NP Tues April 7 2020

[hkmaly 490]

12 hours ago, Scotty said:

On 4/9/2020 at 2:52 AM, hkmaly said:

Closest to explicitly say it would probably be here. He's actually warmed up to her a little before your link ... but still, he's doing all that "ally" stuff just because he must, and feels about this obligation exactly how would one expect from teenager.

I'm pretty certain he's not calling Susan (or Elliot for that matter) clumsy though, either he's calling himself that because he almost got discovered if he spilled the soda and realized he wasn't disguised well enough, or that spill was already there and he's cursing himself for making a bigger deal out of it than he needed too, I mean seriously, the worst that would happen is Susan steps in it and it gets on her shoes and if her shoes have good soles on them, there shouldn't be much danger of slipping.

If you think so ...

12 hours ago, Scotty said:

Zeus was also clearly in panic mode at the time because Pandora had caught him at Susan's and threatened to hurt him if anything bad happened, so it's not that he's mad about Susan, it's the situation he's in.

Well, definitely. He wasn't exactly in good mood before either, but with additional threat from Pandora ...

12 hours ago, mlooney said:

I suspect it was "tear him to shreds" not just hurt.

11 hours ago, mlooney said:

I still suspect that the threat given to Zeus, even after he explained why he was in Susan's room was a little more than "I'll hurt you".  More like "I'll force a reset on your ass".

She was definitely more graphical than "I'll force a reset", but I also think that whatever she threatened him with was both painful and causing bad kind of forced reset.

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

Might still have been lenient compared to what she could have done if she had caught Voltaire before she was reset.

Well, in case of Zeus, it MIGHT've been just threat. With Voltaire, she would definitely do it.

9 hours ago, mlooney said:

True.  One of the sad things, among many, of Pandora's reset is she didn't get a chance to kill Voltaire.

Not only it's sad, I'm not sure who will now have power to kill Voltaire ...

[mlooney 3,417]

4 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Not only it's sad, I'm not sure who will now have power to kill Voltaire

Make it where he can't jump planes and Dame Tara could do a number on him.

[Scotty 1,061]

Just now, hkmaly said:

Not only it's sad, I'm not sure who will now have power to kill Voltaire ...

It'd probably need to be a collective effort much like how they reset Immortals that break Immortal law, though I'm uncertain if they'd kill him, or if there's something worse than a forced reset that would be an adequate punishment.

[mlooney 3,417]

6 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It'd probably need to be a collective effort much like how they reset Immortals that break Immortal law, though I'm uncertain if they'd kill him, or if there's something worse than a forced reset that would be an adequate punishment.

Immortals as a group most likely aren't as down on him as select mortals are.

[ijuin 572]

For the Immortals, trying to force a Magic System Change is probably a greater offense than wanting to subjugate Mortals-in-general, though manipulating Pandora by trying to kill her family probably ranks higher than simply killing random Mortals.

[mlooney 3,417]

10 minutes ago, ijuin said:

For the Immortals, trying to force a Magic System Change is probably a greater offense than wanting to subjugate Mortals-in-general, though manipulating Pandora by trying to kill her family probably ranks higher than simply killing random Mortals.

Maybe, but lets not forget that immortal are, at best, neutral towards humanity as a whole.  They might not care about the killing of an elf as he or she isn't an immortal.

[hkmaly 490]

37 minutes ago, mlooney said:

42 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Not only it's sad, I'm not sure who will now have power to kill Voltaire

Make it where he can't jump planes and Dame Tara could do a number on him.

Maybe. Unless the rules change he is currently advocating in front of other immortals allows him to defend better.

34 minutes ago, Scotty said:

42 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Not only it's sad, I'm not sure who will now have power to kill Voltaire ...

It'd probably need to be a collective effort much like how they reset Immortals that break Immortal law, though I'm uncertain if they'd kill him, or if there's something worse than a forced reset that would be an adequate punishment.

This might not be a question of what's worse ; maybe somehow tricking him into forced reset will be only option.

5 minutes ago, mlooney said:

17 minutes ago, ijuin said:

For the Immortals, trying to force a Magic System Change is probably a greater offense than wanting to subjugate Mortals-in-general, though manipulating Pandora by trying to kill her family probably ranks higher than simply killing random Mortals.

