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mlooney

Story Friday April 3rd 2020

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19 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Different universe, some official knowledge of contact by an alien race, perhaps they've made accommodations.

That would imply there isn't a masquerade about aliens, which there is, it's one of DGB main missions.  

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5 hours ago, mlooney said:

That would imply there isn't a masquerade about aliens, which there is, it's one of DGB main missions.  

How deep is the masquerade?  Uryuoms work along side humans, they walk the streets, and they live here as permanent residents. Remember the sensitivity training comment, you don't set up sensitivity training if you are primarily not acknowledging existence. I would say that in certain contexts, the Uryuoms are acknowledged, and there is no masquerade. To the general public, as general knowledge, there is.

It has never been spelled out, but the Uryuoms could be stuck here. They may not have FTL travel, a reasonable assumption, as at present, it appears to not be possible, so they may have arrived here in a generation ship. That in turn may have been one shot for various reasons, mostly having to do with they never intended it to return, so didn't factor that in to the design criteria.

Although, they've been/visited here since ancient Egypt, so presumably breed slowly or manage their population growth. Or perhaps they were more widely known in the past and hunted to near extinction on the EGS Earth. Seems unlikely, but so do the other two options.

And weirdly, they have a mechanism to breed with humans that is in some sense better though out than any hybridization on Star Trek.

Conjecture; the existence of lion bears has something to do with them.

 

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10 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Pandora might be giving a comprehensive list of armies Raven failed to get into. But yes, unlikely she would miss Russia.

It is my understanding that Adrian did not so much fail to get into any armies as rather it is forbidden for "Elves" to serve in one. More generally, Elves are forbidden from killing sapient Mortals except for explicit defense of self or others, and thus any occupation which involves using lethal force when commanded to do so is implicitly forbidden. ("Elves" in this context defined as anybody who has enough Immortal genes to have an indefinite lifespan.)

10 hours ago, mlooney said:

Just for what it's worth, if there is a masquerade in place with regards to both magic and aliens, aliens can't be person by law.  US Law defines natural persons as being homo sapiens.

Well, in our world, there are presently no publicly-acknowledged sapient beings who are not Homo Sapiens, so the law is not written to accommodate such.

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6 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

It has never been spelled out, but the Uryuoms could be stuck here. They may not have FTL travel, a reasonable assumption, as at present, it appears to not be possible, so they may have arrived here in a generation ship. That in turn may have been one shot for various reasons, mostly having to do with they never intended it to return, so didn't factor that in to the design criteria.

Will and Gill were concerned about the long arm of the law (specifically the religious and government institutions on the Uryuom homeworld) prohibiting their Advanced Cosmetic Morphing Device (the TF Gun). This only makes sense if Earth is not out of the homeworld governments' reach--i.e. that law enforcement over interstellar distances is not impractically slow or expensive.

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4 hours ago, ijuin said:

Will and Gill were concerned about the long arm of the law (specifically the religious and government institutions on the Uryuom homeworld) prohibiting their Advanced Cosmetic Morphing Device (the TF Gun). This only makes sense if Earth is not out of the homeworld governments' reach--i.e. that law enforcement over interstellar distances is not impractically slow or expensive.

That makes sense and you are probably right. There is a local interpretation of how that works though; they may be completely out of touch with the home world, but have a representative government 'here' (could be in orbit or some such) to carry out what they believe are the cultural directives. It does seem implied that there is still contact. ... phone home.

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17 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

There is a local interpretation of how that works though; they may be completely out of touch with the home world, but have a representative government 'here' (could be in orbit or some such) to carry out what they believe are the cultural directives.

Of course they are in orbit.  They keep being bothered by screaming humans and immortals.  Plus, of course fighting off the dreaded space sharks.

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3 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

You set that to start play at the end of the video.  Like a dummy I fixed the URL and got the whole thing.  I'd like that chunk of time back, please.

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17 hours ago, mlooney said:

Just for what it's worth, if there is a masquerade in place with regards to both magic and aliens, aliens can't be person by law.  US Law defines natural persons as being homo sapiens.

Part of the masquerade regarding Uryuoms is pretending they're human. Presumably, those legally in on the alien-masquerade have agreed to treat them as such as well. So Uryuoms only have a problem if the alien-masquerade fails; at that point there would be a legal battle over whether to change the law.

6 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

How deep is the masquerade?  Uryuoms work along side humans, they walk the streets, and they live here as permanent residents. Remember the sensitivity training comment, you don't set up sensitivity training if you are primarily not acknowledging existence. I would say that in certain contexts, the Uryuoms are acknowledged, and there is no masquerade. To the general public, as general knowledge, there is.

