected Pandora to have known what it would have been prior to marking, but considering she thought Rhoda was a D rank talent....I'm wondering if Pandora at the time was just "Hey, she's got size issues, here's a spell for her" and didn't really get a good look at her potential. Pandora did admit as much when she said she might not have paid enough attention to Rhoda.

18 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It feels like Tedd being marked again: growing number of reasons why it makes sense but important counterargument which turned out to be false. In Tedd's case, mark spell turned out to not count against his "never get a spell of his own". In Rhoda case, turns out finding out if someone is awakened is harder than we though, because even Pandora can overlook it.

I certainly doesn't have to do with Pandora not being powerful enough to see it, if Pandora could detect Sarah's affinity when Jerry couldn't, she should have been able to detect Rhoda's potential. Pandora was either being lazy just did a quick glance to she what Rhoda yearned, or maybe a person's true potential doesn't show until after awakening. Though, still surprising that it didn't take long for Rhoda to awaken, it's been 5 months since the boar, and I gave her about a month before figuring out she had the spell, so that'd be 4 months till the current moment in the NP, and it seems like she's done what she just did before so 3 and a half months of casting the original spell frequently enough to exercise her magic and awaken?

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Rhoda must have played with her spell.  A lot.  She seems to have awakened properly without energy buildups and without an on-screen angsty moment like Susan's.  Was she Awakened by an Immortal?

When Susan Awakened, Jerry said Susan would have at least one new spell.  She got one (the hammers).  Rhoda has at least two new spells.  If she only got one new spell when she Awakened, she's earned a new one since.  Which means she is still playing with her spells a lot.

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7 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Rhoda must have played with her spell.  A lot.  She seems to have awakened properly without energy buildups and without an on-screen angsty moment like Susan's.  Was she Awakened by an Immortal?

Voltaire comes to mind as someone that might do that, though he didn't try to manipulate her like he did with Dex, and Dex wasn't awakened at the time of the dragon fight, so I dunno for sure if Voltaire would.

11 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

When Susan Awakened, Jerry said Susan would have at least one new spell.  She got one (the hammers).  Rhoda has at least two new spells.  If she only got one new spell when she Awakened, she's earned a new one since.  Which means she is still playing with her spells a lot.

Nanase went through a period where she was using magic whenever she could and getting new spells pretty frequently because of it, I think she got 6 new spells over the course of a few days, the detect visibility spell, the clothing exchange, Fox summon, the hair change, the fae punch and the guardian form. Mind you Nanase is probably even higher than S rank if that's possible. But I wouldn't be surprised if S ranks could get a new spell every week or so with frequent practice.

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5 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Voltaire comes to mind as someone that might do that, though he didn't try to manipulate her like he did with Dex, and Dex wasn't awakened at the time of the dragon fight, so I dunno for sure if Voltaire would.

Voltaire came to mind here as well.  Not sure what his motive would be either, but since it just seemed to happen to Rhoda one day and all other Immortals we know are pretty fresh from resets (may not be able to Awaken) and don't seem the sorts to Awaken just for the giggles of it, Voltaire is the prime suspect by default.

10 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Nanase went through a period where she was using magic whenever she could and getting new spells pretty frequently because of it, I think she got 6 new spells over the course of a few days, the detect visibility spell, the clothing exchange, Fox summon, the hair change, the fae punch and the guardian form. Mind you Nanase is probably even higher than S rank if that's possible. But I wouldn't be surprised if S ranks could get a new spell every week or so with frequent practice.

I'm not even sure what a S-rank is.  Perhaps someone with native magic potential but no magical aptitude the way Susan, Diane (and apparently Sarah) have.

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2 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I'm not even sure what a S-rank is.  Perhaps someone with native magic potential but no magical aptitude the way Susan, Diane (and apparently Sarah) have.

The whole rank system that Pandora uses is in reference to many video games from Japan that have achievement systems that go by rank, low to high being E-D-C-B-A and then S rank being the absolute best. Basically Pandora's making it clear that despite her age, she's hip with the pop culture of today's youth. ;)

Also Sarah is still considered a D rank talent, at least until she awakens. Diane's probably an E considering she doesn't have any magic yet but she could potentially be a higher rank. Whether Susan is considered an S rank remains to be seen, she might be an A rank which would still be pretty good, we'd have to see how many spells she's recieved since awakening, and if she's been using Nase as much as Rhoda's been using her spells, Susan should have more spells than she thought when Tedd mentioned it.

Still this is all based on Pandora's perception of talent ranks. Edward probably has a different ranking system, complete with detailed charts.

