Story Monday November 28, 2016

[Xenophon Hendrix 47]

If Diane isn't Susan's twin, why did the author go through all the trouble to leave strong hints that she is? I'm still expecting to see a rabbit pulled from a hat.

[PSadlon 88]

2 minutes ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

If Diane isn't Susan's twin, why did the author go through all the trouble to leave strong hints that she is? I'm still expecting to see a rabbit pulled from a hat.

They could be a sisters by the same father but different mothers. There is a very long running mystery of their exact relationship do to their appearance and that is insinuated to mean relatives in this comic as noted by Tedd's mom Noriko & his cousin Nanase looking alike. Also comparisons between Agent Cranium and the Brown girls are common and then the fact everyone in story accepts Elliot has a long-lost,, female, fraternal twin who looks practically identical.

[Xenophon Hendrix 47]

We know Susan and Diane are at least sisters, because Jerry said they were. Why all the hints about them being twins? If the author hadn't wanted to leave that hint, he wouldn't have had them born twenty minutes apart.

[PSadlon 88]

Dan likes to do a little misdirection to keep the readers on their toes.

[chridd 31]

40 minutes ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

We know Susan and Diane are at least sisters, because Jerry said they were. Why all the hints about them being twins? If the author hadn't wanted to leave that hint, he wouldn't have had them born twenty minutes apart.

We don't know that.  Jerry could be wrong.  We also don't know that they're not twins; Susan and Edward could both be wrong.  And identical appearance and similar birth times could be explained by e.g. being alternate universe counterparts.  They could be twins; they could be half-sisters; they could be more distant relatives; they could be people who coincidentally look the same; they could be alternate universe counterparts or magic duplicates or the result of a permanent transformation or something else magic-related that we don't know about yet; we don't know, they don't know.

[PSadlon 88]

He could be wrong but considering the other facts at hand it's far less likely.

[Xenophon Hendrix 47]

7 hours ago, chridd said:

We don't know that.  Jerry could be wrong.  We also don't know that they're not twins; Susan and Edward could both be wrong.  And identical appearance and similar birth times could be explained by e.g. being alternate universe counterparts.  They could be twins; they could be half-sisters; they could be more distant relatives; they could be people who coincidentally look the same; they could be alternate universe counterparts or magic duplicates or the result of a permanent transformation or something else magic-related that we don't know about yet; we don't know, they don't know.

I find it unlikely that an immortal is wrong about a statement of fact. As for the rest, that's what I mean by pulling a rabbit from a hat. I really doubt that they are merely half-sisters who look alike.

[Don Edwards 548]

11 hours ago, PSadlon said:

Also comparisons between Agent Cranium and the Brown girls are common and then the fact everyone in story accepts Elliot has a long-lost,, female, fraternal twin who looks practically identical.

 

10 hours ago, chridd said:

They could be twins; they could be half-sisters; they could be more distant relatives; they could be people who coincidentally look the same; they could be alternate universe counterparts or magic duplicates or the result of a permanent transformation or something else magic-related that we don't know about yet; we don't know, they don't know.

I think I've mentioned once or twice that on one occasion I encountered three young ladies so similar in appearance that I wondered if they were identical triplets; it turned out that two of them were identical twins and the third was a *cousin*. (I also commented to my wife "sometimes you walk into a restaurant and immediately get a feeling that it's a family business". The three girls were working as hostesses, and our waitress was the twins' mother.)

Still, I'd bet a few quatloos on Jerry being correct that Susan and Diane are sisters.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

I had a friend in high school with two younger sisters, and they and their mother all looked so much alike that it made me itch to do DNA testing on them to see if it was a case of human parthenogenesis.  (Hey, if something as advanced as komodo dragons can do it, why not humans?)  If mom's genes were so dominant, I could definitely see a half-sister on her side also looking alike, but I've lost touch so I don't think I could call her up and ask about cousins etc right now... ;-)

[RainbowWizard 35]

'none of your damn business' anger incoming.

 

Maybe them being related isn't a big deal and the meddlers need to stop meddling.

