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mlooney

Story Monday, May 25, 2020

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Just now, mlooney said:

I actually knew that.  However, in case I wasn't clear, I was using the EGS Larry as the example Larry, equating him to the Larry the Stooge but saying that EGS Larry wasn't good enough to be a 3S Larry but was in fact the 3rd stooge.  Clear as mud, right?

3S Larry is definitely the Shaggy Stooge. EGS Larry is more the Stan Laurel to EGS Rich's Oliver Hardy, at least by physical types.

Wednesday's comic is up, and I started a topic for it.

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6 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Wednesday's comic is up, and I started a topic for it.

So did I, about 45 minutes before you did...

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11 hours ago, Scotty said:
20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Actually ... Tedd DID commented about Susan's fairy spell when she just modified it without casting anything.

That might be confirmation that even adjusting the parameters of a spell is still using the spell. Tedd may not have seen Susan turn on the machine, but she saw Susan reprogram it.

Still leaves open the question of which other spells can be learned when adjusted.

11 hours ago, Scotty said:
20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I have better idea: Maybe she wants to trade. Exchange spell for spell.

Maybe, she was very interested in transformation spells, she may think that Tedd has access to a fair number of them.

And she's right. Tedd can give her enormous number of transformation spells.

11 hours ago, mlooney said:
11 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Camdin as leader? Well, no. Camdin is too much of a flake. The nameless person Luke called after seeing Grace's aura was focused and assertive; that's the person who'd be the leader. Most likely Camdin is the shaggy gross guy because he's made some unwelcome passes at Jay.

I can see that, however the way Camdin was acting towards Luke indicated to me that he was in some sort of leadership position.  Could be I've had too many flaky leaders in my past.

As to Camdin being "shaggy gross guy", assuming not a leader, due to making passes at Jay, that fits.

Hmmm ... ok, was going to dismiss the possibility she's part of Luke's group, but explained like this it would be possible.

Or, well ...

12 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

because he hasn't paid for all the pizza they've shared with him

... who do you think BROUGHT those pizzas? I can totally see her delivering pizzas to them and Camdin not being careful enough.

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11 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

who do you think BROUGHT those pizzas? I can totally see her delivering pizzas to them and Camdin not being careful enough.

Oh, good idea.  Would explain why Jay thought of him a Shaggy gross guy.  And if he cast the spell as she was leaving, thinking she was out of sight that could explain how she got the spell.  What we don't know is how long it takes for a EGS wizard to get a spell.  Will just seeing it being cast do it or does it take an amount of setup before hand to get the spell?

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7 minutes ago, mlooney said:
21 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

who do you think BROUGHT those pizzas? I can totally see her delivering pizzas to them and Camdin not being careful enough.

Oh, good idea.  Would explain why Jay thought of him a Shaggy gross guy.  And if he cast the spell as she was leaving, thinking she was out of sight that could explain how she got the spell.  What we don't know is how long it takes for a EGS wizard to get a spell.  Will just seeing it being cast do it or does it take an amount of setup before hand to get the spell?

IMHO it was already said or at least implied that it depends on how difficult the spell is, with simplest spells definitely being possible to learn from single observation.

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25 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

IMHO it was already said or at least implied that it depends on how difficult the spell is, with simplest spells definitely being possible to learn from single observation.

So that leaves the question how simple a spell is converting your body and mind to smoke?

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2 hours ago, mlooney said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

IMHO it was already said or at least implied that it depends on how difficult the spell is, with simplest spells definitely being possible to learn from single observation.

So that leaves the question how simple a spell is converting your body and mind to smoke?

Well, yeah. Saying it like this makes it sound hard, but maybe it's not that hard?

1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

I can think of a lot of ways of converting a human into smoke

The hard part is restructuring that smoke back into a human

No, the hard part is to keep the human conscious and able to move in direction he wants while smoke.

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As Sam said, "Where's your brain when you're smoke?" Maintaining a sapient mind and keeping it running without a structure to support it is going to require that the magic do most of the heavy lifting there.

