• Announcements

    • Robin

      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
hkmaly

NP Wednesday November 16, 2016

Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, EmpactWB said:
20 hours ago, Zathael said:

1) The shrink magic and growth magic will interfere with or cancel each other out over time

I think you are correct, because putting the cookie in her mouth made Rhoda start growing (note there only seems to be one bite out of the cookie and she's still chewing). I think putting shrunken Catalina in the jacket of enlarged Rhoda is gonna be all sorts of hijinks-inducing.

.... did noone read my first post?

6 hours ago, Hermann Döppes said:

I did not find the word-of-god reference I was looking for, but iirc it has been established that The Shive originally planned on accounting for mass during transformations but later decided against it, even giving a pretend reason for graces power set changing. Does anyone have better references than these? I'm pretty sure those exist.

It was explained in Q&A including note that Dan though it was already explained in Painted Black.

3 hours ago, Scotty said:
20 hours ago, Drasvin said:

I think the rookie enchanting mistake they're making is related to this. Having clothes close to your body (like when wearing them) lets the clothing benefit from your magical resistance. So logically, having a tiny person close to your body would let said person benefit from your magical resistance (and maybe vice versa).

So Rhoda's resistance may help maintain Catalina's shrunken form until they get somewhere that Catalina can attempt to return to normal.

Actually, Rhoda's resistance will help Catalina RESIST the shrunken form, meaning she will transform back quicker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Actually, Rhoda's resistance will help Catalina RESIST the shrunken form, meaning she will transform back quicker.

I meant that as long as Rhoda is able to maintain her form, it should help Catalina keep hers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Scotty said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Actually, Rhoda's resistance will help Catalina RESIST the shrunken form, meaning she will transform back quicker.

I meant that as long as Rhoda is able to maintain her form, it should help Catalina keep hers.

I understand, it's just that that's not how enchantment resistance works. At least based on what we were shown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I understand, it's just that that's not how enchantment resistance works. At least based on what we were shown.

What we were shown was that an enchantment duration can be shortened if undesirable, and also lengthened if desirable, so as long as Rhoda desired to stay enchanted, that could include Catalina's enchantment while she's in Rhoda's jacket. Considering Rhoda is confirmed awakened (and apparently S-ranked), and Catalina was just marked a short time ago (rank unknown but still a noob), Rhoda's got the stronger power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Scotty said:

What we were shown was that an enchantment duration can be shortened if undesirable, and also lengthened if desirable, so as long as Rhoda desired to stay enchanted, that could include Catalina's enchantment while she's in Rhoda's jacket. Considering Rhoda is confirmed awakened (and apparently S-ranked), and Catalina was just marked a short time ago (rank unknown but still a noob), Rhoda's got the stronger power.

I don't think being okay with an effect causes your resistance to boost the effect. Instead, being okay with an effect causes you resistance to impact the enchantment less. As seen with Not-Tengu and the guardian forms, enchantment duration is significantly affected by energy supply. So the enchantment pulls in energy to increase length and resistance(along with the expenditure to maintain the resistance) decreases the energy bound into the enchantment. How much the affected individual is okay with the effect would determine which percentage of their resistance is applied to the enchantment in question. With this model, Rhoda's and Catalina's resistances would both be acting on both enchantments.

There's also the fact that Pandora is expecting that whatever the mistake is will end in an incident. So if the mistake follows her expectations, things aren't going to go well for Rhoda's and Catalina's plan. Their resistances combining to increase duration the duration of Cat's enchant wouldn't fit that pattern.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe how magic resistance working on enchantments was more like, "if your comfortable with it and want it, it last longer." So if you WANT an enchant but it make you uncomfortable, it would still be resisted at the normal rate instead of a reduced one.

Having two enchantments up does not reduce the duration of either. Enchantments don't have upkeep as far as I am aware, once it's cast it's there till it's resisted away.

