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partner555

Story Friday Nov 11, 2016

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Just for the record, I with draw all my comment about the reliability of Grace remembering her dreams correctly.
I also suspect that all the main 8 and possibly every one that Grace recalls being marked in her dreams will be tested.  Other than the main 8 I suspect it might be covertly, but that might be difficult do the the fact the magic detector wand makes a noise.

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15 minutes ago, Stature said:

Five billion ways? Feh, I can narrow it down to sixteen (or twenty-three, better). :demonicduck:

Yet why is Tedd filled with dread?

Because 1) if Box's story is true, that means they will have to get rid of the magic clog that is allowing his devices to work so well, and 2) because of the possibility of others among the recently Marked having Awakened as well beyond just Justin. (Notice his phrasing: 'someone like Justin'.)

This could include Rhoda. She doesn't need five billion ways. She just needs one.

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Five billion ways also certainly means that the awakening doesn't need an emotional trigger and Rhoda could very well have...awakened in her sleep... if that makes any sense. :)

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4 hours ago, Stature said:

Five billion ways? Feh, I can narrow it down to sixteen (or twenty-three, better). :demonicduck:

Yet why is Tedd filled with dread?

Because he wants to make magic available for everyone, and if magic can (and will) change it's rules to prevent that, then he can never achieve it.

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Considering magic's flair from the dramatic, plus the mischief making habits of certain immortals, how can Grace be so certain that magic marks will disappear when the subject it awakened?  Yes it happened to Susan, but everything else in life has exceptions, why not magic?

For example, PCR Box will mark someone without their knowledge or consent.  Why could she not then awaken someone previously marked, but keep their mark intact?

If you have some meddling kids poking around matters that should not concern them, and they think they know how part of the magic system works, why not throw them into confusion by leaving them a clue that is meaningless or cosmetic?

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1 hour ago, TehEpicDuckeh said:

And Rhoda's awakening apparently did happen by itself.

Could you expand on that?  'Cause I still think an Immortal did it.

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Just now, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

If you have some meddling kids poking around matters that should not concern them, and they think they know how part of the magic system works, why not throw them into confusion by leaving them a clue that is meaningless or cosmetic?

Pandora awakened Justin so that it would throw off Justin and Luke, since Luke swore that Justin had a mark based on his aura, that also threw off Grace when she believed her dreams told her Justin was marked, if Pandora didn't come back to get Sarah's help, Grace would have continued questioning the validity of her dreams.

Just now, Vorlonagent said:
Just now, TehEpicDuckeh said:

And Rhoda's awakening apparently did happen by itself.

Could you expand on that?  'Cause I still think an Immortal did it.

It's like I said a few posts earlier, if there are soo many ways to awakening, Rhoda could have had a perfectly normal awakening as in she simply reached the energy level needed on her own and one morning noticed her mark was gone, and was able to to something different with her magic, why does it HAVE to be by a strong emotional event or an Immortal that did it?

We already have 2 instances of immortals awakening people, 1 instance of an emotional event, and 2 instances of improper awakenings, we were due for a different way to awaken. ;)

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9 minutes ago, ijuin said:

Given that Pandora has declared Rhoda to be 100% S-rank, Rhoda might fall under the "really (magically) strong" heading . . .

Dang it! There you sank my theory that she'd been practicing extensively with enlarging cupcakes to the max and shrinking herself to the min just so she could dive into the cream filling... Which wouldn't have been the least bit hard to explain if someone walked in on her...
 

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6 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Considering magic's flair from the dramatic, plus the mischief making habits of certain immortals, how can Grace be so certain that magic marks will disappear when the subject it awakened?  Yes it happened to Susan, but everything else in life has exceptions, why not magic?

For example, PCR Box will mark someone without their knowledge or consent.  Why could she not then awaken someone previously marked, but keep their mark intact?

If you have some meddling kids poking around matters that should not concern them, and they think they know how part of the magic system works, why not throw them into confusion by leaving them a clue that is meaningless or cosmetic?

Word of Dan says that marks disappear when the subject is awakened. If that is a rule of the world (and marks have been around for quite some time) then it is probably the kind of knowledge that would be easily accessible to someone living in the same house with the "Endless Barrel of Exposition", and Tedd knew all sorts of things about them, so clearly they have access to a decent amount of information on the subject. Magic marks are a part of the current laws of magic, which have remained unchanged long enough for people to forget that they can change. It is probably possible to keep or recreate the magic marks after awakening if you want to (if only because changing appearance in some way is apparently the most common type of magic anywhere ever according to the FAQ, so giving yourself a pseudo birthmark in whatever shape you want is probably not a difficult spell to develop. So, you could probably keep your mark afterwards, but it would be through magical effort, not just "the mark stays because". So Susan could probably develop a spell to recreate her mark if she wanted to, but until she does, the venus symbol is gone (or she could get an actual tattoo or what have you)

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2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Pandora awakened Justin so that it would throw off Justin and Luke, since Luke swore that Justin had a mark based on his aura, that also threw off Grace when she believed her dreams told her Justin was marked, if Pandora didn't come back to get Sarah's help, Grace would have continued questioning the validity of her dreams.