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34 minutes ago, ijuin said:

As Sam said, "Where's your brain when you're smoke?" Maintaining a sapient mind and keeping it running without a structure to support it is going to require that the magic do most of the heavy lifting there.

... it's even possible it requires constant adjustments of the spell, making the spell easier to copy ...

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8 hours ago, hkmaly said:
11 hours ago, mlooney said:

So that leaves the question how simple a spell is converting your body and mind to smoke?

Well, yeah. Saying it like this makes it sound hard, but maybe it's not that hard?

I seems to me that the spell would be fast to cast but take a lot of mental energy to keep going.  That strikes me as being one that would take just a second to learn, but quite a while to master.

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1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

So it's the Othello Game of Spells?

Something like that.  I was just thinking that keeping your self together when you were smoke might take some mental energy.

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On 5/28/2020 at 1:07 AM, ijuin said:

As Sam said, "Where's your brain when you're smoke?" Maintaining a sapient mind and keeping it running without a structure to support it is going to require that the magic do most of the heavy lifting there.

 

12 hours ago, mlooney said:

Something like that.  I was just thinking that keeping your self together when you were smoke might take some mental energy.

 

I don't think it takes mental energy and constant concentration for a few reasons.

  • You couldn't do it; if you had to keep your components organized, it would be too much.
  • Camdin couldn't do it at all; just saying,
  • Smoke wasn't focusing on herself, she was interacting with Sam and Grace. If she was in deep concentration, the conversation would have gone differently.

It basically functions like an illusion, like wearing a mask over who you are. It does not function like actual smoke. It does not dissipate.

I'd be curious to know how far the smoke analog goes. Can you flow through a screen door without opening it? We haven't seen the smoke form interact with anything. If it is actually like smoke in a physical sense, your body has to be recorded somewhere, and your actual mass has to be preserved.

When you're done your body mass stays close to what it was, if not the same; neither Camdin nor Jay looked emaciated.

It might work like a variant of the fairy doll spell, maybe you are laying somewhere and the smoke form travels. I did not get the impression that this is the case, Smoke seems to be there in the moment interacting with Sam and Grace.

It would make sense if it was an illusion. That would explain the chin scratching. I suspect it's not, though.

 

On 5/27/2020 at 8:55 PM, hkmaly said:

... who do you think BROUGHT those pizzas? I can totally see her delivering pizzas to them and Camdin not being careful enough.

Good point. I think you're spot on.

 

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2 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:
13 hours ago, mlooney said:

Something like that.  I was just thinking that keeping your self together when you were smoke might take some mental energy.

I don't think it takes mental energy and constant concentration for a few reasons.

  • You couldn't do it; if you had to keep your components organized, it would be too much.
  • Camdin couldn't do it at all; just saying,
  • Smoke wasn't focusing on herself, she was interacting with Sam and Grace. If she was in deep concentration, the conversation would have gone differently.

There is definitely some sort of autopilot taking care of this. Note that there must be one for extreme size changes as well (not what TF gun does, but what Rhoda can do) because if you examine how it must be working on particle level there is lot going on as well.

3 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

That would explain the chin scratching.

... this actually shows how GOOD the autopilot is.

4 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I'd be curious to know how far the smoke analog goes. Can you flow through a screen door without opening it? We haven't seen the smoke form interact with anything. If it is actually like smoke in a physical sense, your body has to be recorded somewhere, and your actual mass has to be preserved.

Presumably, you can do all sort of stuff only possible while actual smoke, but you need to focus on THAT, because you are effectively disabling part of autopilot.

5 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

your body has to be recorded somewhere, and your actual mass has to be preserved.

When you're done your body mass stays close to what it was, if not the same; neither Camdin nor Jay looked emaciated.

Some mass might be going to where most of Grace's mass goes when she's full squirrel. Along with all information necessary to reconstruct your body. Remember, this is enchantment: if the spell expires, fails or something, you will automatically return to human form, just like Not-Tengu did.