Pandora made it sound like it's something any rookie might do, not something specific to this situation but I guess the enlarging enchantment and the shrinking enchantment could interact some how.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I'm thinking is that Rhoda did an enlargement spell that affects her and her clothes.

Rhoda also did a shrinking spell that affects Catalina.

And then moved Catalina into the scope of her enlargement spell.

If the spells rub off on each other, we could see Catalina enlarging and (at least) Rhoda's jacket-front shrinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, TirusR said:

Having two enchantments up does not reduce the duration of either. Enchantments don't have upkeep as far as I am aware, once it's cast it's there till it's resisted away.

Not-Tengu was defeated by exhausting the ambient energy he was feeding into his various enchantments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Drasvin said:

I don't think being okay with an effect causes your resistance to boost the effect. Instead, being okay with an effect causes you resistance to impact the enchantment less. As seen with Not-Tengu and the guardian forms, enchantment duration is significantly affected by energy supply. So the enchantment pulls in energy to increase length and resistance(along with the expenditure to maintain the resistance) decreases the energy bound into the enchantment. How much the affected individual is okay with the effect would determine which percentage of their resistance is applied to the enchantment in question. With this model, Rhoda's and Catalina's resistances would both be acting on both enchantments.

There's also the fact that Pandora is expecting that whatever the mistake is will end in an incident. So if the mistake follows her expectations, things aren't going to go well for Rhoda's and Catalina's plan. Their resistances combining to increase duration the duration of Cat's enchant wouldn't fit that pattern.

I'm thinking resistance works both ways though, there's resistance which prevents an enchantment from taking hold or if it does, then it's reduces the duration of it, and then there's resistance which prevents cancellation of a placed enchantment. For the latter, cancellations could either by from someone attempting to dispel an enchantment from another and the other resisting the dispel, or the same can be used to prolong an enchantment. and I imagine if someone is good enough, multiple enchantments could be maintained simultaneously that way. There's plenty of ambient energy around for Rhoda to do this.

Pandora may not be expecting that Rhoda is capable of doing so, which means she's likely in for another surprise, because that's pretty much been the theme of all this, it's not so much hijinks in that Rhoda and Catalina cause a ruckus in the mall, and maybe just a little with how Catalina made a big deal out of needing to keep people from seeing her transformed, but mostly Pandora being utterly caught off guard with Rhoda's magic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Drasvin said:

There's also the fact that Pandora is expecting that whatever the mistake is will end in an incident. So if the mistake follows her expectations, things aren't going to go well for Rhoda's and Catalina's plan. Their resistances combining to increase duration the duration of Cat's enchant wouldn't fit that pattern.

Yes. And while I would prefer if we would know enough about enchantments to explain it just by that knowledge, I would consider this meta reason more important for this case.

12 hours ago, Drasvin said:
17 hours ago, TirusR said:

Having two enchantments up does not reduce the duration of either. Enchantments don't have upkeep as far as I am aware, once it's cast it's there till it's resisted away.

Not-Tengu was defeated by exhausting the ambient energy he was feeding into his various enchantments.

I think Not-Tengu required the ambient energy because he was actively overcoming resistance of those students AND his form enchantment would naturally only last few minutes because it requires too much energy to put it there on casting.

12 hours ago, Scotty said:

I'm thinking resistance works both ways though, there's resistance which prevents an enchantment from taking hold or if it does, then it's reduces the duration of it, and then there's resistance which prevents cancellation of a placed enchantment

The third effect, if it exists at all, was never called resistance.

Hmmm ... looking at Not-Tengu example, the third effect may be actively using your or ambient magic to prolong the enchantment. Something Catalina would likely be not experienced enough to do.

12 hours ago, Scotty said:

Pandora may not be expecting that Rhoda is capable of doing so, which means she's likely in for another surprise, because that's pretty much been the theme of all this, it's not so much hijinks in that Rhoda and Catalina cause a ruckus in the mall, and maybe just a little with how Catalina made a big deal out of needing to keep people from seeing her transformed, but mostly Pandora being utterly caught off guard with Rhoda's magic.