It's like I said a few posts earlier, if there are soo many ways to awakening, Rhoda could have had a perfectly normal awakening as in she simply reached the energy level needed on her own and one morning noticed her mark was gone, and was able to to something different with her magic, why does it HAVE to be by a strong emotional event or an Immortal that did it?

We already have 2 instances of immortals awakening people, 1 instance of an emotional event, and 2 instances of improper awakenings, we were due for a different way to awaken. ;)

We might be due, but we currently do not know of any way for an individual to awaken without realizing it except for an Immortal doing it.

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Basically, I'm fairly certain that the rules by which magic has operated for as long as anyone can remember have been fairly well studied by somebody. The basic idea behind the scientific method has been around since ancient Greece, at least, so it seems ridiculous that no one would be testing and taking notes about this stuff during all that time. I'm sure the DGB has access to libraries worth of research on the subject, which would give Mr. Verres, and, through him, Tedd and Grace, that same access. So common magical conditions are probably relatively well researched. Also, I just remembered this strip, were the whole dewitchery diamond fiasco starts because Grace can just research this stuff from home. Knowledge about the way magic and aspects thereof work is not difficult for this group to access.

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13 hours ago, partner555 said:

http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2273

At last, Justin will be tested for it.

Hopefully. Finally.

Also, just when we found Rhoda awakened, we have summary of how can one awaken in main story ...

13 hours ago, mlooney said:

Other than the main 8 I suspect it might be covertly, but that might be difficult do the the fact the magic detector wand makes a noise.

Hmmm ... calibrate Luke and then use him? I mean, if they show him several marked and awakened people and tell who is which, he may learn how to distinguish them ...

12 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
13 hours ago, Stature said:

Yet why is Tedd filled with dread?

Because 1) if Box's story is true, that means they will have to get rid of the magic clog that is allowing his devices to work so well, and 2) because of the possibility of others among the recently Marked having Awakened as well beyond just Justin. (Notice his phrasing: 'someone like Justin'.)

Also, 3) he just realized they were very sloppy.

11 hours ago, Scotty said:

Five billion ways also certainly means that the awakening doesn't need an emotional trigger and Rhoda could very well have...awakened in her sleep... if that makes any sense. :)

Actually, five billion might easily be number of different emotions which can awaken you ... if not for the previous panel where he clearly said you can awaken by training a lot.

8 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Considering magic's flair from the dramatic, plus the mischief making habits of certain immortals, how can Grace be so certain that magic marks will disappear when the subject it awakened?  Yes it happened to Susan, but everything else in life has exceptions, why not magic?

For example, PCR Box will mark someone without their knowledge or consent.  Why could she not then awaken someone previously marked, but keep their mark intact?

If you have some meddling kids poking around matters that should not concern them, and they think they know how part of the magic system works, why not throw them into confusion by leaving them a clue that is meaningless or cosmetic?

Maybe she's so sure because Edward confirmed it. And making fake mark might be violation of "empower and guide" or some other immortal rule.

1 hour ago, Alwaysnewguy said:

Word of Dan says that marks disappear when the subject is awakened. If that is a rule of the world (and marks have been around for quite some time) then it is probably the kind of knowledge that would be easily accessible to someone living in the same house with the "Endless Barrel of Exposition", and Tedd knew all sorts of things about them, so clearly they have access to a decent amount of information on the subject. Magic marks are a part of the current laws of magic, which have remained unchanged long enough for people to forget that they can change.

... yes.

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

Pandora awakened Justin so that it would throw off Justin and Luke, since Luke swore that Justin had a mark based on his aura, that also threw off Grace when she believed her dreams told her Justin was marked, if Pandora didn't come back to get Sarah's help, Grace would have continued questioning the validity of her dreams.

Pandora certainly welcomed that confusion and maybe even predicted it, but her main reason to awaken Justin was IMHO so he can make more "chaos".

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

We already have 2 instances of immortals awakening people, 1 instance of an emotional event, and 2 instances of improper awakenings, we were due for a different way to awaken. ;)

But, see, 2-1-2, we still need one emotional event.