The smoke form is not that much harder than other spells we already saw: it makes really obvious how some aspect of how EGS universe works are complicated, but the same aspect needs to work in complicated way for other spells as well - it only needs more thinking to realize that.

 

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30 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The smoke form is not that much harder than other spells we already saw: it makes really obvious how some aspect of how EGS universe works are complicated, but the same aspect needs to work in complicated way for other spells as well - it only needs more thinking to realize that.

If it is an illusion instead of being actually turned into a smoke-like substance, then the person is "smoke" to the same degree that the Fire Men were "on fire". The illusion could maintain not only the smoke-person shape, but possibly a "formless smoke-cloud" shape and even a "barely visible dispersed smoke-cloud" shape. Meanwhile, the "real" body is selectively intangible to normal matter, allowing passage through obstacles and immunity to kinetic attacks.

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9 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... this actually shows how GOOD the autopilot is.

Except, why scratch your chin if you don't feel it? It's more than just autopilot, there's a tactile feedback.

 

9 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Some mass might be going to where most of Grace's mass goes when she's full squirrel. Along with all information necessary to reconstruct your body. Remember, this is enchantment: if the spell expires, fails or something, you will automatically return to human form, just like Not-Tengu did.

The smoke form is not that much harder than other spells we already saw: it makes really obvious how some aspect of how EGS universe works are complicated, but the same aspect needs to work in complicated way for other spells as well - it only needs more thinking to realize that.

Yes, I agree, and would point out that this is less than scientific. You can look at it from "Where does the mass go/come from" or "If your mass remains the same, then your density changes; do you leave deeper footprints on the beach when you're smaller?" "Why isn't there a big nuclear flash?" "When you change size, do you have fewer/more brain cells? - if not, why isn't your head grotesquely the same size it was? - If so, why aren't you dumber when you're smaller, or confused by the lack of structure when you're larger." "For that matter, how does squirrel Grace remember how to change back, or even that she should?" "Does gender change go down to the genetic level? Where does the extra genetic material come from? Is it a legit extension into an X chromosome/redaction into a Y?"

I have to go with, 'put brain on hold, it isn't adding to the entertainment', to some degree. "We view the laws of physics more as polite suggestions."

 

9 hours ago, ijuin said:

If it is an illusion instead of being actually turned into a smoke-like substance, then the person is "smoke" to the same degree that the Fire Men were "on fire". The illusion could maintain not only the smoke-person shape, but possibly a "formless smoke-cloud" shape and even a "barely visible dispersed smoke-cloud" shape. Meanwhile, the "real" body is selectively intangible to normal matter, allowing passage through obstacles and immunity to kinetic attacks.

I had forgotten the fire guys. That is a good point.

 

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16 hours ago, ijuin said:
17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

The smoke form is not that much harder than other spells we already saw: it makes really obvious how some aspect of how EGS universe works are complicated, but the same aspect needs to work in complicated way for other spells as well - it only needs more thinking to realize that.

If it is an illusion instead of being actually turned into a smoke-like substance, then the person is "smoke" to the same degree that the Fire Men were "on fire". The illusion could maintain not only the smoke-person shape, but possibly a "formless smoke-cloud" shape and even a "barely visible dispersed smoke-cloud" shape. Meanwhile, the "real" body is selectively intangible to normal matter, allowing passage through obstacles and immunity to kinetic attacks.

That's not really illusion (compare to what Tedd says about illusions) but redefining the point as "it can be similar effect to how Fire Men were not really on fire", you may be right.

6 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... this actually shows how GOOD the autopilot is.

Except, why scratch your chin if you don't feel it? It's more than just autopilot, there's a tactile feedback.

There is autopilot which also provides emulation of tactile feedback.

I didn't mean that the autopilot made her scratched her chin. I meant that the autopilot made the scratching work.