That IS possible. So far, Pandora was only one affected by any hijinks ...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I think Not-Tengu required the ambient energy because he was actively overcoming resistance of those students AND his form enchantment would naturally only last few minutes because it requires too much energy to put it there on casting.

In addition, I suspect that flying transformed consumes more magical energy than standing on the ground transformed (assuming similar transformation in the two cases).

And then he enlarged his transformation and flew faster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

The third effect, if it exists at all, was never called resistance.

Hmmm ... looking at Not-Tengu example, the third effect may be actively using your or ambient magic to prolong the enchantment. Something Catalina would likely be not experienced enough to do.

It is possible that dispels are also seen as enchantments when being put against a person's resistance and so a person could guard themselves against that just like any other enchantment, but to be able to do that without cancelling their own enchantment by accident might be tricky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "rookie mistake" might be something as simple as Rhoda discovering that the way she enlarged herself and the clothes she also enlarged everything else in her pockets such as car keys, credit card, bills and coins, mobile phone and so on. The mobile phone would probably still be working, because magic, but trying to pay something in a store might get interesting. Not being able to start or even unlock the car might not be immediately disastrous but could certainly make for an interesting situation.

Just wanted to drop this here as most people seems to be guessing that it has something to do with either the way the spells interact or with how Rhoda's and Catalina's magic resistance works.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Cpt. Obvious said:

The "rookie mistake" might be something as simple as Rhoda discovering that the way she enlarged herself and the clothes she also enlarged everything else in her pockets such as car keys, credit card, bills and coins, mobile phone and so on. The mobile phone would probably still be working, because magic, but trying to pay something in a store might get interesting. Not being able to start or even unlock the car might not be immediately disastrous but could certainly make for an interesting situation.

Just wanted to drop this here as most people seems to be guessing that it has something to do with either the way the spells interact or with how Rhoda's and Catalina's magic resistance works.
 

When they get to the car, and Catalina is out of the pocket, Rhoda could likely just return to normal before starting the car.

Then again, we don't really know which one of them drove, it could be Catalina's car in which case she'd have to be unshrunk before they can start the car, although really once they're in the car they can undo the size enchantments without much risk of someone noticing.

It's also possible that if they didn't want to risk anyone seeing them changing size, Rhoda might just take the keys out of her pocket (or Catalina takes her keys out) and returns them to normal size only.

What would be funny though is if the keys worked like the cookie in that using resized keys on the car would transfer the enchantment to the car and shrink or enlarge it. A rookie mistake for sure, but I think Rhoda would consider the possibility considering her experience with the cookie and try to avoid it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

The mobile phone would probably still be working, because magic, but trying to pay something in a store might get interesting.

Depends. There are options to pay with credit card wirelessly now. Also, they are supposed to get out of store fast, there shouldn't be any payment involved. Unless they need to pay for parking, but parking near mall is usually free, isn't it?

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

It's also possible that if they didn't want to risk anyone seeing them changing size, Rhoda might just take the keys out of her pocket (or Catalina takes her keys out) and returns them to normal size only.

That might not be possible. I mean, return to normal size just the keys. And trying to hit the exact size for the keys to work with another enchantment would be hard.

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

What would be funny though is if the keys worked like the cookie in that using resized keys on the car would transfer the enchantment to the car and shrink or enlarge it.

Considering car is bigger than person, not speaking about the key, the size change likely wouldn't be so big. Probably. Ok, can happen and would be funny.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

That might not be possible. I mean, return to normal size just the keys. And trying to hit the exact size for the keys to work with another enchantment would be hard.

It's possible that Rhoda could simply remove the enchantment from the keys. If the keys aren't on her anymore it should be treated as a separate enchantment when disenchanting them.

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Considering car is bigger than person, not speaking about the key, the size change likely wouldn't be so big. Probably. Ok, can happen and would be funny.