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

I had a friend in high school with two younger sisters, and they and their mother all looked so much alike that it made me itch to do DNA testing on them to see if it was a case of human parthenogenesis.  (Hey, if something as advanced as komodo dragons can do it, why not humans?)  If mom's genes were so dominant, I could definitely see a half-sister on her side also looking alike, but I've lost touch so I don't think I could call her up and ask about cousins etc right now... ;-)

My grandfather was born out of wedlock, his mother was so ashamed of it that she had her sister who was married raise him and she acted as his aunt, it wasn't until years after grandpa had married and had children that the truth came out. Within the past 15 years or so grandpa got curious about his family heritage and him and dad have been trying to fill out as much of the family tree as possible, and was able to find out that his biological father had gone on to have a couple more sons, one of which was nearly 20 years younger than grandpa. Earlier this year he got a chance to meet this half brother and despite their age difference you could definitely tell they were related, the half brother had more bulk than grandpa ever did but looking at his face, it was exactly how grandpa looked 20 years ago.

Another example is my grandmother, my aunt that's her youngest daughter, and my aunt's daughter, also have very striking similarities that it's almost like going back in time looking at them, I've seen various pictures of grandma at different ages and there were some where I honestly thought it was a picture of my aunt or cousin done up in black&while or sepia to look like an old picture.

[hkmaly 490]

16 hours ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

If Diane isn't Susan's twin, why did the author go through all the trouble to leave strong hints that she is? I'm still expecting to see a rabbit pulled from a hat.

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I had a friend in high school with two younger sisters, and they and their mother all looked so much alike that it made me itch to do DNA testing on them to see if it was a case of human parthenogenesis.  (Hey, if something as advanced as komodo dragons can do it, why not humans?)  If mom's genes were so dominant, I could definitely see a half-sister on her side also looking alike, but I've lost touch so I don't think I could call her up and ask about cousins etc right now... ;-)

My grandfather was born out of wedlock, his mother was so ashamed of it that she had her sister who was married raise him and she acted as his aunt, it wasn't until years after grandpa had married and had children that the truth came out. Within the past 15 years or so grandpa got curious about his family heritage and him and dad have been trying to fill out as much of the family tree as possible, and was able to find out that his biological father had gone on to have a couple more sons, one of which was nearly 20 years younger than grandpa. Earlier this year he got a chance to meet this half brother and despite their age difference you could definitely tell they were related, the half brother had more bulk than grandpa ever did but looking at his face, it was exactly how grandpa looked 20 years ago.

Another example is my grandmother, my aunt that's her youngest daughter, and my aunt's daughter, also have very striking similarities that it's almost like going back in time looking at them, I've seen various pictures of grandma at different ages and there were some where I honestly thought it was a picture of my aunt or cousin done up in black&while or sepia to look like an old picture.

Sure coincidences like that happens in real life. They are, however, MUCH less likely to happen in fiction, due to Chekhov's gun.

7 hours ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

15 hours ago, chridd said:

We don't know that.  Jerry could be wrong.  We also don't know that they're not twins; Susan and Edward could both be wrong.  And identical appearance and similar birth times could be explained by e.g. being alternate universe counterparts.  They could be twins; they could be half-sisters; they could be more distant relatives; they could be people who coincidentally look the same; they could be alternate universe counterparts or magic duplicates or the result of a permanent transformation or something else magic-related that we don't know about yet; we don't know, they don't know.

I find it unlikely that an immortal is wrong about a statement of fact. As for the rest, that's what I mean by pulling a rabbit from a hat. I really doubt that they are merely half-sisters who look alike.

Them being alternate universe counterparts or something seems actually MORE likely than them being just half-sisters, because it will be explanation for all those coincidences.

And yes: immortal being wrong about a statement of fact related to a vow? That's sounds DANGEROUSLY close to Voltaire being able to kill Elliot after vowing not to. If the vows are good for something and as big deal as they are presented to be, then Jerry CANT be wrong.

Meanwhile, Susan and Edward being wrong? Can totally happen.

 

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

This is a totally out of bounds left field foul gutter ball in the rough guess, but...