6 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Yes, I agree, and would point out that this is less than scientific. You can look at it from "Where does the mass go/come from" or "If your mass remains the same, then your density changes; do you leave deeper footprints on the beach when you're smaller?" "Why isn't there a big nuclear flash?" "When you change size, do you have fewer/more brain cells? - if not, why isn't your head grotesquely the same size it was? - If so, why aren't you dumber when you're smaller, or confused by the lack of structure when you're larger." "For that matter, how does squirrel Grace remember how to change back, or even that she should?" "Does gender change go down to the genetic level? Where does the extra genetic material come from? Is it a legit extension into an X chromosome/redaction into a Y?"

I have to go with, 'put brain on hold, it isn't adding to the entertainment', to some degree. "We view the laws of physics more as polite suggestions."

You are confusing science with laws of physics.

Remember that any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science. Unlike some universes, where magic is fundamentally chaotic and actively avoids understanding, in EGS, magic works by following laws more fundamental than the laws of physics. Granted, lot of that seems to be work of Will of magic, but even THAT seems to be limited by laws which can be revealed by using scientific approach on magic, AS TEDD IS DOING.

All the questions you asked HAVE answer. Sure, Dan might not know that answer, but he made the universe so the answer is supposed to exists AND be at least theoretically discoverable.

(Speaking about which, you stops being so concerned about the hypothesis of conversation of energy when you accept that Dan, with normal caloric input of human, managed to create not one but multiple universes. Not that he would be record holder in that regard.)

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17 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

(Speaking about which, you stops being so concerned about the hypothesis of conversation of energy when you accept that Dan, with normal caloric input of human, managed to create not one but multiple universes. Not that he would be record holder in that regard.)

If you count game worlds or game universes I've done over 3 dozen in the last 5 years.  Some of which have actually been seen by people other than me.

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27 minutes ago, mlooney said:
45 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

(Speaking about which, you stops being so concerned about the hypothesis of conversation of energy when you accept that Dan, with normal caloric input of human, managed to create not one but multiple universes. Not that he would be record holder in that regard.)

If you count game worlds or game universes I've done over 3 dozen in the last 5 years.  Some of which have actually been seen by people other than me.

I don't think THAT would be record either. If you want name, I would guess Gary Gygax may have chance ... unless you count worlds created indirectly, in which case it's definitely Roger Zelazny, who specifically created uncountable number of universes.

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Just now, hkmaly said:

I don't think THAT would be record either.

I wasn't claiming it as a record, just pointing out that creating universes is something some people do for fun.

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3 minutes ago, mlooney said:
5 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think THAT would be record either.

I wasn't claiming it as a record, just pointing out that creating universes is something some people do for fun.

... wait what? What OTHER reason would anyone have for creating universe? Of course it's for fun. I assume it was and hopefully still is fun for Dan as well.
You think OUR universe was created for some other reason?

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Just now, hkmaly said:

What OTHER reason would anyone have for creating universe?

I know of writers and game designers that don't think of world building as being fun, but something you have to do to get to the fun parts of writing or game design.  In general, however, it shows when a game designer thinks of world design as "just part of the job" as there tends to be odd holes in the fluff about the game world.

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4 minutes ago, mlooney said:
8 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

What OTHER reason would anyone have for creating universe?

I know of writers and game designers that don't think of world building as being fun, but something you have to do to get to the fun parts of writing or game design.

Hmmm ... ok, in that sense yes, although wouldn't those other parts be technically also part of world building?

5 minutes ago, mlooney said:

In general, however, it shows when a game designer thinks of world design as "just part of the job" as there tends to be odd holes in the fluff about the game world.

Right. There are holes in EGS word as well, but I know what you mean ; Dan is at least trying, lot of game designers don't care, and the number and severity of holes matches that.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Hmmm ... ok, in that sense yes, although wouldn't those other parts be technically also part of world building?

Well, some writers will tell you that story telling isn't part of world building and that it's the important part of writing fiction.  A RPG designer that has that sort of attitude will tend to write very railroady adventures or rule sets that do not easily support sandbox gaming.  I'm all about sandboxing.  Just as an example, based on my experience, D&D 3.x and Pathfinder support sandboxing fairly well.  D&D 4 really doesn't and D&D 5 supports it quite nicely.   Traveller and it's offspring, of course, truly support sandbox universes.

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