Story Wednesday December 14, 2016

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

this raises question if Max and Jeremy could shapeshift ...

Why would they want to shape shift?

They're cats.  The most perfect beings to ever dominate this planet.  Just ask them.

[hkmaly 490]

48 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

this raises question if Max and Jeremy could shapeshift ...

Why would they want to shape shift?

They're cats.  The most perfect beings to ever dominate this planet.  Just ask them.

That doesn't mean they couldn't. Also, obviously they are better than cats.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

obviously they are better than cats.

I loved it. 
It was much better than Cats.
I am going to see it again and again.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/amazing-alexander/n9457?snl=1

[Trix Marano 4]

On 18/12/2016 at 3:50 AM, CritterKeeper said:

...if [Max and Jeremy] were created as part of testing the technique for hybridizing via Uryuom eggs, the usual pattern of testing on animals before testing on humans, it's quite likely they're older than any of the part-human crosses like Hedge and Grace.

 

On 18/12/2016 at 4:40 AM, Scotty said:

Hybrids like Max and Jeremy might have been created more for novelty like other designer pets...

This seems to support those ideas...

[hkmaly 490]

4 hours ago, Trix Marano said:

This seems to support those ideas...

Also, that "in this state of potential aggression the spines actually get harder and become more like spikes than spines" suggests shapeshifting.

[A.E. Pessimal 4]

 

20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

That doesn't mean they couldn't. Also, obviously they are better than cats.

All cats are equal. But some cats are more equal than others.

[Trix Marano 4]

9 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Also, that "in this state of potential aggression the spines actually get harder and become more like spikes than spines" suggests shapeshifting.

This may simply refer to the behaviour of hedgehogs, in that they curl up when frightened or under attack. We don't see Jeremy curl up, but there's almost certainly some connection to hedgehogs beyond having spines. When a hedgehog does curl up, the spines stick out and are 'spiky'. This requires no shapeshifting (although it would be awesome if they could), and so suggests a lack of shapeshifting abilities.

However, if Jeremy was brought home by Edward, presumably from work, this may actually be from the 'Nest' that we see in Painted Black, as he did go undercover inside there, more than once (7th panel - "It became my duty to infiltrate it"). This suggests a considerable possibility that Jeremy was Uryuom-egg born, and so may have unknown or hidden shapeshifting abilities anyway, as Guineas and Hedge still do.

Also...

On 19/12/2016 at 7:36 AM, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Why would they want to shape shift?

They're cats.  The most perfect beings to ever dominate this planet.  Just ask them.

 

[Tom Sewell 268]

A dog looks up to you. A cat looks down on you. But a pig looks on you as an equal.

Not my idea, but worth repeating.

[hkmaly 490]

14 hours ago, Trix Marano said:

This may simply refer to the behaviour of hedgehogs, in that they curl up when frightened or under attack. We don't see Jeremy curl up, but there's almost certainly some connection to hedgehogs beyond having spines. When a hedgehog does curl up, the spines stick out and are 'spiky'. This requires no shapeshifting (although it would be awesome if they could), and so suggests a lack of shapeshifting abilities.

For normal hedgehogs (who lack shapeshifting), I don't think those spines can get harder.

14 hours ago, Trix Marano said:

However, if Jeremy was brought home by Edward, presumably from work, this may actually be from the 'Nest' that we see in Painted Black, as he did go undercover inside there, more than once (7th panel - "It became my duty to infiltrate it"). This suggests a considerable possibility that Jeremy was Uryuom-egg born, and so may have unknown or hidden shapeshifting abilities anyway, as Guineas and Hedge still do.

You DO realize that this explanation was later declared "version for people who are not in the need to know"?

Grace was about 13 at that time. That must've been long time after Edward and Raven stopped talking.

[Trix Marano 4]

19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

For normal hedgehogs (who lack shapeshifting), I don't think those spines can get harder.

I didn't really want to bring this up, but Jeremy's spines need not exactly match that of a hedgehog's, and there is one particular part of the male body in I think both humans and at least cats as well that hardens sans shapeshifting...

19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

You DO realize that this explanation was later declared "version for people who are not in the need to know"?

That may be, but I was not referring to the explanation itself, rather that Edward did infiltrate the lab. If he did so, he most likely would not want/be allowed to have a high rank (higher ranks draw attention), and so not "in the need to know".

19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Grace was about 13 at that time. That must've been long time after Edward and Raven stopped talking.

No clue?? I'm really thinking more on Jeremy and his abilities than anything else. However, as speculation, Max may have escaped and been picked up by Raven from the streets, as Raven himself would almost certainly not allow this unusual creature to be seen by those who are unaware of magic.