I don't think Dan has addressed this, but I suspect that for legal purposes Uryuoms are classified as an ethnicity.

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45 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

Part of the masquerade regarding Uryuoms is pretending they're human.

Hmm.  Not so sure how that would work in a legal context.

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In a legal context, problematic, but if nobody challenges their human status...

... and they do often wear shirts that say things like "Ordinary Human"...

That doesn't seem like it would matter much, but just think of what color the letters are in this box:

Quote

Blue

 

 

It probably took you a while to get to "red"...

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2 hours ago, mlooney said:

You set that to start play at the end of the video.  Like a dummy I fixed the URL and got the whole thing.  I'd like that chunk of time back, please.

Weird, I copied the link that appeared on the site, it should not have had a time encoded; it didn't change. Something with YouTube?

 

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6 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

In a legal context, problematic, but if nobody challenges their human status...

... and they do often wear shirts that say things like "Ordinary Human"...

That doesn't seem like it would matter much, but just think of what color the letters are in this quote box:

It probably took you a while to get to "red"...

Just remember, if you drive at them fast enough, the red lights turn green.

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16 hours ago, ijuin said:

in our world, there are presently no publicly-acknowledged sapient beings who are not Homo Sapiens

Does this mean we must accept Homo Sapiens as sapient beings?  I have reservations...

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7 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Does this mean we must accept Homo Sapiens as sapient beings?  I have reservations...

Well, at least some members of that species are sapient.  Seems to be hit or miss as to which one are. 

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31 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Does this mean we must accept Homo Sapiens as sapient beings?  I have reservations...

According to formal logic, all recognized sapient beings are Homo sapiens, but not all Homo sapiens are sapient beings. Sapient beings are therefore a subset of Homo sapiens.

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16 hours ago, ijuin said:
On 4/9/2020 at 1:15 AM, hkmaly said:

Pandora might be giving a comprehensive list of armies Raven failed to get into. But yes, unlikely she would miss Russia.

It is my understanding that Adrian did not so much fail to get into any armies as rather it is forbidden for "Elves" to serve in one. More generally, Elves are forbidden from killing sapient Mortals except for explicit defense of self or others, and thus any occupation which involves using lethal force when commanded to do so is implicitly forbidden.

Most likely, the law is not specifically talking about armies, BUT it's requirements are likely preventing not just actual killing in action, but even harm necessary in soldier training. I suspect that Adrian actually tried to enter military just to be prevented to finish the training.

16 hours ago, ijuin said:

("Elves" in this context defined as anybody who has enough Immortal genes to have an indefinite lifespan.)

Actually, this is very good question not yet answered in comics: we know there are special laws about direct children of fairies AND it seems that direct children of fairies have indefinite lifespan. However, we know next to nothing about the next generation. Sure, Diane have round ears, but that may not be related to anything. Are there any rules she needs to follow, possibly weaker than Adrian? How long will her lifespan be? What about children of two elves, would it count as "full elf" because of roughly same amount of fairy genes, or as "second generation" just as any other child of elf? Did children of two elves even happened?

16 hours ago, ijuin said:
16 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

It has never been spelled out, but the Uryuoms could be stuck here. They may not have FTL travel, a reasonable assumption, as at present, it appears to not be possible, so they may have arrived here in a generation ship. That in turn may have been one shot for various reasons, mostly having to do with they never intended it to return, so didn't factor that in to the design criteria.

Will and Gill were concerned about the long arm of the law (specifically the religious and government institutions on the Uryuom homeworld) prohibiting their Advanced Cosmetic Morphing Device (the TF Gun). This only makes sense if Earth is not out of the homeworld governments' reach--i.e. that law enforcement over interstellar distances is not impractically slow or expensive.

Not only that, it also implies that Uryuom law takes precedence over US law.

11 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

That makes sense and you are probably right. There is a local interpretation of how that works though; they may be completely out of touch with the home world, but have a representative government 'here' (could be in orbit or some such) to carry out what they believe are the cultural directives. It does seem implied that there is still contact. ... phone home.

In such situation, would they really have enough firepower to force Earth government to follow their laws? If Uryuom would be refugees, they would need to be glad they get ANY help at all, beggars can't be choosers etc.

9 hours ago, ChronosCat said:
On 4/9/2020 at 1:07 AM, mlooney said:

Just for what it's worth, if there is a masquerade in place with regards to both magic and aliens, aliens can't be person by law.  US Law defines natural persons as being homo sapiens.

Part of the masquerade regarding Uryuoms is pretending they're human. Presumably, those legally in on the alien-masquerade have agreed to treat them as such as well. So Uryuoms only have a problem if the alien-masquerade fails; at that point there would be a legal battle over whether to change the law.

