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The Old Hack

So, is JKR a transphobe?

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3 hours ago, mlooney said:

Was there any question about this?

I believe that the point under the heaviest discussion was whether her bigotry (or that of an author or artist in general) justifies the rejection of her creations regardless of any other merits they may have possessed.

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58 minutes ago, ijuin said:

I believe that the point under the heaviest discussion was whether her bigotry (or that of an author or artist in general) justifies the rejection of her creations regardless of any other merits they may have possessed.

Forgive me for disagreeing, but I do not think anyone needs to justify either their rejection or acceptance of JKR's work. It is an individual decision and each person is free to make it on their own. I made the decision to reject JKR on the basis of my mental health; I decided to not keep reminders around of someone who considers me mentally deranged and a danger to society. Others may reject her on a different basis and still others might decide to keep her books because they are still good entertainment for them. None of these decisions are inherently right or wrong.

What is important is to openly acknowledge the problematic parts of her works and recognizing her blatant hostility towards trans men and women. If you remain aware of this, you can challenge these ideas when her books present them to you and not allow them a potentially easy foothold by just letting them pass. Defending JKR and saying "Oh, she didn't really mean to be transphobic" is basically trans erasure and supporting transphobia.

I am actually sad that I had to let these books go. I used to like them. But so be it. It is unfortunate that JKR has decided to dedicate a large part of her life to hate; she could be spending it in so many better and healthier ways.

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The underlying question, I think, is one of whether good things can come from a bad person. This would apply not only to JKR, but also to many famous historical writers and artists who are known to have been quite racist or sexist. For example, there is a recent trend in the USA of removing monuments to such people and renaming things that had been named in their honor. Should we regard the creations and legacy of such people as being metaphorically radioactive?

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2 hours ago, ijuin said:

The underlying question, I think, is one of whether good things can come from a bad person. This would apply not only to JKR, but also to many famous historical writers and artists who are known to have been quite racist or sexist. For example, there is a recent trend in the USA of removing monuments to such people and renaming things that had been named in their honor. Should we regard the creations and legacy of such people as being metaphorically radioactive?

You would have to be more specific about which monuments you mean. Tearing down Confederate monuments, in particular, have to do with discrediting an (allegedly) fictitious account of the South's motivation being other than slavery, and being more noble overall. How do the people doing this feel about the objects they are removing? Well, imagine how a statue of Gen. Sherman would be received in Atlanta. I'm not following that any great accomplishment of any individual is being disregarded by removing these.

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15 hours ago, mlooney said:

Was there any question about this?

Yes. On the Monday January 10 thread, Don Edwards posted this:

Quote

"(Also, I think more people should check out what she said and what she was responding to.)"

It does backpedal somewhat, but it is not an apology nor an admission of being wrong, and I wonder if it is mostly a reaction to the backlash.

I don't know JKR, but it seems like the people who know her were appalled; especially the young, now adult actors who worked in her setting for years.

Clearly Old Hack, who has a horse in this race, so to speak, is offended, and has done more research than I have. I'll defer to that.

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6 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Yes. On the Monday January 10 thread, Don Edwards posted this:

It does backpedal somewhat, but it is not an apology nor an admission of being wrong, and I wonder if it is mostly a reaction to the backlash.

I don't know JKR, but it seems like the people who know her were appalled; especially the young, now adult actors who worked in her setting for years.

Clearly Old Hack, who has a horse in this race, so to speak, is offended, and has done more research than I have. I'll defer to that.

Giving up Harry Potter isn't all that hard for me, as it never grabbed me like some long running series did (looking at you Honor Harrington).  I'm not even sure I read the last few books and I know I stop watching the movies after the 3rd or so.

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4 hours ago, ijuin said:

The underlying question, I think, is one of whether good things can come from a bad person. This would apply not only to JKR, but also to many famous historical writers and artists who are known to have been quite racist or sexist.

I agree. Shakespeare was an obvious anti-Semite, for example. H. P. Lovecraft was extremely racist. And so forth. However, there is an important difference between them and JKR, namely that she is alive and politically active in our present day and time. She is a supporter of a hate group and continues to produce and help disperse transphobic propaganda. That makes her far more dangerous and an issue that needs to be continuously addressed and watched. Shakespeare, on the other hand, may safely remain in the field of literary analysis.