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, Trix Marano said:

20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

You DO realize that this explanation was later declared "version for people who are not in the need to know"?

That may be, but I was not referring to the explanation itself, rather that Edward did infiltrate the lab. If he did so, he most likely would not want/be allowed to have a high rank (higher ranks draw attention), and so not "in the need to know".

Note that Edward became friends with Dr Sciuridae and promised to help Grace if she was in trouble. I think it's likely Edward knew the truth about Grace, but created the cover story he told to Grace and the others because he hoped they could take care of the Damien problem without Grace getting involved. Basically as long as Grace didn't know she was created to kill Damien, she wouldn't feel obligated to do so.

It is also possible that Edward wasn't the head of the paranormal division at the time of his infiltrating the facility, though I wouldn't be surprised if his work on that got him the job shortly after since he was certainly the head a couple years later.

1 hour ago, Trix Marano said:

20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Grace was about 13 at that time. That must've been long time after Edward and Raven stopped talking.

No clue?? I'm really thinking more on Jeremy and his abilities than anything else. However, as speculation, Max may have escaped and been picked up by Raven from the streets, as Raven himself would almost certainly not allow this unusual creature to be seen by those who are unaware of magic.

If Grace was 13 when Edward infiltrated the facility she was created in, that would have been roughly around the time that Tedd got the TFG from William and Gillian, Tedd had been working on it for 4 years by the time Grace came to live with him. So that there is proof that Edward and Noriko's divorce was long before an considering Adrian blames himself for their divorce, him and Edward's falling out would be that long ago as well.

[hkmaly 490]

4 hours ago, Trix Marano said:

23 hours ago, hkmaly said:

For normal hedgehogs (who lack shapeshifting), I don't think those spines can get harder.

I didn't really want to bring this up, but Jeremy's spines need not exactly match that of a hedgehog's, and there is one particular part of the male body in I think both humans and at least cats as well that hardens sans shapeshifting...

That's true, but even AFTER getting hard it still isn't hard enough to work as spine. Sure, there are things which it can perforate, but ...

4 hours ago, Trix Marano said:

On 12/21/2016 at 0:22 AM, hkmaly said:

You DO realize that this explanation was later declared "version for people who are not in the need to know"?

That may be, but I was not referring to the explanation itself, rather that Edward did infiltrate the lab. If he did so, he most likely would not want/be allowed to have a high rank (higher ranks draw attention), and so not "in the need to know".

Trying too hard to get quickly to higher rank draws attention. If you get there because the infiltrated group is incompetent or have lack of good people ...

... but, yes, it is likely Edward got this version BECAUSE he didn't get too high. Which would also suggest he couldn't just develop a pet. On the other hand, if Jeremy isn't first generation but second or third - result of the true experimental animals from when they were starting being "reused" as pet by scientist ... maybe Jeremy isn't so unique and there are dozens of "cats" like him. Would explain why Adrian Raven got one: he probably though it's enchanted, took him home then found it isn't.

But note also:

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

Note that Edward became friends with Dr Sciuridae and promised to help Grace if she was in trouble. I think it's likely Edward knew the truth about Grace, but created the cover story he told to Grace and the others because he hoped they could take care of the Damien problem without Grace getting involved. Basically as long as Grace didn't know she was created to kill Damien, she wouldn't feel obligated to do so.

It is also possible that Edward wasn't the head of the paranormal division at the time of his infiltrating the facility, though I wouldn't be surprised if his work on that got him the job shortly after since he was certainly the head a couple years later.

... him not being head of paranormal doesn't explain why he wouldn't know the truth from Dr. Sciuridae. It's weird that they get so close without Edward getting true story.

The bit about all being created at once instead of one after other doesn't even make sense in the "Grace is not in need to know" theory. He might've just withhold the bit about why was Grace created.

It's most likely this was retconned.

Or maybe this was THE last case where Edward tried to not tell the truth to them and how it ended was reason why he decided it was bad idea and it would be better to never feed them misinformations ...

 

[Scotty 1,061]

53 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The bit about all being created at once instead of one after other doesn't even make sense in the "Grace is not in need to know" theory. He might've just withhold the bit about why was Grace created.

It still makes sense if Edward was trying to make it sound like Grace was just another attempt to create the perfect assassin. If Edward had said that Guineas, Hedge and Vlad were created at the same time and Grace was a couple years later, it'd make it seem like there was something special about Grace, saying her brothers were created in intervals would have blended her in with them better.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Or maybe this was THE last case where Edward tried to not tell the truth to them and how it ended was reason why he decided it was bad idea and it would be better to never feed them misinformations ...

He certainly has been more up front with them since that incident, I think he's also realized that the main eight are very likely to find out things on their own whether he's involved or not so he figures he might as well try to guide them as best he can.