16 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

How deep is the masquerade?  Uryuoms work along side humans, they walk the streets, and they live here as permanent residents. Remember the sensitivity training comment, you don't set up sensitivity training if you are primarily not acknowledging existence. I would say that in certain contexts, the Uryuoms are acknowledged, and there is no masquerade. To the general public, as general knowledge, there is.

I don't think Dan has addressed this, but I suspect that for legal purposes Uryuoms are classified as an ethnicity.

Yes, it would seem so.

7 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

In a legal context, problematic, but if nobody challenges their human status...

... and they do often wear shirts that say things like "Ordinary Human"...

Their disguises are funny to us but apparently, in-universe, they somehow works. Magic might be involved.

7 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
10 hours ago, mlooney said:

You set that to start play at the end of the video.  Like a dummy I fixed the URL and got the whole thing.  I'd like that chunk of time back, please.

Weird, I copied the link that appeared on the site, it should not have had a time encoded; it didn't change. Something with YouTube?

time_continue ...

7 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
7 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

That doesn't seem like it would matter much, but just think of what color the letters are in this quote box:

It probably took you a while to get to "red"...

Just remember, if you drive at them fast enough, the red lights turn green.

While technically true, at such speeds you would drive through whole town in less than second and then probably left surface of earth and escaped Sun's gravity ... while leaving enormous amount of destruction behind you. Something like this.

39 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:
16 hours ago, ijuin said:

in our world, there are presently no publicly-acknowledged sapient beings who are not Homo Sapiens

Does this mean we must accept Homo Sapiens as sapient beings?  I have reservations...

Hmmm ... first definition in wiktionary says "Attempting to appear wise or discerning.", that would work.

Of course, as Pratchett noted, we are not Homo Sapiens. We are Pan Narrans, the storytelling ape.

 

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

While technically true, at such speeds you would drive through whole town in less than second and then probably left surface of earth and escaped Sun's gravity ... while leaving enormous amount of destruction behind you. Something like this.

'Technically', the best kind of 'true' ...

Point of fact, though, that those speeds, I don't think the word 'driving' applies.

Note also, the baseball did not make it to home plate intact. I doubt if you leave the atmosphere as you.

 

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Of course, as Pratchett noted, we are not Homo Sapiens. We are Pan Narrans, the storytelling ape.

I like that. Would politicians be Pan Taurusfeces?

 

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5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Not only that, it also implies that Uryuom law takes precedence over US law.

In such situation, would they really have enough firepower to force Earth government to follow their laws? If Uryuom would be refugees, they would need to be glad they get ANY help at all, beggars can't be choosers etc.

While technically true, at such speeds you would drive through whole town in less than second and then probably left surface of earth and escaped Sun's gravity ... while leaving enormous amount of destruction behind you. Something like this.

On driving at relativistic speed: http://www.galactanet.com/comic/view.php?strip=39

On Uryuom law, some societies believe that you can not renounce your membership in them under any circumstances, and thus that anybody born to them is forever under their jurisdiction (at least morally, even if they can't enforce their law on somebody living in foreign territory). We have not seen any explicit proof on this either way regarding Uryuom government, though.

On firepower, even without dedicated weaponry on their starship(s), we must remember The Kzinti lesson: "a reaction drive's efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive."  A fusion or antimatter-powered drive is basically the equivalent of a nuclear bomb going off continuously inside of a magnetic confinement field. Open a hole in that field and point it at an enemy who is close enough, and you've basically nuked them. Even lacking that, they could use their numerous smaller craft (their small saucers and other landing craft) to lift rocks off of our Moon and drop them onto Earth at tens of thousands of miles per hour, making for some fairly effective bombardment.

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1 hour ago, ijuin said:

Even lacking that, they could use their numerous smaller craft (their small saucers and other landing craft) to lift rocks off of our Moon and drop them onto Earth at tens of thousands of miles per hour, making for some fairly effective bombardment.

Ah, the "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" attack method.  A slightly modified versions is know as "Rods from God", but that doesn't use moon rocks but titanium rods dropped from orbit.

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It’s a method that is easy to carry out by anyone who commands the high end of the gravity well, and it is effective against anyone who lacks the means to seize that position from them.

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9 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
11 hours ago, hkmaly said:

While technically true, at such speeds you would drive through whole town in less than second and then probably left surface of earth and escaped Sun's gravity ... while leaving enormous amount of destruction behind you. Something like this.

'Technically', the best kind of 'true' ...

Point of fact, though, that those speeds, I don't think the word 'driving' applies.

If driving is supposed to involve steering, definitely. Only way to change direction in this kind of speeds is with some kind of thrust, and it would be VERY slow.