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1 minute ago, Scotty said:

The whole rank system that Pandora uses is in reference to many video games from Japan that have achievement systems that go by rank, low to high being E-D-C-B-A and then S rank being the absolute best. Basically Pandora's making it clear that despite her age, she's hip with the pop culture of today's youth. ;)

I think it's a function of the place that even an immortal is not immune to.

Everybody in Moperville is at least a little bit geeky.

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2 hours ago, demonhunter said:

Called it! Yay!

Also called it. Yay us!

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2 hours ago, Aura Guardian said:

Considering how easy it was for Mr. Verres to determine that Elliot and Ellen had awakened, I think it's more "you have to be looking for it" and less "hard to tell."

Considering Pandora is able to "just know" things very hard for other people to find out when looking for them ...

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

The second one was more focused and allowed for the target and their clothes to be included, maybe the size change would be greater ratio than the original. And the third was more precision not scale so she could she could either adjust height only like we saw, or width. maybe even fine tune specific parts (like boobs).

It seems her second spell was the third one :)

I wouldn't be surprised if her second spell allowed resizing boobs but she didn't tried yet. She, however, mentioned that "it's easier when only changing height", suggesting she's at least partially aware she can either resize or change height.

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

As for whether this is affinity or yearning, I would have expected Pandora to have known what it would have been prior to marking, but considering she thought Rhoda was a D rank talent....I'm wondering if Pandora at the time was just "Hey, she's got size issues, here's a spell for her" and didn't really get a good look at her potential. Pandora did admit as much when she said she might not have paid enough attention to Rhoda.

Hmmmm ... like, she marked her with affinity based mark without noticing it's affinity? That's really EXTREMELY low level of attention ...

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Pandora was either being lazy just did a quick glance to she what Rhoda yearned, or maybe a person's true potential doesn't show until after awakening.

The second option would cast doubt on her assessment that Sarah is D-rank talent ...

2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Rhoda must have played with her spell.  A lot.  She seems to have awakened properly without energy buildups and without an on-screen angsty moment like Susan's.  Was she Awakened by an Immortal?

There are likely other emotions capable of awakening you.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

I'm not even sure what a S-rank is.  Perhaps someone with native magic potential but no magical aptitude the way Susan, Diane (and apparently Sarah) have.

The whole rank system that Pandora uses is in reference to many video games from Japan that have achievement systems that go by rank, low to high being E-D-C-B-A and then S rank being the absolute best. Basically Pandora's making it clear that despite her age, she's hip with the pop culture of today's youth. ;)

She probably spend some time reading manga, watching anime, playing video games. She tried EVERYTHING to avoid boredom.

I imagine she stole new game, plays one level, then throw it away because she already knows how to beat the final boss.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Also Sarah is still considered a D rank talent, at least until she awakens. Diane's probably an E considering she doesn't have any magic yet but she could potentially be a higher rank.

I think the rank is about potential, not current level. So, if you are D-rank talent, you will never get C-rank, but by working hard you can get better than lazy B-rank.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Whether Susan is considered an S rank remains to be seen, she might be an A rank which would still be pretty good, we'd have to see how many spells she's recieved since awakening, and if she's been using Nase as much as Rhoda's been using her spells, Susan should have more spells than she thought when Tedd mentioned it.

She can even be "just" B. But even if she keeps summoning Nase, I think it's nowhere near Nanase casting spells as fast as possible, because she won't get so much experience from Nase just hanging around. Also, we really have just few points on graph, so predicting how many spells she may have and what it says about her rank is premature. It would still be funny if she get multiple new spells.

 

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2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Hmmmm ... like, she marked her with affinity based mark without noticing it's affinity? That's really EXTREMELY low level of attention ...

Maybe there's personality based affinities? Like Rhoda had an affinity for size manipulation magic which contributed to her distorted perception of scale? I can see that being confused for yearning.

8 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The second option would cast doubt on her assessment that Sarah is D-rank talent ...

That's why I view the ranking system as based on a person's magic level, not potential, which would mean that Sarah has the potential of becoming an S rank talent because she has an affinity for an S rank spell, but without the help of the ambient energy from the clog, she's only a D rank in power and would need to use other D rank equivalent spells to exercise to higher ranks.

Of course there may be other factors that contributed to Rhoda awakening so quickly and Pando

17 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

There are likely other emotions capable of awakening you.

Yeah, I not sure how that would apply to Rhoda though. I guess it depends on what, if anything, happened to Rhoda just prior to her noticing that she could do something different. As we found with Justin, one could be awakened without knowing it, mind you that was done by an Immortal and so would be very subtle, but I wouldn't be surprised if natural awakening via meeting the energy requirements for it is hardly noticeable too.

24 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

She probably spend some time reading manga, watching anime, playing video games. She tried EVERYTHING to avoid boredom.

I imagine she stole new game, plays one level, then throw it away because she already knows how to beat the final boss.