Though I wouldn't say that was the last case. While Nanase and Ellen have learned some things, I think there's still much that Edward hasn't disclosed about what happened between him and Noriko, let alone what he's told Tedd about it.

[hkmaly 490]

14 minutes ago, Scotty said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Or maybe this was THE last case where Edward tried to not tell the truth to them and how it ended was reason why he decided it was bad idea and it would be better to never feed them misinformations ...

He certainly has been more up front with them since that incident, I think he's also realized that the main eight are very likely to find out things on their own whether he's involved or not so he figures he might as well try to guide them as best he can.

Though I wouldn't say that was the last case. While Nanase and Ellen have learned some things, I think there's still much that Edward hasn't disclosed about what happened between him and Noriko, let alone what he's told Tedd about it.

There is "not disclosing" and there are misinformations. Edward explained the difference. Although, yes, there are few things especially around Noriko which he seem to actively lie about ...

[ijuin 572]

 

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Trying too hard to get quickly to higher rank draws attention. If you get there because the infiltrated group is incompetent or have lack of good people ...

... but, yes, it is likely Edward got this version BECAUSE he didn't get too high. Which would also suggest he couldn't just develop a pet. On the other hand, if Jeremy isn't first generation but second or third - result of the true experimental animals from when they were starting being "reused" as pet by scientist ... maybe Jeremy isn't so unique and there are dozens of "cats" like him. Would explain why Adrian Raven got one: he probably though it's enchanted, took him home then found it isn't.

It's probably best to be a lesser manager of some type (or a low ranking officer such as First Lieutenant in a military setting in which the boss is a Major or higher). Enough status that people won't question your presence in any but the most restricted areas, but not so high that you're on the short list of leaders who all ought to know each other personally--it's bad to be "recognizable on sight" by the majority of the organization.

Anyway, nobody said that the "developed in sequence" version was the version that Edward had learned--he very likely used it because Elliot, Tedd, and Sarah were not in the "need to know" for the true version.

As for Jeremy, Max, etc. there were probably some of them "left behind" when everybody at the lab died/fled from Damien's attack, so I could see them being adopted as pets as a result, though that doesn't really explain how Adrian got hold of Max (or Max's parent) if he and Edward were already no longer on friendly terms.

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, ijuin said:

It's probably best to be a lesser manager of some type (or a low ranking officer such as First Lieutenant in a military setting in which the boss is a Major or higher). Enough status that people won't question your presence in any but the most restricted areas, but not so high that you're on the short list of leaders who all ought to know each other personally--it's bad to be "recognizable on sight" by the majority of the organization.

Is it?

I think it would be funny if someone under orders to infiltrate some organization end up leading it.

1 hour ago, ijuin said:

Anyway, nobody said that the "developed in sequence" version was the version that Edward had learned--he very likely used it because Elliot, Tedd, and Sarah were not in the "need to know" for the true version.

Which is something he later said he will never do. At least not to Tedd. Because, as I already mentioned, misinformations are dangerous.

1 hour ago, ijuin said:

As for Jeremy, Max, etc. there were probably some of them "left behind" when everybody at the lab died/fled from Damien's attack, so I could see them being adopted as pets as a result, though that doesn't really explain how Adrian got hold of Max (or Max's parent) if he and Edward were already no longer on friendly terms.

Yes ; there are lot of ways how to get Jeremy to Edward, but there seem to be none to get Max to Adrian ... if he's from that lab and not from some earlier case which Edward solved with Adrian's help back when they still were friends.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

Dr Sciuridae's team that eventually developed Grace and her brothers may not have been the only group experimenting with Uryuom enhanced genetic engineering.  An incident even farther back, say when Edward and Noriko were still students of Adrian, might have led that group to a hedgecat breeding farm.

[ijuin 572]

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I think it would be funny if someone under orders to infiltrate some organization end up leading it.

Which is something he later said he will never do. At least not to Tedd. Because, as I already mentioned, misinformations are dangerous.

Yes, but that was Edward's decision then--to STOP giving misinformation, now that the kids were in too deep. Way back when Grace first showed up, he wasn't willing to tell them the whole truth about her origin. After the kids had gotten in deep trouble fighting Damien, was when Edward became certain that they needed to know what they were doing.

As for "someone under orders to infiltrate an organization ending up leading it", there is a VERY notorious example in post-WWI Germany, where a certain former Corporal was assigned to infiltrate a fringe political movement and report on their activities, and ended up taking over the leadership of it.

[hkmaly 490]

17 hours ago, ijuin said:

20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I think it would be funny if someone under orders to infiltrate some organization end up leading it.