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4 hours ago, ijuin said:

For example, there is a recent trend in the USA of removing monuments to such people and renaming things that had been named in their honor. Should we regard the creations and legacy of such people as being metaphorically radioactive?

The Moderator: This is a current political issue and as such belongs in the politics thread. Please do not bring it up or debate it in the regular posts.

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3 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Shakespeare was an obvious anti-Semite, for example. H. P. Lovecraft was extremely racist

And both of which are dead and for the most part in the public domain, meaning that buying their works doesn't give any money to their heirs.  Way different than JKR case.

 

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39 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

H. P. Lovecraft was extremely racist.

To be fair, Cthulhu will devour just about anybody. Maybe not clowns, because they taste funny.

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1) /me adds a star and an elder sign to your page.
2) Cthulhu might not be racist, but most of his early fanboys definitely  were, with Lovecraft being worse, even by the standards of the day.

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2 hours ago, mlooney said:

And both of which are dead and for the most part in the public domain, meaning that buying their works doesn't give any money to their heirs.  Way different than JKR case.

I think that it is JKR herself that we are begrudging, and not her children and future grandchildren. I would not transfer any of the ill will towards her to her family, except insofar as they are known to participate in or contribute to  likewise bigotry.

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3 hours ago, mlooney said:

Giving up Harry Potter isn't all that hard for me, as it never grabbed me like some long running series did (looking at you Honor Harrington).  I'm not even sure I read the last few books and I know I stop watching the movies after the 3rd or so.

You didn't miss much; as the series went on it got more dark and serious and lost a lot of what made the early books fun, and the final book was a mess in multiple ways (the most glaring for me on the first read being how bloated it was with plot threads that didn't go anywhere and scenes that seemed to exist mostly to make sure we felt just how tedious everything was for the characters; Harry also made a number of decisions I considered immoral but the text never called him out on it, which has bothered me more since I began to more critically examine the series).

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I like the music of Richard Wagner

Unfortunately, in his art there exists themes that are anti Semitic. Was this a deeply held belief or the product of his era and culture?  I don't know the correct answer for this.

But what we do know is that the most hate filled being of the twentieth century adopted Wagner's music as the score for the tragedy he authored.

Should I reject the work of a good artist with questionable beliefs because someone with whom I disagree even more happened to enjoy that artist's work?

 

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Just now, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

I like the music of Richard Wagner

Unfortunately, in his art there exists themes that are anti Semitic. Was this a deeply held belief or the product of his era and culture?  I don't know the correct answer for this.

But what we do know is that the most hate filled being of the twentieth century adopted Wagner's music as the score for the tragedy he authored.

Should I reject the work of a good artist with questionable beliefs because someone with whom I disagree even more happened to enjoy that artist's work?

My grandmother despised Wagner. Not because of Hitler, she just didn't like his music. She swore blind that the reason he would have some sort of loud crescendo every fifteen minutes was in order to wake up the audience after it had fallen asleep. :danshiftyeyes:

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23 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

I like the music of Richard Wagner

Unfortunately, in his art there exists themes that are anti Semitic. Was this a deeply held belief or the product of his era and culture?  I don't know the correct answer for this.

But what we do know is that the most hate filled being of the twentieth century adopted Wagner's music as the score for the tragedy he authored.

Should I reject the work of a good artist with questionable beliefs because someone with whom I disagree even more happened to enjoy that artist's work?

Doesn't that depend on how impressionable the listener/viewer/reader is? If you get sucked into the underlying philosophy through the works, then the works were a gateway.

I had a watered down volume of Shakespeare when I was a kid. The wit and humor were gutted, but the basic stories were there. I read, The Merchant of Venice. Shylock was portrayed as an evil Jew, just as Shakespeare intended. In fact, it was probably my first exposure to antisemitism. I was a kid; there is no guarantee that your audience will be discerning.

Fortunately, I had Jewish neighbors, nice folks, and I had Jewish classmates. But had I lived in a more insular community, who knows?

