NP Monday December 5, 2016

[hkmaly 490]

On 12/07/2016 at 8:59 AM, The Old Hack said:

On 12/07/2016 at 7:06 AM, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

This may just be an impression I had of Edward.  Fueled by guilt, he threw himself into the overworked - over protector role.

It seems reasonable to me. I can certainly see how it would apply.

It may be correct but without canon confirmation it's just impression.

Also, even if driven by guilt, it can be unconscious thing.

... and about that overworking, I suspect both him and Noriko had great talent to get lost in their work even before the divorce.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Ed Verres has plenty of faults, but he's the parent that stayed with his child.  He doesn't seem the warmest man in the universe, but he does come across as no-nonsense and down to earth.  I can't see him calling a marriage off because the first child was magically impaired or because his wife didn't want more, and I cannot see him kicking Noriko out unless she already wanted to go.  It's not in his character. 

He's no-nonsense and down to earth NOW. I can see him calling a marriage off or kicking his wife out - obviously not so easy as in that scenario, but after long fights and fatal disagreements about how the marriage should look and maybe how will they care about Tedd ... then feel guilty about it, trying to compensate it to Tedd and get better in general, becoming the character we know now.

Another not-confirmed but likely piece of their fights might be that Edward considers what Noriko do (or HOW she do it) too dangerous and fears she get herself killed.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Noriko doesn't have a "character" yet.  We don't know much about her except for a few hurtful things she has done.  It was Norko who kept scanning Tedd for signs of magic ability not Ed Verres, and then she's the one who left.  Certainly Mrs. Kitsune harbors a huge grudge against her sister for how she acted towards Tedd.  Those are the dots we have to connect and they point right at Noriko as the problem, not Ed Verres.

In most family fights, the problem is on both sides, although not necessary equally. I agree that Noriko seems more in fault than Edward, but exactly because we don't know much about her I would like to give her benefit of doubt and wait for her side of the story.

Mrs. Kitsune grudge is definitely too much. We have "dots" pointing to Noriko not being so bad, starting with the fact she fights monsters, not becaming one herself. Or the fact that she married Edward and that Adrian Raven though he could've saved that marriage if he would be better teacher. If she would "be problem", Adrian would likely notice ... and perhaps he would side with Edward and be on more friendly terms with him now.

 

[Vorlonagent 442]

2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

He's no-nonsense and down to earth NOW. I can see him calling a marriage off or kicking his wife out - obviously not so easy as in that scenario, but after long fights and fatal disagreements about how the marriage should look and maybe how will they care about Tedd ... then feel guilty about it, trying to compensate it to Tedd and get better in general, becoming the character we know now.

We have no evidence to believe Ed Verres was significantly different when Tedd was born.  We do have evidence that Noriko was obsessed with Tedd's magic, or lack thereof.  I follow the evidence, as partial as it is, and that evidence speaks harshly of Noriko, not Ed Verres.

 

4 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

In most family fights, the problem is on both sides, although not necessary equally. I agree that Noriko seems more in fault than Edward, but exactly because we don't know much about her I would like to give her benefit of doubt and wait for her side of the story.

Mrs. Kitsune grudge is definitely too much. We have "dots" pointing to Noriko not being so bad, starting with the fact she fights monsters, not becaming one herself. Or the fact that she married Edward and that Adrian Raven though he could've saved that marriage if he would be better teacher. If she would "be problem", Adrian would likely notice ... and perhaps he would side with Edward and be on more friendly terms with him now.

It's reasonable to expect that Ed Verres said and did hurtful things when he and Norkio fought.  As you say, that is the way of such things. I don't see the relevance.  Or more correctly I see other factors as overwhelming any fault finding by the time the arguing started.  As I have said, I'm sure Dan will rehabilitate Noriko.  But for the moment, she's the villain who left her own son because he wasn't gifted at magic.

As long as we're engaging in speculation without evidence, you do not know Noriko has not become a monster.  She could be a fanatical monster-killer who lives only for her next fight.  "Joust not with dragons, lest you become one" and all that. 