Which is something he later said he will never do. At least not to Tedd. Because, as I already mentioned, misinformations are dangerous.

Yes, but that was Edward's decision then--to STOP giving misinformation, now that the kids were in too deep. Way back when Grace first showed up, he wasn't willing to tell them the whole truth about her origin. After the kids had gotten in deep trouble fighting Damien, was when Edward became certain that they needed to know what they were doing.

On 12/22/2016 at 0:36 AM, hkmaly said:

Or maybe this was THE last case where Edward tried to not tell the truth to them and how it ended was reason why he decided it was bad idea and it would be better to never feed them misinformations ...

Already got that idea ...

20 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Dr Sciuridae's team that eventually developed Grace and her brothers may not have been the only group experimenting with Uryuom enhanced genetic engineering.  An incident even farther back, say when Edward and Noriko were still students of Adrian, might have led that group to a hedgecat breeding farm.

On 12/19/2016 at 0:29 AM, hkmaly said:

While the idea of Raven and Edward getting "spoils of war" after the attack on the company producing Hedge and Grace is funny, I don't think the timeline fits and Raven is unlikely to be part of such attack force. More likely, Max and Jeremy are results of independent experiments with uryuoms egs.

... ditto. Although I wouldn't think it was specifically hedgecat breeding farm ... either hedgecat was one experiment they did (well, twice) and then tried something else, or, more funny idea, they wanted something else but some cat messed up their samples.

I would think if someone would be deliberately breeding hedgecats it would be mentioned, because only likely reason is for selling them as pets.

Unless Edward stopped them before going public. That could work.

 

[Trix Marano 4]

On 22/12/2016 at 4:01 AM, hkmaly said:

Yes ; there are lot of ways how to get Jeremy to Edward, but there seem to be none to get Max to Adrian ... if he's from that lab and not from some earlier case which Edward solved with Adrian's help back when they still were friends.

Two explanation quotes...

On 21/12/2016 at 11:36 PM, hkmaly said:

 ... maybe Jeremy isn't so unique and there are dozens of "cats" like him. Would explain why Adrian Raven got one: he probably though it's enchanted, took him home then found it isn't.

 

On 21/12/2016 at 6:40 PM, Trix Marano said:

Max may have escaped and been picked up by Raven from the streets, as Raven himself would almost certainly not allow this unusual creature to be seen by those who are unaware of magic.

 

 

[hkmaly 490]

On 12/24/2016 at 7:58 PM, Trix Marano said:

On 12/22/2016 at 5:01 AM, hkmaly said:

Yes ; there are lot of ways how to get Jeremy to Edward, but there seem to be none to get Max to Adrian ... if he's from that lab and not from some earlier case which Edward solved with Adrian's help back when they still were friends.

Two explanation quotes...

On 12/22/2016 at 0:36 AM, hkmaly said:

 ... maybe Jeremy isn't so unique and there are dozens of "cats" like him. Would explain why Adrian Raven got one: he probably though it's enchanted, took him home then found it isn't.

 

On 12/21/2016 at 7:40 PM, Trix Marano said:

Max may have escaped and been picked up by Raven from the streets, as Raven himself would almost certainly not allow this unusual creature to be seen by those who are unaware of magic.

... yes, the first one is mine

To clarify: If Jeremy and Max are two from small number of hedgecats created in the same lab as Grace, it would be very unlikely Max will get to Adrian Raven, as it would require basically those two running into each other randomly.

Adrian's chance to meet hedgecat rises sharply if the number of hedgecats is much bigger, which would however suggest Max is NOT directly from the lab, but likely second (or third) generation.

Or, they may be from some earlier case as I suggested ... if which case is possible that Adrian and Edward were working at it together and each took one hedgecat.

... hmmm ... Noriko might have third hedgecat ...

 

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

... hmmm ... Noriko might have third hedgecat ...

If Noriko has a third hedgecat, then it seems likely that they encountered the hedgecat breeder before Noriko finally left Edward.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

And the question of whether Max and Jeremy could predate the rift between Edward and Adrian (and Edward and Noriko) is why I was discussing life expectancies of cats and hedgehogs a page or two ago.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 10:50 PM, CritterKeeper said:

In other words, Max and Jeremy could easily be older than Tedd.  In fact, if they were created as part of testing the technique for hybridizing via Uryuom eggs, the usual pattern of testing on animals before testing on humans, it's quite likely they're older than any of the part-human crosses like Hedge and Grace.

A 68 year old manatee is one of my neighbors.  You don't need alien enhanced genetics to have an unusually long lifespan.

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

2 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

A 68 year old manatee is one of my neighbors.  You don't need alien enhanced genetics to have an unusually long lifespan.

I didn't know they had manatees in the Nile.