Maybe, but lets not forget that immortal are, at best, neutral towards humanity as a whole.  They might not care about the killing of an elf as he or she isn't an immortal.

They are neutral towards humanity, but it's possible they don't count elves as humanity ...

[mlooney 3,417]

1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Maybe. Unless the rules change he is currently advocating in front of other immortals allows him to defend better.

He seemed to imply that the reason he didn't fear Tara was because he could flee.  If some how that got taken from him, he might have issues.

 

2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

7 minutes ago, mlooney said:

Maybe, but lets not forget that immortal are, at best, neutral towards humanity as a whole.  They might not care about the killing of an elf as he or she isn't an immortal.

They are neutral towards humanity, but it's possible they don't count elves as humanity ...

We don't have enough data points to tell one way or the other.  The fact that immortal lie about elves ability to have children tells me that they don't really have their best interest at heart.

[hkmaly 490]

10 hours ago, mlooney said:

10 hours ago, hkmaly said:

10 hours ago, mlooney said:

Maybe, but lets not forget that immortal are, at best, neutral towards humanity as a whole.  They might not care about the killing of an elf as he or she isn't an immortal.

They are neutral towards humanity, but it's possible they don't count elves as humanity ...

We don't have enough data points to tell one way or the other.  The fact that immortal lie about elves ability to have children tells me that they don't really have their best interest at heart.

Actually, their lie about it to THEMSELVES and it would imply that they do care about elves and would actually care about THEIR children as well if they knew they can have them.
On the other hand, it's true it's kinda selfish kind of care and they may only care about their own, not elves in general.

I definitely agree on the "not enough data" though. So far we only know about single elf. That's catastrophically low number of data points.

10 hours ago, mlooney said:

10 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Maybe. Unless the rules change he is currently advocating in front of other immortals allows him to defend better.

He seemed to imply that the reason he didn't fear Tara was because he could flee.  If some how that got taken from him, he might have issues.

Yes, but that doesn't rule out that relaxing rules could give him some option he didn't have in that encounter.

[Scotty 1,061]

12 hours ago, hkmaly said:

They are neutral towards humanity, but it's possible they don't count elves as humanity ...

Especially considering part of Voltaire's campaign was letting all the Immortals know that it's possible to have families among mortals. If they were to find out that he intentionally put a fellow Immortal's family in danger to force said Immortal to break the law and then be all "this wouldn't have happened if we had more freedom!", they might have things to say about it.

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Actually, their lie about it to THEMSELVES and it would imply that they do care about elves and would actually care about THEIR children as well if they knew they can have them.
On the other hand, it's true it's kinda selfish kind of care and they may only care about their own, not elves in general.

I definitely agree on the "not enough data" though. So far we only know about single elf. That's catastrophically low number of data points.

It's entirely possible that the decision to lie about Elves being able to have kids was done at the same time the decision to have 200 year resets was made, if living for too long ran the risk of becoming unstable then it makes sense that they'd want as few attachments as possible, Pandora was a good example of someone who didn't want to let go. Beyond that, most Immortals seemed to have just avoided getting too attached to humans so that Elves wouldn't result, as far as we know Adrian is the only Elf alive.

Now in terms of Reset vs Refresh, it's unknown if Immortals had ever done refreshes before, or if it was just a suggestion that was put forth when Immortals were deciding how to handle the problem of instability, maybe the majority shot down the idea because they were like "No, the only way to be sure is complete reset, leave no emotional attachments intact!"(which, as Pandora also demonstrated, being emotionally attached to someone caused her to break Immortal Law) so for all we know, Pandora is the absolute first Immortal to attempt a refresh.

[hkmaly 490]

34 minutes ago, Scotty said:

12 hours ago, hkmaly said:

They are neutral towards humanity, but it's possible they don't count elves as humanity ...

Especially considering part of Voltaire's campaign was letting all the Immortals know that it's possible to have families among mortals. If they were to find out that he intentionally put a fellow Immortal's family in danger to force said Immortal to break the law and then be all "this wouldn't have happened if we had more freedom!", they might have things to say about it.

Well, but it WOULD prove his point. Like, maybe his mission to relax the laws would be successful but suicidal at same time ...