9 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Note also, the baseball did not make it to home plate intact. I doubt if you leave the atmosphere as you.

The baseball is from rather volatile material. If you would be in car, with metal all around, you MIGHT still be you when leaving atmosphere. Maybe. Probably not much longer, though. Basically, you are surrounded by air which is surrounded by metal. As long as the metal divides air inside and air outside, the air inside act as thermal insulation. Of course, even after leaving atmosphere, it will be heating from the metal and cooking you.

9 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
11 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Of course, as Pratchett noted, we are not Homo Sapiens. We are Pan Narrans, the storytelling ape.

I like that. Would politicians be Pan Taurusfeces?

Did you HEAR any politicians? They are DEFINITELY Pan Narrans. The fact their stories have nothing to do with reality don't make them less stories. In fact, some political speeches MIGHT be more realistic than some fairy tales.

5 hours ago, ijuin said:

On driving at relativistic speed: http://www.galactanet.com/comic/view.php?strip=39

Yeah, so not AS fast as that baseball.

(Of course, they were lying. They wouldn't be able to stop from that speed, and the policeman would not be able to see them.)

5 hours ago, ijuin said:

On Uryuom law, some societies believe that you can not renounce your membership in them under any circumstances, and thus that anybody born to them is forever under their jurisdiction (at least morally, even if they can't enforce their law on somebody living in foreign territory). We have not seen any explicit proof on this either way regarding Uryuom government, though.

But that still leaves convincing OTHER societies about this.

5 hours ago, ijuin said:

On firepower, even without dedicated weaponry on their starship(s), we must remember The Kzinti lesson: "a reaction drive's efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive."  A fusion or antimatter-powered drive is basically the equivalent of a nuclear bomb going off continuously inside of a magnetic confinement field. Open a hole in that field and point it at an enemy who is close enough, and you've basically nuked them. Even lacking that, they could use their numerous smaller craft (their small saucers and other landing craft) to lift rocks off of our Moon and drop them onto Earth at tens of thousands of miles per hour, making for some fairly effective bombardment.

That would imply their engines are working and/or that they have landing craft capable of repeated use.

That can't be taken for granted in "refugees" situation.

Also, while they can cause lot of devastation, that would be counterproductive to whatever they need our planet for. If they want uninhabitable planet, they can take Venus or Mars.

With orbital bombardment, they can force governments to capitulate, but they also can be sure that people will be thinking about revenge. They would need to occupy whole Earth, and that needs manpower.

Their position would be much better if they have actual weapons capable of precision strikes. Rocks thrown from orbit are NOT precise. Titanium rods would be better, but still, hard to take out White House for example without causing civilian loses.

 

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5 hours ago, mlooney said:

Ah, the "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" attack method.  A slightly modified versions is know as "Rods from God", but that doesn't use moon rocks but titanium rods dropped from orbit.

If I recall correctly, Millennium uses a similar technique.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

If driving is supposed to involve steering, definitely. Only way to change direction in this kind of speeds is with some kind of thrust, and it would be VERY slow.

You are a projectile. You have no time to react. You don't even have time to register that you might need to react.

 

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

The baseball is from rather volatile material. If you would be in car, with metal all around, you MIGHT still be you when leaving atmosphere. Maybe. Probably not much longer, though. Basically, you are surrounded by air which is surrounded by metal. As long as the metal divides air inside and air outside, the air inside act as thermal insulation. Of course, even after leaving atmosphere, it will be heating from the metal and cooking you.

I can't believe we are still beating this dead horse. The window collapses due to pressure differential, almost instantly. Your head ablates faster than the baseball, albeit, there's more to ablate. Otherwise, the sheet metal and plastic do not last long. The engine and transmission will be among the last survivors, so might protect you feet for a while.

You are also bathed in blue shifted radiation. The sky in front of you might become dark as the light shifted above the visible, if your eyes weren't among the first things to go.

 

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Did you HEAR any politicians? They are DEFINITELY Pan Narrans. The fact their stories have nothing to do with reality don't make them less stories. In fact, some political speeches MIGHT be more realistic than some fairy tales.

The more polished ones tell stories. We happen to have one in particular who likes to tweet. He's been having a field day with Covid-19.

 

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Their position would be much better if they have actual weapons capable of precision strikes. Rocks thrown from orbit are NOT precise. Titanium rods would be better, but still, hard to take out White House for example without causing civilian loses.

Neither one is precise if it's not precise. Both are precise if you make them precise. It is more difficult, takes more effort, to make a bombardment from lunar orbit precise than from an inner orbit. The payoff in terms of destructive power is greater.

 

 

 

 

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