I want to analyze the spell for a moment. When Rhoda enchanted the cookie, it was essentially similar to the shrink sodas of Gherman Labs as in when ingested the enchantment was absorbed into the body, the soda took it further in that since it was a liquid, it could be absorbed through the skin.

Now it seems strange to think this could be possible with something else, but with magic having a will and flair for the dramatic and possibly even being trolly, I wouldn't be surprised if attempting to insert an enchanted key into the ignition would allow the enchantment to affect the car.

That said, I don't think this is the same thing as having shrunken Catalina in an enlarged jacket pocket so I don't see Rhoda's enchantment affecting Catalina's enchantment directly, the only issue I can see there being is if Rhoda does something to affect either enchantment and it gets applied to both because of their proximity to each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Scotty said:
5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

That might not be possible. I mean, return to normal size just the keys. And trying to hit the exact size for the keys to work with another enchantment would be hard.

It's possible that Rhoda could simply remove the enchantment from the keys. If the keys aren't on her anymore it should be treated as a separate enchantment when disenchanting them.

Note I said might. This was never mentioned in canon. We know that if Nanase take off her clothes, her enchantment resistance would no longer apply to them. We also know that Elliot can transform back from woman, his clothes will not transform back when he take them off nor when he transforms back, they will transform back after about a day. But we have no idea if he can transform the clothes back without transforming himself. Note that if he couldn't, it still may not be applicable, as Elliot is not able to enchant anything he's not wearing, but if he could, it would make sense Rhoda can as well. But we don't know.

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

I want to analyze the spell for a moment. When Rhoda enchanted the cookie, it was essentially similar to the shrink sodas of Gherman Labs as in when ingested the enchantment was absorbed into the body, the soda took it further in that since it was a liquid, it could be absorbed through the skin.

Considering ingestion happens in small intestine, her starting to grow while eating suggests physics and chemistry don't have much to say about it: she apparently started growing as soon as chunk of cookie entered her stomach.

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

Now it seems strange to think this could be possible with something else, but with magic having a will and flair for the dramatic and possibly even being trolly, I wouldn't be surprised if attempting to insert an enchanted key into the ignition would allow the enchantment to affect the car.

I don't see anything dramatic on that, but it would count as trolling, yes. Note that in such case the car would likely resize INCLUDING people in it, because transformation safety obviously.

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

That said, I don't think this is the same thing as having shrunken Catalina in an enlarged jacket pocket so I don't see Rhoda's enchantment affecting Catalina's enchantment directly

I do. Topologically speaking, her situation is identical to situation of the chunk of cookie. The enchantments can totally interfere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I do. Topologically speaking, her situation is identical to situation of the chunk of cookie. The enchantments can totally interfere.

The main difference, as I understand it, is that the Enlarged Rhoda/Reduced Catalina situation involves two living beings who are both enchanted, while the cookie involves an enchanted object spreading the enchantment to a living being.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, ijuin said:
29 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I do. Topologically speaking, her situation is identical to situation of the chunk of cookie. The enchantments can totally interfere.

The main difference, as I understand it, is that the Enlarged Rhoda/Reduced Catalina situation involves two living beings who are both enchanted, while the cookie involves an enchanted object spreading the enchantment to a living being.

Physical laws work identically on both living and non-living matter.

Of course, magical laws may not share this property ... although, based on boar incident, I suspect they work identically on non-living matter and animals, but differently on humans (sapient beings?).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Animals can still do things to rid themselves of (or willingly sustain) an enchantment, such as where Adrian explained that an animal will instinctively know that eating less food will speed the enchantment's expiration. I think that Magic does make a living/nonliving distinction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

But we have no idea if he can transform the clothes back without transforming himself. Note that if he couldn't, it still may not be applicable, as Elliot is not able to enchant anything he's not wearing, but if he could, it would make sense Rhoda can as well. But we don't know.