Maybe when Young Jerry referred to Diane as a sister, perhaps he was not talking about genetics or adoption.  Diane (and possibly Susan) may be destined to become a Nun.  Taking Holy Orders to fight the abominations of this world.

[hkmaly 490]

27 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

This is a totally out of bounds left field foul gutter ball in the rough guess, but...

Maybe when Young Jerry referred to Diane as a sister, perhaps he was not talking about genetics or adoption.  Diane (and possibly Susan) may be destined to become a Nun.  Taking Holy Orders to fight the abominations of this world.

Not only is this crazy, also do you really think Dan would consider risking alienating people with strong opinion on Christianity with involving Holy Order in world with proved supernatural? The indirect implication that Jesus might've been immortal is enough ...

[Scotty 1,061]

4 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Not only is this crazy, also do you really think Dan would consider risking alienating people with strong opinion on Christianity with involving Holy Order in world with proved supernatural? The indirect implication that Jesus might've been immortal is enough ...

Technically, Dan already has.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

5 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Not only is this crazy, also do you really think Dan would consider risking alienating people with strong opinion on Christianity with involving Holy Order in world with proved supernatural? The indirect implication that Jesus might've been immortal is enough ...

The Moderator: 1) Please do not use the word 'crazy' about other posters, or at all if possible. It is rude. 2) Monastic orders are not limited to Christianity. They exist in Buddhism, Shinto, Islam, Confucianism and a number of other religions.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

There was no intent to offend.  When I hear the word "sister" repeated often enough, I eventually think of Nuns.  I didn't think I was the only one.

[hkmaly 490]

23 minutes ago, Scotty said:

31 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Not only is this crazy, also do you really think Dan would consider risking alienating people with strong opinion on Christianity with involving Holy Order in world with proved supernatural? The indirect implication that Jesus might've been immortal is enough ...

Technically, Dan already has.

And you may notice how extremely careful he was around it.

 

[chridd 31]

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And yes: immortal being wrong about a statement of fact related to a vow? That's sounds DANGEROUSLY close to Voltaire being able to kill Elliot after vowing not to. If the vows are good for something and as big deal as they are presented to be, then Jerry CANT be wrong.

Regardless of whether Susan and Diane are somehow related, Jerry protecting Diane doesn't break his vow, unless that would somehow harm Susan (which seems unlikely; or, if this is the case, Jerry probably doesn't know about it).  If they're unrelated, it doesn't matter (as far as his vow is concerned) whether he protects Diane; if they are related, then protecting Diane would be necessary, and not protecting her would break the vow.  Being wrong in the other direction could result in breaking the vow; protecting Diane is safe either way.

Besides, it wouldn't surprise me if the immortal's knowledge and intent, whether he believes that he's breaking the vow, mattered, since that's how immortal law works (and thus it would matter that he believes they're sisters, rather than whether they actually are).

[hkmaly 490]

3 minutes ago, chridd said:

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And yes: immortal being wrong about a statement of fact related to a vow? That's sounds DANGEROUSLY close to Voltaire being able to kill Elliot after vowing not to. If the vows are good for something and as big deal as they are presented to be, then Jerry CANT be wrong.

Regardless of whether Susan and Diane are somehow related, Jerry protecting Diane doesn't break his vow, unless that would somehow harm Susan (which seems unlikely; or, if this is the case, Jerry probably doesn't know about it).  If they're unrelated, it doesn't matter (as far as his vow is concerned) whether he protects Diane; if they are related, then protecting Diane would be necessary, and not protecting her would break the vow.  Being wrong in the other direction could result in breaking the vow; protecting Diane is safe either way.

Yes, in this case it can be resolved safely. But it's still dangerously close. What would happen if he didn't know Diane is sister and failed to protect her? Or what if there would be different sister and he would protect Diane and harm the real sister that way?

6 minutes ago, chridd said:

Besides, it wouldn't surprise me if the immortal's knowledge and intent, whether he believes that he's breaking the vow, mattered, since that's how immortal law works (and thus it would matter that he believes they're sisters, rather than whether they actually are).