Raven implies that he pushed Verres' and Norko's ability to "do good".  I'd argue Raven was living his own frustrated dreams of serving humanity through his pupils and is now kicking himself for pushing it too hard.  This figures in my thinking that Norkio left because Tedd had no magic.  He'd never be a monster hunter and that locked him out of her world.

 

[hkmaly 490]

14 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

As long as we're engaging in speculation without evidence

You started

14 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

you do not know Noriko has not become a monster.  She could be a fanatical monster-killer who lives only for her next fight.  "Joust not with dragons, lest you become one" and all that.

I'm pretty sure she didn't became aberration. Wolf would likely mention that.

EGS is in pretty big group of stories where it's easy to check if someone is or isn't monster ... at least if you take it literally enough.

Note that the quote is

Friedrich Nietzsche said:

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

14 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Raven implies that he pushed Verres' and Norko's ability to "do good".  I'd argue Raven was living his own frustrated dreams of serving humanity through his pupils and is now kicking himself for pushing it too hard.  This figures in my thinking that Norkio left because Tedd had no magic.  He'd never be a monster hunter and that locked him out of her world.

So, you agree with how Pandora Chaos Raven described the situation? That putting his [Adrian] life at risk for people who will ultimately wither and die is insanity?

I repeat: not trying for second child would be stupid. Tedd having no magic couldn't be the main reason Noriko left. Either it was just one of the reasons, or something else prevented her from the "let's just write him off and try again" route.

[Vorlonagent 442]

6 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

So, you agree with how Pandora Chaos Raven described the situation? That putting his [Adrian] life at risk for people who will ultimately wither and die is insanity?

I did not say or imply this.

 

 

7 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I repeat: not trying for second child would be stupid. Tedd having no magic couldn't be the main reason Noriko left. Either it was just one of the reasons, or something else prevented her from the "let's just write him off and try again" route.

I repeat: I agree.  Considering a second child seems reasonable.  Remember we're not talking about a statistical trial here.  We're talking about making a new person, with all that entails.

The rest of this is speculation.  We have no other reasons given us.  We have seen Noriko continually looking for magic in Tedd to the point where he ended up traumatized by the sound of the wand.  Clearly Tedd's magic or lack of it was very important.  Important enough to leave.

Also people do stupid things.  They aren't always rational.  One of the stupid things Noriko did was walk out.

[hkmaly 490]

Just now, Vorlonagent said:

15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

So, you agree with how Pandora Chaos Raven described the situation? That putting his [Adrian] life at risk for people who will ultimately wither and die is insanity?

I did not say or imply this.

Sorry, but that "frustrated dreams of serving humanity" sounded like such implication. So how did you meant it?

To me, it seems that his effort was mostly successful. Sure, their personal life didn't ended ideally, but both Edward and Noriko apparently helped humanity a lot.

3 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I repeat: I agree.  Considering a second child seems reasonable.  Remember we're not talking about a statistical trial here.  We're talking about making a new person, with all that entails.

For person who would walk out from marriage because the child is not good enough, it WOULD be statistical trial.

5 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

We have seen Noriko continually looking for magic in Tedd to the point where he ended up traumatized by the sound of the wand.

... I think that traumatizing him didn't required as many tries as you imply.

5 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Clearly Tedd's magic or lack of it was very important. 

I agree with this, however ...

5 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Important enough to leave.

... this is speculation.

6 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Also people do stupid things.  They aren't always rational.  One of the stupid things Noriko did was walk out.

People may do something because it's rational or because being emotional. Walking out just because child doesn't have magic doesn't look as either to me. It needs either another rational reason or some additional emotion.

[Vorlonagent 442]

38 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Sorry, but that "frustrated dreams of serving humanity" sounded like such implication. So how did you meant it?

To me, it seems that his effort was mostly successful. Sure, their personal life didn't ended ideally, but both Edward and Noriko apparently helped humanity a lot.

For person who would walk out from marriage because the child is not good enough, it WOULD be statistical trial.

... I think that traumatizing him didn't required as many tries as you imply.

I agree with this, however ...

... this is speculation.

People may do something because it's rational or because being emotional. Walking out just because child doesn't have magic doesn't look as either to me. It needs either another rational reason or some additional emotion.