The difference between Elliot and Rhoda is Rhoda can target other people and objects to enchant, Elliot's morphs are strictly applied to himsel, so of course Elliot wouldn't be able to affect clothing that's been morphed with him, then taken off. Rhoda has the advantage of resizing anything she points her palms at, and as such should also be able to reverse and enchantment in the same manner.

 

27 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Considering ingestion happens in small intestine, her starting to grow while eating suggests physics and chemistry don't have much to say about it: she apparently started growing as soon as chunk of cookie entered her stomach.

27 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I do. Topologically speaking, her situation is identical to situation of the chunk of cookie. The enchantments can totally interfere.

I'm not talking digestion though, I'm talking chemicals that can be absorbed into the bloodstream systemically, like how it's possible for harmful toxins to enter through the pores of your skin so you're required to wear protective gloves and such when handling that material, or in the case of someone having a hypoglaecemic episode, it's recommended to put something sugary under the tongue where the sugar can be quickly absorbed into the bloodstream. The same could happen with the cookie in that as soon as Rhoda started chewing, the enchantment would start being absorbed into the body.

 

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I don't see anything dramatic on that, but it would count as trolling, yes. Note that in such case the car would likely resize INCLUDING people in it, because transformation safety obviously.

Possible, though it's also possible that anyone inside would be protected and the car would break apart instead of crushing the occupants. Like a reverse of someone affected by a growth enchantment being able to bust through concrete without being hurt.

Though I would be more inclined to think that anything inside the car would also shrink or grow just like things in pockets. Not sure if Catalina would shrink further if that happened of if she is at the absolute minimum size, we know it's the smallest Rhoda can make at the moment, but is it possible to make someone microscopic, but stacking enchants, like shrink Catalina, then put her in a box and shrink the box, then put it in another box and shrink that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, ijuin said:

Animals can still do things to rid themselves of (or willingly sustain) an enchantment, such as where Adrian explained that an animal will instinctively know that eating less food will speed the enchantment's expiration. I think that Magic does make a living/nonliving distinction.

True. So magic actually differentiate THREE cases - non-living, living and sapient. Wait. Immortals would be fourth case.

3 minutes ago, Scotty said:
48 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

But we have no idea if he can transform the clothes back without transforming himself. Note that if he couldn't, it still may not be applicable, as Elliot is not able to enchant anything he's not wearing, but if he could, it would make sense Rhoda can as well. But we don't know.

The difference between Elliot and Rhoda is Rhoda can target other people and objects to enchant, Elliot's morphs are strictly applied to himsel, so of course Elliot wouldn't be able to affect clothing that's been morphed with him, then taken off. Rhoda has the advantage of resizing anything she points her palms at, and as such should also be able to reverse and enchantment in the same manner.

Let's see: Take blue shirt. Transform to girl. Take off blue shirt, take on white. Transform to guy. Take off white shirt, take on blue one. Experiment ready to go.

5 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I'm not talking digestion though, I'm talking chemicals that can be absorbed into the bloodstream systemically, like how it's possible for harmful toxins to enter through the pores of your skin so you're required to wear protective gloves and such when handling that material, or in the case of someone having a hypoglaecemic episode, it's recommended to put something sugary under the tongue where the sugar can be quickly absorbed into the bloodstream. The same could happen with the cookie in that as soon as Rhoda started chewing, the enchantment would start being absorbed into the body.

Hmmmm ... true. Also, nitroglycerin (as a medicine for heart problems) and LSD can both be absorbed when put under the tongue. I heard.

7 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Not sure if Catalina would shrink further if that happened of if she is at the absolute minimum size, we know it's the smallest Rhoda can make at the moment, but is it possible to make someone microscopic, but stacking enchants, like shrink Catalina, then put her in a box and shrink the box, then put it in another box and shrink that?

Good question. Looking back on our discussion about how can the shrinking work physically: if she's really resized, then the limit is likely absolute. If it's done by bending space, then the limit is likely per enchantment, although you can get into problems if boundaries from stacked enchantments get too close.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now