19 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It's entirely possible that the decision to lie about Elves being able to have kids was done at the same time the decision to have 200 year resets was made, if living for too long ran the risk of becoming unstable then it makes sense that they'd want as few attachments as possible, Pandora was a good example of someone who didn't want to let go. Beyond that, most Immortals seemed to have just avoided getting too attached to humans so that Elves wouldn't result, as far as we know Adrian is the only Elf alive.

Neither the lying about having kids nor the 200 years reset were unanimous decisions, so they might not happened at same time for different immortals ... but, on the other hand, yes I think they are reaction to one or several immortals who went way too old BECAUSE of having attachments, just as Pandora, so it would make sense to happen around the same time for many.

Also, yes, it's possible Adrian is the only Elf alive, but he's nowhere near only Elf ever. It seems very likely that there were much more Elves in past, but, well, they are long-lived, not immortal.

24 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Now in terms of Reset vs Refresh, it's unknown if Immortals had ever done refreshes before, or if it was just a suggestion that was put forth when Immortals were deciding how to handle the problem of instability, maybe the majority shot down the idea because they were like "No, the only way to be sure is complete reset, leave no emotional attachments intact!"(which, as Pandora also demonstrated, being emotionally attached to someone caused her to break Immortal Law) so for all we know, Pandora is the absolute first Immortal to attempt a refresh.

I would say her refresh is experiment and that in past, immortals either decided to leave the emotional attachments or were forced to reset (after breaking rules) without the option to do any customization.

Probably the full reset is easier - in fact, it might took them some effort to develop the "proper reset" protocol, because obviously the easiest option is the improper reset, doesn't need ANY preparations at all ...

 

[Scotty 1,061]

6 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Also, yes, it's possible Adrian is the only Elf alive, but he's nowhere near only Elf ever. It seems very likely that there were much more Elves in past, but, well, they are long-lived, not immortal.

Well, considering the fact that "Wizards, Seers, those with magical affinities" are descended from Immortal/Human hookups, it's a pretty safe bet that there were more elves at some point. New Elves being born would have likely dropped off after Immortals decided on restricting themselves. I guess the question would be, were there still Elves around in Abraham's time? Possibly near end of life when Adrian was born? Assuming Adrian was born during Abraham's time that is.

[mlooney 3,417]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Also, yes, it's possible Adrian is the only Elf alive, but he's nowhere near only Elf ever. It seems very likely that there were much more Elves in past, but, well, they are long-lived, not immortal.

He can't be the only elf left alive, there are to many wizards and persons with magical abilities.  Granted the blood lines that result in wizards and persons with magical abilities  might all be started by elves that are now dead, but it seems unlikely that there was a mass die off of elves.

[hkmaly 490]

On 4/10/2020 at 7:09 PM, mlooney said:

On 4/10/2020 at 5:51 PM, hkmaly said:

Also, yes, it's possible Adrian is the only Elf alive, but he's nowhere near only Elf ever. It seems very likely that there were much more Elves in past, but, well, they are long-lived, not immortal.

He can't be the only elf left alive, there are to many wizards and persons with magical abilities.  Granted the blood lines that result in wizards and persons with magical abilities  might all be started by elves that are now dead, but it seems unlikely that there was a mass die off of elves.

Depending on when first elf appeared, it might've not been that massive. Like, if there were four elves every millennium since -12000BC (neolithic times), then Adrian being only one alive wouldn't be that far from that average and the total numbers would still be over fifty.

EDIT: Note that I see this as "minimal" hypothetical scenario, I think there were more elves than that - but I can't prove that.

[ijuin 572]

Abraham being aware of Elves even being a thing probably means that they were once more numerous than a mere few dozen. Rare enough that the past 300 or so years of "Magic is fictional" policy by most human governments has allowed them to hide and fade from memory into legend, yes, but not so rare that there would ever have been anything like a comprehensive list of all Elves known to the Wizarding community.

[hkmaly 490]

13 hours ago, ijuin said:

Abraham being aware of Elves even being a thing probably means that they were once more numerous than a mere few dozen. Rare enough that the past 300 or so years of "Magic is fictional" policy by most human governments has allowed them to hide and fade from memory into legend, yes, but not so rare that there would ever have been anything like a comprehensive list of all Elves known to the Wizarding community.