I meant that Noriko, coming from a long line of monster hunters already had a lot of familial pressure and or indoctrination on her.  Raven did not intend to push her over the line to fanaticism but may have anyway.  This has nothing to do with Pandora's sentiments regarding humanity.  It's a theory that fits what few facts we have, but is unlikely to entirely survive Dan's humanizing her.

I'n the scene between Raven and Noriko using the wand on Tedd as a baby, Raven I'm pretty sure Raven asks her to stop using the wand on Tedd (implication: shed' done it a bunch of times).  I can't quickly find the strip but I'm pretty sure it's linked upthread.  That's all I need to show her refusing to believe such a perfect matchup or her own body could produce someone as powerless-appearing as Tedd.  The problem would have to be with Ed Verres or more charitably to Noriko, how their two bloodlines mingled.

When I speculate I tend to extrapolate from a point of known data.  We know Norko was unhappy with Tedd's lack of magic and found it hard to accept.  The next leap from there, when combined with a touch of the fanatic, is leaving in search of a man who could give her the apprentice she wanted.  Eastern society tends to devalue the individual, putting emphasis on family and tradition.  There's tens of millions more shrines to ancestors in Japan than in the US.  The pressures of family legacy and tradition, which would include pressure to contribute to the next generation, could easily have made it unacceptable for Noriko to stay at all, let alone stay and try for another child..

[hkmaly 490]

7 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I meant that Noriko, coming from a long line of monster hunters already had a lot of familial pressure and or indoctrination on her.  Raven did not intend to push her over the line to fanaticism but may have anyway.  This has nothing to do with Pandora's sentiments regarding humanity.  It's a theory that fits what few facts we have, but is unlikely to entirely survive Dan's humanizing her.

That doesn't explain the "frustrated dreams" parts. And there is no clear line of fanatism - that's why it's so easy to cross it.

Otherwise yes, her going too far in that direction was clearly implied if not directly said in comics. Question is, how much of that is cause and how much effect - it's quite likely she immersed even more into her work after the divorce; was it to drown the feelings or because she no longer let Edward hold her back?

14 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I'n the scene between Raven and Noriko using the wand on Tedd as a baby, Raven I'm pretty sure Raven asks her to stop using the wand on Tedd (implication: shed' done it a bunch of times).  I can't quickly find the strip but I'm pretty sure it's linked upthread.

Here. I mean here. Of course it was bunch of times, but, like, 6 times might be enough. She didn't need to do it whole month every day.

17 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

When I speculate I tend to extrapolate from a point of known data.  We know Norko was unhappy with Tedd's lack of magic and found it hard to accept.  The next leap from there, when combined with a touch of the fanatic, is leaving in search of a man who could give her the apprentice she wanted.  Eastern society tends to devalue the individual, putting emphasis on family and tradition.  There's tens of millions more shrines to ancestors in Japan than in the US.  The pressures of family legacy and tradition, which would include pressure to contribute to the next generation, could easily have made it unacceptable for Noriko to stay at all, let alone stay and try for another child..

This all stands and fall on single thing: there is no reason why should Noriko (or her family, alive or not) assume her chances with anyone else would be better than with Edward. At least none I know of. (Otherwise I agree with your reasoning - it's just this one missing point which makes me certain there is something we don't know yet, and which could make lot of difference.)

For man, it would be logical (although amoral) to try current partner AND someone else in parallel. (Possibly even almost literally, right, Mr. Pompoms?) Woman doesn't have that option.

 

[Vorlonagent 442]

16 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

That doesn't explain the "frustrated dreams" parts. And there is no clear line of fanatism - that's why it's so easy to cross it.

Otherwise yes, her going too far in that direction was clearly implied if not directly said in comics. Question is, how much of that is cause and how much effect - it's quite likely she immersed even more into her work after the divorce; was it to drown the feelings or because she no longer let Edward hold her back?

Here. I mean here. Of course it was bunch of times, but, like, 6 times might be enough. She didn't need to do it whole month every day.

This all stands and fall on single thing: there is no reason why should Noriko (or her family, alive or not) assume her chances with anyone else would be better than with Edward. At least none I know of. (Otherwise I agree with your reasoning - it's just this one missing point which makes me certain there is something we don't know yet, and which could make lot of difference.)