The same could be said of Wagner. Popular with the Nazis, right?

There is a connectedness that makes it difficult to appreciate the art in isolation from the artist and the underlying philosophy.

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18 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

My grandmother despised Wagner. Not because of Hitler, she just didn't like his music. She swore blind that the reason he would have some sort of loud crescendo every fifteen minutes was in order to wake up the audience after it had fallen asleep. :danshiftyeyes:

I do like the What's Opera, Doc? "Kill the Wabbit" cartoon.

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1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

But what we do know is that the most hate filled being of the twentieth century adopted Wagner's music as the score for the tragedy he authored.

The tragic beach massacre by Colonel Kilgore must never be forgotten! :P

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

Harry also made a number of decisions I considered immoral but the text never called him out on it, which has bothered me more since I began to more critically examine the series).

Especially dubious was his choice to use the Unforgivable Curses (the use of any of which upon a fellow wizard ordinarily earns a life sentence in Azkaban Prison, though Wizarding racism tends to result in lesser sentences for using them against Muggles or non-human sapients, and use against non-sapients is treated as “cruelty to animals”). There is really no reason beyond pure malice to use the Cruciatus Curse (which causes the most intense, full-body pain that the victim is capable of experiencing). Also dubious was the use of the Imperius Curse (which compels total obedience to the caster) upon bank employees during the break-in at Gringotts Bank.

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36 minutes ago, ijuin said:

Especially dubious was his choice to use the Unforgivable Curses (the use of any of which upon a fellow wizard ordinarily earns a life sentence in Azkaban Prison, though Wizarding racism tends to result in lesser sentences for using them against Muggles or non-human sapients, and use against non-sapients is treated as “cruelty to animals”). There is really no reason beyond pure malice to use the Cruciatus Curse (which causes the most intense, full-body pain that the victim is capable of experiencing). Also dubious was the use of the Imperius Curse (which compels total obedience to the caster) upon bank employees during the break-in at Gringotts Bank.

Between my memory loss and it having been 20 some odd years since I read those, I barely know what you are talking about.  None of those curse/spells sound like something a hero protagonist should be using.

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Yeah, I figured that the explanation would help for those here who hadn’t read “HP and the Deathly Hallows” recently or at all.

Anyway, yes, using those particular curses was not only morally dark and not befitting a supposedly capital-G Good-aligned hero, but also seems to have been not particularly necessary for achieving their goal of collecting all of Voldemort’s Horcruxes (soul fragments that kept him from dying).

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Just as a side note, I've read that JKR's editors stopped being real editors after she got famous.  Which explains the size of the latter books.

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Just now, ijuin said:

Yeah, I figured that the explanation would help for those here who hadn’t read “HP and the Deathly Hallows” recently or at all.

Anyway, yes, using those particular curses was not only morally dark and not befitting a supposedly capital-G Good-aligned hero, but also seems to have been not particularly necessary for achieving their goal of collecting all of Voldemort’s Horcruxes (soul fragments that kept him from dying).

What really bugged me was how Harry was all against the exploitation of nonhumans and had a GOLDEN opportunity to end it and didn't take it. He needed the Sword of Gryffindor. He had just saved the wandmaker Mr. Ollivander. What do you think the goblins would have said if he offered them a chance to have a couple apprentices taught by Mr. Ollivander in return for the Sword? In effect, permanently ending the human monopoly on wand magic? It would have been a huge step towards more equality AND a huge fuck you to the Ministry of Magic. And he wouldn't have had to cheat on his deal with the goblins that way.

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13 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

H. P. Lovecraft was extremely racist.

More of an equal-opportunity racist than he is usually given... um... credit?... for. He hated pretty much every ethnicity other than Anglo-Saxon. (Somewhere I once found a reference to what he said about the Danes. It wasn't pretty. Naturally I can't find it again.)

6 hours ago, mlooney said:

Just as a side note, I've read that JKR's editors stopped being real editors after she got famous.

That is a VERY common - and unfortunate - pattern. I stopped reading Mercedes Lackey's new stuff because of it. Some writers really seriously need an editor.

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