1 hour ago, Alwaysnewguy said:

Basically, I'm fairly certain that the rules by which magic has operated for as long as anyone can remember have been fairly well studied by somebody. The basic idea behind the scientific method has been around since ancient Greece, at least, so it seems ridiculous that no one would be testing and taking notes about this stuff during all that time. I'm sure the DGB has access to libraries worth of research on the subject, which would give Mr. Verres, and, through him, Tedd and Grace, that same access. So common magical conditions are probably relatively well researched. Also, I just remembered this strip, were the whole dewitchery diamond fiasco starts because Grace can just research this stuff from home. Knowledge about the way magic and aspects thereof work is not difficult for this group to access.

... yup, seems they have access to lot of informations. Edward MIGHT though about limiting it after that incident, but that could be as dangerous as feeding Tedd misinformations.

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3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

We might be due, but we currently do not know of any way for an individual to awaken without realizing it except for an Immortal doing it.

Why would there be an implication that there's soo many ways to awaken and have awakening without realizing and without Immortal intervention not be one of them?

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

But, see, 2-1-2, we still need one emotional event.

Well, if you really want to be technical 1 of the awakening via Immortal was done with the permission of the one being awakened, and the other was done without permission.

In the case of the improper awakening, Ellen and Elliot was originally just Elliot until the diamond split them and caused the awakenings.

So it's probably more like 1-1-1-0.5-0.5

:D

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On 11/12/2016 at 7:06 PM, Scotty said:

Why would there be an implication that there's soo many ways to awaken and have awakening without realizing and without Immortal intervention not be one of them?

There could well be plenty of ways to awaken without knowing it.  We don't know what they are.  We don't even know where to look for them so we can't assess how likely Justin or Rhoda are to have lucked into one.

Our options are an Immortal or wild speculation with next to nothing to go on.  You want to speculate wildly, knock yourself out.  Personally I like Rhoda x Catalina makeouts for that.

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1 minute ago, Vorlonagent said:

There could well be plenty of ways to awaken without knowing it.  We don't know what they are.  We don't even know where to look for them so we can't assess how likely Justin or Rhoda are to have lucked into one.

Our options are an Immortal or wild speculation with next to nothing to go on.  You want to speculate wildly, knock yourself out.  Personally I like Rhoda x Catalina makeouts for that.

All we know for sure is Rhoda has been pretty discreet about her magic,  and from the looks of it, "Escape from the Mall" is the first time Rhoda's actually showing Catalina what she can do. She's obviously told Catalina about it before hand but demonstrations would have resulted in there being nudity before Rhoda awakened and learned to grow herself with her clothes, and again, that NP is the first time Catalina's seen her do that. Shrinking someone with their clothes is obviously one she'd never done before though she might have been able to for a while, lack of spellbook would make it harder for her to know when she got a new spell of course.

However Rhoda awakened, it was also done pretty discreetly, and considering it wasn't Pandora that did it, and Voltaire doing it doesn't make any sense because he'd be in "find someone to get to kill Elliot" mode and manipulating Rhoda doesn't appear to have been something he did. Adding in new Immortals to awaken people without their knowledge doesn't make any sense either, so it does make sense that Rhoda just woke up one day and noticed that her mark was gone, but she could still use magic so she didn't think about what it meant.

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14 minutes ago, Scotty said:

All we know for sure is Rhoda has been pretty discreet about her magic,  and from the looks of it, "Escape from the Mall" is the first time Rhoda's actually showing Catalina what she can do. She's obviously told Catalina about it before hand but demonstrations would have resulted in there being nudity before Rhoda awakened and learned to grow herself with her clothes, and again, that NP is the first time Catalina's seen her do that. Shrinking someone with their clothes is obviously one she'd never done before though she might have been able to for a while, lack of spellbook would make it harder for her to know when she got a new spell of course.

However Rhoda awakened, it was also done pretty discreetly, and considering it wasn't Pandora that did it, and Voltaire doing it doesn't make any sense because he'd be in "find someone to get to kill Elliot" mode and manipulating Rhoda doesn't appear to have been something he did. Adding in new Immortals to awaken people without their knowledge doesn't make any sense either, so it does make sense that Rhoda just woke up one day and noticed that her mark was gone, but she could still use magic so she didn't think about what it meant.

Voltaire would indeed have killing Elliot as a means to an end at the time of this EGS:NP.  That end is might not be his final end-goal, but a step along the way.  We really don't know why he's doing what he's doing rather than going off and having a tasty mint-julep somewhere. 

I freey admit that awakening Rhoda (or Justin for that matter) does not mesh well with Voltaire's known "kill Elliot" thing but we're really out of known options or known Immortals who could and would awaken people without their knowledge (or non-Immortal alternatives).  It's about as likely that Pandora could have awakened Rhoda and being all chaotic and random-like, promptly forgot (again, I am not saying this is likely but that were so far away from "likely" we might as well consider things on this order of unlikely).