For man, it would be logical (although amoral) to try current partner AND someone else in parallel. (Possibly even almost literally, right, Mr. Pompoms?) Woman doesn't have that option.

I think the work was all that Noriko allowed to matter to her.

Raven does say "continually frightening the child"  Implies way more than 6 times.

You may be assuming that each attempt at babymaking between Noriko and Ed Verres could be considered an independent trial.  I don't think Noriko did.  From that POV, any other man would have a better chance of giving her an apprentice than Ed Verres.

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Raven does say "continually frightening the child"  Implies way more than 6 times.

Not to me.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

You may be assuming that each attempt at babymaking between Noriko and Ed Verres could be considered an independent trial.  I don't think Noriko did.  From that POV, any other man would have a better chance of giving her an apprentice than Ed Verres.

From sample size of 1, very little can be concluded. If the goal would be specific gender, then yes the trials are independent.

She believed that another magical bloodline would be better than normal person. No reason to change that belief, especially if data she based on it still holds (possibly her father and her mother father, if her "magic user bloodline" was female). People from know magical bloodline in acceptable age and single are likely not so common. Just trying to get one randomly would definitely result in lower chance than another try with Edward.

[Don Edwards 548]

On 12/6/2016 at 4:18 PM, Vorlonagent said:

Possible.  I'm sure there were a lot of harsh words said between Noriko and Ed Verres before Noriko left..  I too would think that taking a second shot at babymaking would be in order before giving up.  Lacking to suggest something more likely, I choose to believe Noirko did not agree.  She judged her union with Ed Verres entirely based on Tedd's lack of magic and walked out the door.

 

On 12/6/2016 at 7:11 PM, hkmaly said:

What if it was Edward who didn't agree? What if he had (not completely unjustifiable) worry that Tedd wouldn't get enough mother love even with Noriko in house? What if Edward decided to not risk another baby without magic with possibility of ending alone with two babies?

Noriko: "We need to make another baby, this one is defective."

Edward: "And what if it also wouldn't have magic?"

Noriko: "Uh ... third time's a charm?"

Edward: "Out. And don't dare to come back."

(Presumably, not in these exact words, because if it went like this then both would look worse than if Noriko just gave up on Edward.)

There is also this: apparently Edward accepted the infant Tedd as he appeared to be: their son - without magic, but still their son.

If Noriko regarded Tedd as a failed experiment and they had another child, there would be two possibilities: another child without magic and the same situation again with even more stress between them; or a child with magic and Noriko promptly essentially abandons Tedd, proving herself herself an unfit mother and a detriment to Edward's efforts to care for their elder child.

I don't think Edward would find either of those possibilities acceptable.

[Scotty 1,061]

26 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Raven does say "continually frightening the child"  Implies way more than 6 times.

Not to me.

Considering Tedd's reaction to the wand when Edward brought it out to use on Elliot and Ellen. I'd definitely say it was a daily occurance that Noriko used the wand. Also Tedd's explaination to Sarah(includes flashback to first link) had Tedd stating the reaction being a conditioned response from hearing it frequently. That kind of response does not come about from just 6 uses of the wand on him.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

I am still waiting for a more complete telling of Noriko's story.  And then I want to know how Tedd reacts to this revelation.

One possibility has lodged itself into my imagination and will not be removed easily.  The plotline of a person who is threatened or cursed abandoning their family to protect them is a very old one.  And it rarely works.

Could Noriko have fled Moperville to draw her enemies away from her son, husband, and sister?  Nanase's fight on New Year's Eve showed that this plan has failed.

Perhaps Noriko was cursed?  Did the Oracle at Delphi tell Noriko she would kill her husband and marry her son?

[The Old Hack 2,448]

5 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Perhaps Noriko was cursed?  Did the Oracle at Delphi tell Noriko she would kill her husband and marry her son?

Big talk from the Pharaoh whose priests did curses like the Hom-Dai on Imhotep, ensuring that he would be immortal and inevitably rise to destroy the whole world a few millenniae later.

[Vorlonagent 442]

14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

From sample size of 1, very little can be concluded. If the goal would be specific gender, then yes the trials are independent.