She doesn't have to steal games, she could just go into someone's game room in the middle of the night, set up a few wards to keep the residents from hearing or noticing her, and then play their games for a bit.

But the main reason for her keeping up with the culture is to understand the people she would be "guiding" whether it's making them jump through hoops for some reward, or looking for people to potentially be giving marks to.

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1 hour ago, mlooney said:
4 hours ago, demonhunter said:

Called it! Yay!

Also called it. Yay us!

 

If only I actually had some cookies.

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3 hours ago, partner555 said:

Rhoda of all people is S rank? That was unexpected.

Knowing Dan, that is why. :demonicduck:

This must be a little like how it feels to think you have just invited a mildly talented novice to your magic school and gotten Harry Dresden instead.

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5 hours ago, Scotty said:

Maybe there's personality based affinities? Like Rhoda had an affinity for size manipulation magic which contributed to her distorted perception of scale? I can see that being confused for yearning.

Well Rhoda is a bit shorter than most people around her and that in itself can affect one's perception. (For instance the people around me seem run a little taller than the average height especially among the women and I always seemed to be the last person around me to get a growth spurt; this has had the consequence of me feeling shorter than I really am despite actually being pretty close to average male height so I can relate to her perception a little and her desire to be taller on occasion.) It may be possible a strong enough yearning may be indistinguishable from an affinity in certain respects even it differs in others. Either that or personality based affinities could certainly explain things.

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1 hour ago, PSadlon said:

Well Rhoda is a bit shorter than most people around her and that in itself can affect one's perception. (For instance the people around me seem run a little taller than the average height especially among the women and I always seemed to be the last person around me to get a growth spurt; this has had the consequence of me feeling shorter than I really am despite actually being pretty close to average male height so I can relate to her perception a little and her desire to be taller on occasion.) It may be possible a strong enough yearning may be indistinguishable from an affinity in certain respects even it differs in others. Either that or personality based affinities could certainly explain things.

Maybe personality based isn't term I'm looking for, not entirely sure though. We know having magic can affect someone physically, making them taller, magic boobs, and abs. Maybe affinities could also do this, and is responsible for Rhoda being short. Rhoda would then develop her distorted perception of scale from that and her insecurity over it would easily be mistaken as a yearning to be able to make herself bigger. Rhoda's affinity could have been as hard to detect as Sarah's and Pandora might not have been looking that deep when she marked Rhoda. That realization of hard to detect affinities could have contributed to Pandora marking Sarah later on. Heck with Sarah's spell, before the revelation that she had an affinity for it, we thought she yearned for something like it based on her behaviour during the deck building phase of the card tournament. The affinity could have given Sarah that behaviour.

Catalina Bobcat got a name based affinity, not exactly sure how that would work, would Magic have predicted it before Catalina was born, or when her parents filled out the birth certificate? Either way that affinity also seemed to affect how she behaved, being all energetic and catty.

For Susan and Diane though, it's really hard to tell if their affinities are responsible for their behaviors, or their upbringings. It's possible that affinities don't have to do anything if the person already has enough drama around them, eg; a cheating cheater of a father.

 

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16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

There are likely other emotions capable of awakening you.

Agreed.  But Rhoda's Awakening was smooth and seamless like Justin's.  Neither knew when they awakened.  Rhoda just thought "Oh hey, that weird mark's gone again".  That's something I associate with an Immortal.  Certainly Nanase's Awakening was known to have been done by an Immortal and was just as seamless and easy as the other two.  It's just Nanase knew it happened.

If Susan's Awakening is any judge, emotional awakenings tend to be dramatic. 

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Just now, Vorlonagent said:

Agreed.  But Rhoda's Awakening was smooth and seamless like Justin's.  Neither knew when they awakened.  Rhoda just thought "Oh hey, that weird mark's gone again".  That's something I associate with an Immortal.  Certainly Nanase's Awakening was known to have been done by an Immortal and was just as seamless and easy as the other two.  It's just Nanase knew it happened.

If Susan's Awakening is any judge, emotional awakenings tend to be dramatic. 

Justin never did confirm if he had awakened or not after the fire golem fight, he just assumed that it was the ASMA training that did it.

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18 hours ago, demonhunter said:

Who wants to bet Rhoda's going to find a spellbook under her pillow tonight?

Why? Pandora didn't give spellbook to Justin, so why to Rhoda?

18 hours ago, Scotty said:
18 hours ago, hkmaly said:

There are likely other emotions capable of awakening you.

Yeah, I not sure how that would apply to Rhoda though. I guess it depends on what, if anything, happened to Rhoda just prior to her noticing that she could do something different. As we found with Justin, one could be awakened without knowing it, mind you that was done by an Immortal and so would be very subtle, but I wouldn't be surprised if natural awakening via meeting the energy requirements for it is hardly noticeable too.