That would be plausible but would present even MORE danger to Elliot. I would assume that while knowledge and intent is important, you can't fool it easily by being lazy in gathering information. Because it's about what he believes and not about what he can justify.

Also, given how he reacted to memory of Old Jerry, I would suspect he would prefer to be somewhere else and certainly made sure he's not doing it needlessly.

(But yes, "Jerry CANT be wrong" might've been too much.)

 

[Scotty 1,061]

Just now, hkmaly said:

And you may notice how extremely careful he was around it.

 

There's still the belief that magic and the divine are linked.

3 minutes ago, chridd said:

Regardless of whether Susan and Diane are somehow related, Jerry protecting Diane doesn't break his vow, unless that would somehow harm Susan (which seems unlikely; or, if this is the case, Jerry probably doesn't know about it).  If they're unrelated, it doesn't matter (as far as his vow is concerned) whether he protects Diane; if they are related, then protecting Diane would be necessary, and not protecting her would break the vow.  Being wrong in the other direction could result in breaking the vow; protecting Diane is safe either way.

Besides, it wouldn't surprise me if the immortal's knowledge and intent, whether he believes that he's breaking the vow, mattered, since that's how immortal law works (and thus it would matter that he believes they're sisters, rather than whether they actually are).

I would imagine that Jerry might have been listening in on Nanase and Ellen's conversation about Diane and Susan being born 20 minutes apart. So it's possible Jerry just assumed Diane was Susan's sister from that, but I would think that'd he'd wanted to be absolutely sure if that was true before he included Diane in the vow to Susan, because if he is wrong about Diane, that would mean that Nanase went through all that trouble of trying to find out for sure, and then stirring up negative emotions in Susan, and then what would Diane think? Having for the past few days believed that she may have found an actual biological sister only to have it be an "oops, my mistake." If anything, I'd think that'd go against the vow.

[Vorlonagent 442]

10 minutes ago, chridd said:

Regardless of whether Susan and Diane are somehow related, Jerry protecting Diane doesn't break his vow, unless that would somehow harm Susan (which seems unlikely; or, if this is the case, Jerry probably doesn't know about it).  If they're unrelated, it doesn't matter (as far as his vow is concerned) whether he protects Diane; if they are related, then protecting Diane would be necessary, and not protecting her would break the vow.  Being wrong in the other direction could result in breaking the vow; protecting Diane is safe either way.

Besides, it wouldn't surprise me if the immortal's knowledge and intent, whether he believes that he's breaking the vow, mattered, since that's how immortal law works (and thus it would matter that he believes they're sisters, rather than whether they actually are).

Given how much Jerry doesn't want to fulfill his Vow, I think it's more interesting that he concluded that his vow in fact did cover Diane because it related to Susan.  Inaction would be much easier than helping Diane out, so it seems all but certian that there's some way Diane and Susan are (in some way) family.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

9 minutes ago, chridd said:

it would matter that he believes they're sisters, rather than whether they actually are

That may be the core conundrum for examining Jerry's comments.

If Young Jerry believes  (or at least strongly suspects) that Diane and Susan are sisters then as far as his vow is concerned, they are sisters.

As we have seen in PCR Box's recent attempts at hijinks, Immortals do not know everything.

Unlike Edward Verres...

[hkmaly 490]

8 minutes ago, Scotty said:

23 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

And you may notice how extremely careful he was around it.

 

There's still the belief that magic and the divine are linked.

The carefulness can IMHO be best seen here, where Nanase is careful. But even in the page you linked, note how in commentary Dan explicitly mentions that this comics will not answer the question if the guardian form is divine.

8 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

As we have seen in PCR Box's recent attempts at hijinks, Immortals do not know everything.

Pandora actively tries to not know everything to get at least little chance to be surprised. Still, yes, I'm surprised it surprised her.

[Scotty 1,061]

1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

The carefulness can IMHO be best seen here, where Nanase is careful. But even in the page you linked, note how in commentary Dan explicitly mentions that this comics will not answer the question if the guardian form is divine.

True, it does leave it to interpretation though, and we know there have been many battles over interpretation throughout history.