She believed that another magical bloodline would be better than normal person. No reason to change that belief, especially if data she based on it still holds (possibly her father and her mother father, if her "magic user bloodline" was female). People from know magical bloodline in acceptable age and single are likely not so common. Just trying to get one randomly would definitely result in lower chance than another try with Edward.

We aren't working with a sample size of 1.  There's 5-10 thousand year's experience with magic and bloodlines to consider.

As Raven says in the comic, magic bloodlines don't always work the way you'd expect. or the way gender genetics does.

Nor do I think magical ability in EGS as a yes/no on/off state.  Odds are there are degrees of it.  making a baby with a random man would likely result in a child of lesser ability to Noriko's but with some ability.  If we allow ourselves to believe that Mr. Kitsune has no magical ability, Nanase would then be an example for this.  (note there is no information on Mr. Kitsune's magical potential.  Given Mrs. Kitsune's shielding Nanase from her heritage, we can reasonably assume that Mrs. Kitsune did not marry *for* magical potential, but that doesn't mean Mr. Kitsune has none)

Oddly enough, Noriko was entirely correct to think that her lineage + Ed Verres' would produce something/someone exceptional  They did.  Tedd is exceptional.  But it wasn't apparent for over a decade.  Noriko was looking for "exceptional' on her terms (acceptable apprentice).  By that test, and only by that test, Tedd was a failure.  Convinced that any further trials would produce similarly unacceptable results she left, looking for someone who could give her a success.  There are ways to soften this so it's not as damning for Noriko, but t the end of the day she did leave and there are  consequences for that action.

3 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Big talk from the Pharaoh whose priests did curses like the Hom-Dai on Imhotep, ensuring that he would be immortal and inevitably rise to destroy the whole world a few millenniae later.

But it was Brenden Frasier's finest two hours...

[Scotty 1,061]

2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

But it was Brenden Frasier's finest two hours...

I thought that was Encino Man.

[Vorlonagent 442]

29 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I thought that was Encino Man.

I might have said George of the Jungle...

[hkmaly 490]

7 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

One possibility has lodged itself into my imagination and will not be removed easily.  The plotline of a person who is threatened or cursed abandoning their family to protect them is a very old one.  And it rarely works.

Could Noriko have fled Moperville to draw her enemies away from her son, husband, and sister?  Nanase's fight on New Year's Eve showed that this plan has failed.

The drawing enemies away part makes lot of sense and it would likely be between reasons why she's in Europe and not just different city. I don't think it's reason to divorce, though. More like "I can't be with them to protect them directly, so better be far away."

Otherwise, Adrian would be aware of that.

7 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Perhaps Noriko was cursed?

Unlikely. So far we didn't see any kind of magic resembling this kind of curses.

7 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Did the Oracle at Delphi tell Noriko she would kill her husband and marry her son?

First, time travel is not possible and this kind of prediction wouldn't be reliable.

Second, while the idea of her marrying Tedd in girl form in attempt to ensure she won't marry her son is funny, they look too similar to not notice the resemblance.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

We aren't working with a sample size of 1.  There's 5-10 thousand year's experience with magic and bloodlines to consider.

As Raven says in the comic, magic bloodlines don't always work the way you'd expect. or the way gender genetics does.

As Noriko said, they did for her bloodline. She sounds as if Tedd was first child without magic in her bloodline, which is a sample size of 1.

(Actually, 0, as Tedd had magic.)

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Oddly enough, Noriko was entirely correct to think that her lineage + Ed Verres' would produce something/someone exceptional  They did.  Tedd is exceptional.  But it wasn't apparent for over a decade.  Noriko was looking for "exceptional' on her terms (acceptable apprentice).  By that test, and only by that test, Tedd was a failure.

I think if she knew in advance how good Tedd will be with magic wands (so, basically what we knew just after Whales), it would be good enough for her. It was the magic analyzing wand reporting incorrect result which labelled Tedd failure.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Convinced that any further trials would produce similarly unacceptable results she left, looking for someone who could give her a success.

( ... convinced why? ... just rhetorical, because we both know she had no reason we know of to suspect that)