I think I was already explaining my theory that you can be only naturally awakened by emotion, but how strong the emotion needs to be changes based on energy requirements ... the closer you are to filling it, the weaker emotion is needed. Unfortunately, it doesn't match with Jerry's saying that angst-based awakenings are usually due to death of loved ones ... but I still like it.

18 hours ago, Scotty said:

She doesn't have to steal games, she could just go into someone's game room in the middle of the night, set up a few wards to keep the residents from hearing or noticing her, and then play their games for a bit.

According to most of game producing companies, this is still considered stealing. Although the legal term is violation of copyright. Also, she would be leaving electronic track.

18 hours ago, Scotty said:

But the main reason for her keeping up with the culture is to understand the people she would be "guiding" whether it's making them jump through hoops for some reward, or looking for people to potentially be giving marks to.

Nah. I agree that this is also good reason, but I'm sure avoiding boredom is the main one.

18 hours ago, partner555 said:

Rhoda of all people is S rank? That was unexpected.

Small, timid, shy ... fits perfectly. Who would you expect to be S-rank, Diane?

18 hours ago, Scotty said:

Maybe there's personality based affinities? Like Rhoda had an affinity for size manipulation magic which contributed to her distorted perception of scale? I can see that being confused for yearning.

The difference between affinity and yearning is that affinity is in your blood (DNA) and therefore you first have affinity and then personality, while yearning comes later, after the personality.

On the other hand, height is also influenced by DNA, so it's possible she inherited both :)

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

Maybe affinities could also do this, and is responsible for Rhoda being short. Rhoda would then develop her distorted perception of scale from that and her insecurity over it would easily be mistaken as a yearning to be able to make herself bigger. Rhoda's affinity could have been as hard to detect as Sarah's and Pandora might not have been looking that deep when she marked Rhoda. That realization of hard to detect affinities could have contributed to Pandora marking Sarah later on. Heck with Sarah's spell, before the revelation that she had an affinity for it, we thought she yearned for something like it based on her behaviour during the deck building phase of the card tournament. The affinity could have given Sarah that behaviour.

Or that. Yes, that would make sense: sometimes you get what is the cause and what is the effect wrong ...

Also, yes: it's possible that after the experience with Rhoda Pandora started looking better ...

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

Catalina Bobcat got a name based affinity, not exactly sure how that would work, would Magic have predicted it before Catalina was born, or when her parents filled out the birth certificate? Either way that affinity also seemed to affect how she behaved, being all energetic and catty.

Must've been hard to predict she will be named Bobcat. Mr. Bobcat and Mrs. Bobcat definitely spent lot of time on that :)

She would likely have the affinity even if her first name would be Jane, although Catalina strengthened it.

2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

But Rhoda's Awakening was smooth and seamless like Justin's.  Neither knew when they awakened.

We don't KNOW how smooth and seamless were their awakenings. They were probably less dramatic than Susan's, because that would be pretty obvious to be related to magic (although Rhoda likely wouldn't know what happened anyway), but, say, if Justin was angry about something and decided to vent it on punching bag and ended smashing it through the wall, he would likely consider it close to normal for anime martial arts training.

Of course, with Justin awakened by Pandora, it might've really be totally smooth and seamless ... but finding good example with Rhoda would be harder. What strong emotions could she have? Considering Catalina didn't see her naked yet ... hmmm ... did she forget her homework and got shame-based awakening?

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Justin never did confirm if he had awakened or not after the fire golem fight, he just assumed that it was the ASMA training that did it.

Justin still had the mark AFTER the fight.

 

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11 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

We don't KNOW how smooth and seamless were their awakenings. They were probably less dramatic than Susan's, because that would be pretty obvious to be related to magic (although Rhoda likely wouldn't know what happened anyway), but, say, if Justin was angry about something and decided to vent it on punching bag and ended smashing it through the wall, he would likely consider it close to normal for anime martial arts training.

Of course, with Justin awakened by Pandora, it might've really be totally smooth and seamless ... but finding good example with Rhoda would be harder. What strong emotions could she have? Considering Catalina didn't see her naked yet ... hmmm ... did she forget her homework and got shame-based awakening?

Rhoda talks about her mark disappearing very casually.  I take that to mean she didn't notice when it happened.  Further we have never seen any relationship drama between Rhoda and Catalina mentioned or implied and I consider drama to be essential for Rhoda to Awaken this fast after being Marked, S-rank or no. 

The only drama in Rhoda's life that we know about is her changing-room makeout sessions with Catalina.  The way I see it, Rhoda either Awakened by getting busy with Catalina or an Immortal did it.  I don't see to many other viable options.

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