This is better argument that the number of wizards and persons with magical abilities , but I still wouldn't rule out relatively small number of elves still getting to be "famous". Look at our mythology: there are perhaps few dozens Greek heroes claiming to be children of gods (with Zeus being that god in roughly half cases). Granted, with them concentrated in relatively short time period already suggest that at least in that time, there were more elves on Earth than in my "minimal" estimate (assuming that those heroes WERE elves in EGS history - they might also be fairies themselves or whatever Heka is) but I don't agree there would need to be more of them than few dozen at once, and it IS possible that the times Greek mythology was about were single time with most elves around.

Now, quite a lot of Greek heroes died, and there were wars which could easily killed more.

(Speaking about which, yes, Adrian was not able to enter military ... because magic was not involved. It's possible that in, say, Trojan war, elves were free to fight BECAUSE there were some on both sides. Or the rules changed since then.)

[ijuin 572]

A few dozen in any given culture at any given time, sure, but across all of human history and prehistory there may have been several thousand.

[hkmaly 490]

5 hours ago, ijuin said:

A few dozen in any given culture at any given time, sure, but across all of human history and prehistory there may have been several thousand.

Not necessarily.

Current number of elves is low, despite the claims that they are infertile, which should ENCOURAGE making them. This suggest that either higher number of elves is not normal and was caused by some additional motivation which disappeared (like, it became fad to have some), OR that they became problem and as reaction to that problem fairies stopped making them (so much), either based on remembering it's not good idea or due to some rule change making it harder.

Now, assuming that Greek heroes WERE elves, it's obvious the elves were not problem before. That would suggest their numbers was not so big before that either.

Note also that in time of Ancient Greek, there were perhaps three "cultures" on whole Earth - one around mediterranean sea, one somewhere in south-east asia and one in and around middle america. Like, ok, Egypt and Greece were not completely same culture, but they had close contact, influenced each other a lot and would allow contact between elves. Actually even the south-east asia culture was connected to the mediterranean one.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Not necessarily.

Current number of elves is low, despite the claims that they are infertile, which should ENCOURAGE making them. This suggest that either higher number of elves is not normal and was caused by some additional motivation which disappeared (like, it became fad to have some), OR that they became problem and as reaction to that problem fairies stopped making them (so much), either based on remembering it's not good idea or due to some rule change making it harder.

Now, assuming that Greek heroes WERE elves, it's obvious the elves were not problem before. That would suggest their numbers was not so big before that either.

Note also that in time of Ancient Greek, there were perhaps three "cultures" on whole Earth - one around mediterranean sea, one somewhere in south-east asia and one in and around middle america. Like, ok, Egypt and Greece were not completely same culture, but they had close contact, influenced each other a lot and would allow contact between elves. Actually even the south-east asia culture was connected to the mediterranean one.

On nagging question behind all of this is, what is the immortals' motivation to procreate with humans? Do they enjoy sex? Is it at least interesting? If so, can they have sex without involving a mortal? It's maybe implied that some of them form couples. Wouldn't that be all around better?

Take Pandora's case, she got pregnant. Doesn't that limit her options for the gestation period? Can she become incorporeal without endangering the fetus?

If you get past all of this, and it is entirely positive, then why aren't these bored immortals doing it more? Shouldn't such a world be overrun with elves and wizards?

 

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

9 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Shouldn't such a world be overrun with elves and wizards?

Well, there is a possibility that is a little distressing

Immortals, Elves, and Humans are just genetically similar enough that there can sometimes be successful reproduction
But the odds against such a mating producing a live birth, let alone such a child surviving to adulthood, are astronomical

In Victorian Britain, one out of three children born would not reach adulthood
If this was due to Dysentery, Smog, Malnutrition, or a Not-Exactly-Human parent wouldn't necessarily be investigated too closely

If an Elf and a Human produced a child that quickly (by Elf standards) died, that would re-enforce the idea among Elves that they could not reproduce

[ijuin 572]

A good point--we do not have any information that Elves are resistant to mundane forms of death other than the kind that comes from Old Age. They might succumb to disease, accidents, etc. much like Mortal humans, barring any magic-based protection.