It is possible that Awakening Rhoda fills in some other aspect of Voltaire's goals.  Certainly Voltaire isn't really concerned about keeping Magic a secret or he wouldn't have staged a fight between Elliot and Andrea at the mall.  Maybe he wants to make magic public and/or induce a change in Magic for his own purposes.  I claim nothing more than it is a theory that fits the facts.  It is probably the least-unlikely option open to us right now.

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24 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

 (or Justin for that matter)

We know how Justin awakened, Pandora herself admitted to awakening him. He's got nothing to do with Voltaire other than he happened to be there when Voltaire had Dex summon the first fire golem.

48 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

It is possible that Awakening Rhoda fills in some other aspect of Voltaire's goals.  Certainly Voltaire isn't really concerned about keeping Magic a secret or he wouldn't have staged a fight between Elliot and Andrea at the mall.  Maybe he wants to make magic public and/or induce a change in Magic for his own purposes.  I claim nothing more than it is a theory that fits the facts.  It is probably the least-unlikely option open to us right now.

Maybe he also wants magic public, he did do that whole speech about how hard it is to find someone to do his bidding and that Immortals have restricted themselves into impotence. Of course he is a lying liar so we don't know for sure if he meant that or if he was just acting so that they'd believe he didn't have something else planned. I would think though that if he was frustrated with being unable to get people to jump through hoops for him, randomly awakening Rhoda just doesn't seem to have enough "sh*ts and giggles" factor that would satisfy him. He'd want to see results much the same way Pandora wanted to see people using their spells in public and causing a commotion, and I would think that if he was going to awaken Rhoda, he'd probably offer it in exchange for Rhoda doing something for him.

I think that's the difference between Pandora and Voltaire, Pandora is frustrated by the lack of unpredictability and was trying to find things that could surprise her as was the case when she was guiding Magus initially. Voltaire on the other hand, is frustrated by the lack of freedom to mess with mortals.

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2 hours ago, Scotty said:

All we know for sure is Rhoda has been pretty discreet about her magic,  and from the looks of it, "Escape from the Mall" is the first time Rhoda's actually showing Catalina what she can do. She's obviously told Catalina about it before hand but demonstrations would have resulted in there being nudity before Rhoda awakened and learned to grow herself with her clothes, and again, that NP is the first time Catalina's seen her do that. Shrinking someone with their clothes is obviously one she'd never done before though she might have been able to for a while, lack of spellbook would make it harder for her to know when she got a new spell of course.

I think she might've shown Catalina how can she resize THINGS before, just not people.

But she might be testing her magic on her own a lot.

2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

It is possible that Awakening Rhoda fills in some other aspect of Voltaire's goals.  Certainly Voltaire isn't really concerned about keeping Magic a secret or he wouldn't have staged a fight between Elliot and Andrea at the mall.  Maybe he wants to make magic public and/or induce a change in Magic for his own purposes.  I claim nothing more than it is a theory that fits the facts.  It is probably the least-unlikely option open to us right now.

The least-unlikely option is Rhoda awakening herself, without help of other immortal. But it's true we can't rule Voltaire out completely, given how little we know about his plans. On the other hand, we know that he didn't have much of success lately (based on how frustrated he is), so if he did awaken Rhoda it likely didn't give him what he wanted from it.

 

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Maybe he also wants magic public, he did do that whole speech about how hard it is to find someone to do his bidding and that Immortals have restricted themselves into impotence. Of course he is a lying liar so we don't know for sure if he meant that or if he was just acting so that they'd believe he didn't have something else planned. I would think though that if he was frustrated with being unable to get people to jump through hoops for him, randomly awakening Rhoda just doesn't seem to have enough "sh*ts and giggles" factor that would satisfy him. He'd want to see results much the same way Pandora wanted to see people using their spells in public and causing a commotion, and I would think that if he was going to awaken Rhoda, he'd probably offer it in exchange for Rhoda doing something for him.

Much depends on how you play the odds.  The more people awakened, the more magic they're doing the harder it is to avoid notice. 

35 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The least-unlikely option is Rhoda awakening herself, without help of other immortal. But it's true we can't rule Voltaire out completely, given how little we know about his plans. On the other hand, we know that he didn't have much of success lately (based on how frustrated he is), so if he did awaken Rhoda it likely didn't give him what he wanted from it.

I can't think of a known way of self-awakening where the self doesn't notice.  Susan awakened herself and that was very angsty and dramatic.  We have no information that says anything angsty or dramatic this happened to Rhoda recently.

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