[hkmaly 490]

10 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

On nagging question behind all of this is, what is the immortals' motivation to procreate with humans? Do they enjoy sex? Is it at least interesting? If so, can they have sex without involving a mortal? It's maybe implied that some of them form couples. Wouldn't that be all around better?

You don't know what sex between two immortals produce.

On the other hand, even humans can have sex without getting pregnant.

It's possible they have children just because they consider it part of the "love" package. Or because they like having children.

10 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Take Pandora's case, she got pregnant. Doesn't that limit her options for the gestation period? Can she become incorporeal without endangering the fetus?

I would expect that some limitation would be the case, yes. On the other hand, she limited herself completely voluntarily before.

10 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

If you get past all of this, and it is entirely positive, then why aren't these bored immortals doing it more? Shouldn't such a world be overrun with elves and wizards?

Maybe it is?

Seriously, even with just few dozen elves few thousand years ago, there should be fairy genes in basically everyone on the planet. Of course, not everyone with fairy genes is wizard.

And remember that unnatural hair color are a thing in EGS universe. If those hair colors were related to fertility problems, someone would notice. If there is some problem in reproduction, it likely affects just first few generations, maybe even JUST the elves (direct children of fairies).

57 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Well, there is a possibility that is a little distressing

Immortals, Elves, and Humans are just genetically similar enough that there can sometimes be successful reproduction
But the odds against such a mating producing a live birth, let alone such a child surviving to adulthood, are astronomical

In Victorian Britain, one out of three children born would not reach adulthood
If this was due to Dysentery, Smog, Malnutrition, or a Not-Exactly-Human parent wouldn't necessarily be investigated too closely

I would expect that most elves would be capable enough to not let their children starve.

But, yes ...

16 minutes ago, ijuin said:

A good point--we do not have any information that Elves are resistant to mundane forms of death other than the kind that comes from Old Age. They might succumb to disease, accidents, etc. much like Mortal humans, barring any magic-based protection.

... it is possible that diseases are as dangerous to elves and their children as to mortals. Accidents almost certainly are.

And even if they had better than average immune system or better regeneration (or reached that effect using magic), live in past was dangerous and percentage of people surviving until old age became issue was not so high.

BTW, I don't think immortals are genetically that much similar to human. It's quite obvious that there is some effect causing elves being very different from their parents and their children even more so. Assuming it's genetical (which I don't think it is: I think it's magic - and after all, Uryuom egg can mix different species, Immortals can have similar ability), maybe fairies have more than 23 pairs of chromosomes but 23 of them are compatible with humans, elves have just one chromosome of those additional kind instead of two but still get some effect, and their children have standard number of chromosomes and are mortal.

1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

If an Elf and a Human produced a child that quickly (by Elf standards) died, that would re-enforce the idea among Elves that they could not reproduce

Dying in fifty years would be quickly by Elf standards, wouldn't it? I don't think they would call it "can not reproduce", however.

 

[Darth Fluffy 302]

23 minutes ago, ijuin said:

A good point--we do not have any information that Elves are resistant to mundane forms of death other than the kind that comes from Old Age. They might succumb to disease, accidents, etc. much like Mortal humans, barring any magic-based protection.

Tedd has mentioned (s)he doesn't like using magic for medical-ish reasons, but never explained why. It could be something like Bilbo and the One Ring, his life is lengthened, but at a cost; it was described like stretching what life he had, rather than adding to it.

So genetically, immortals can breed with humans. This does not exactly say that they were once human, but it kind of leads that way; like they might be some sort of ascended human, awakened ++. I'm guessing that Dan will decide on a canon backstory if and when it's necessary.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

You don't know what sex between two immortals produce.

Did you see the question, "If so, can they have sex without involving a mortal?" ?  Not only do we not know what sex between two immortals produces, we don't know that they can or do have sex with each other. Canon is they are aware of each other, but mostly avoid each other as a threat, don't treat each other particularly well (what we would call low social skills) and occasionally hang out as a couple, which could be like spousal, or could be sibs, or something else? So even if it is possible, it may be something they generally do not desire.

It might be something like they have to become physical, and very vulnerable, to have sex.

What they produce, if anything, should be not human, and not an elf, since how those are made is defined in canon. So I'm guessing, another immortal, or a different kind of elf that was overlooked. Or maybe an aberration. That would fit, low ethical standards and such, but seems unlikely.