Human / Immortal Speciation

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,663]

 

So how long ago did Homo Sapiens an Immortals diverge into different species? 

As they are still capable of interbreeding. It must still be a relatively recent event. 

 

[Darth Fluffy 377]

1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

 

So how long ago did Homo Sapiens an Immortals diverge into different species? 

As they are still capable of interbreeding. It must still be a relatively recent event. 

 

It is possible that they can't interbreed, that when it occurs, magic is involved to make it viable. But it seems more likely, given that Pandora carried a baby to full term and birthed him, that they are compatible. Which seems to imply that immortals are what humans become with sufficient access to magic. Beyond that . . . ? ? ?

Even "Which came first?" isn't a given. It seems likely, from our understanding of evolution, that humans came first, but magic is a cognitive wild card. Can't really apply cause and effect here.

Maybe they didn't diverge. Maybe something like magical fey beings noticed humans and began patterning and conforming to the human model.

Maybe they arose from human imagination and use of magic without deriving biologically.

Maybe more important in EGS is are they converging.

[mlooney 3,793]

I would mention that lions and tigers can interbreed, but liger are sterile animals.  And, as we have found out, elves are not.  I suspect magic plays a HUGE role in immortal/human interbreeding.  

[Don Edwards 577]

6 hours ago, mlooney said:

but liger are sterile animals

Usually sterile. This is more true of the males than the females.

Tigons, the offspring of a tiger and a lioness, are the same.

[Darth Fluffy 377]

It is generally true that many hybrids tend toward sterility, however it is not a rule. Weirdly, it is often true within a species, if geographic separation builds distinct populations. There are species which are fertile with neighbors, but individuals from long distances may not be fertile together. 

It seems logical that fairly close individuals within a species may be unable to breed for mechanical reasons - very large and very small dogs, for example, and even if they manage it, the offspring might not be viable; too big might kill the mother, too small might not register as an offspring. 

Human populations seem to be able to interbreed with no problems, evidence that we are all close; but many of us carry other human DNA, such as Neanderthal, which says that some offspring were still fertile when they crossbred.

It seems evident that the immortals are derived from humans; obviously in terms of plot development, but not necessarily true in the EGS universe. If not, they copied human form, perhaps to interact, perhaps convenient for interacting with each other. But Pandora had chaotic forms, and Voltaire had his dragon persona. Are there even rules for them?

[Don Edwards 577]

33 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

It is generally true that many hybrids tend toward sterility, however it is not a rule. Weirdly, it is often true within a species, if geographic separation builds distinct populations. There are species which are fertile with neighbors, but individuals from long distances may not be fertile. together. 

There are also several instances of "ring species." These happen when there's an obstacle to a species' spread that individuals can't cross, but can go around. Said obstacle being quite large, as compared to the distance individuals travel. So they spread around it in both directions, over multiple generations, with slight genetic drift... and when they finally meet again on the far side of the obstacle, the new neighbors can't interbreed. So variety A can cross with variety B, who can mate with variety C, and so on... but A and P, who are next-door neighbors, can't.

(Another puzzle of "where and how do you draw a species line?". Along with the notion that each individual is the same species as their own mother, but if you go some number of generations back then maybe they aren't the same species....)

33 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Human populations seem to be able to interbreed with no problems, evidence that we are all close; but many of us carry other human DNA, such as Neanderthal, which says that some offspring were still fertile when they crossbred.

There are some specimens from north-central Asia that carry the DNA of H.Sapiens Sapiens, H.Sapiens Neanderthalensis, H.Sapiens Denisova, and... um... those other H.Sapiens. Not Heidelbergensis. The ones we know absolutely nothing about except these odd traces of DNA in these specific specimens.

[mlooney 3,793]

I don't think immortals are any form of H. Sapiens.  Like I said, magic.  Lots of magic.

[Darth Fluffy 377]

5 hours ago, mlooney said:

I don't think immortals are any form of H. Sapiens.  Like I said, magic.  Lots of magic.

Theory: A powerful wizard craves immortality (the not dying kind, not the magical being kind). He casts such a spell. When he dies, he dies normally, but due to magic, he persists as a new kind of magical being, he resets as an immortal. Rinse, lather, repeat over many wizards.

A big hole in this is the statement, "All wizards are descendants of immortals". There's got to be a loop hole somewhere around here. <scrounge>

[mlooney 3,793]

They could have been a mutant or have been specially chosen by the Will of Magic.  After a while, they quit selecting wizards to become immortals.

[Don Edwards 577]

3 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

A big hole in this is the statement, "All wizards are descendants of immortals". There's got to be a loop hole somewhere around here. <scrounge>

One big hole in it: take an individual, X. Add some significant number of generations, I'll say about 20 but don't quote me. After that amount of time, one of two numbers will be statistically indistinguishable from zero. Either the number of living descendants of X, or the number of living people who plausibly could be descended from X (based on geography, migrations, and trade routes) but aren't descended from X.

Based on when it appears Raven was born, I'd say that (at least) most humans of European ancestry are descended from Pandora.

 

[ijuin 609]

True, but even if Magic does not care about gene-based inheritance, only some of the offspring of an Elf (or their grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc.) will inherit the “Wizard instead of ordinary Mage” trait. So, while all humans are potential Mages (who can get personal spells), only a fraction are potential Wizards (who can copy spells from Mages).

[mlooney 3,793]

1 hour ago, Don Edwards said:

Based on when it appears Raven was born, I'd say that (at least) most humans of European ancestry are descended from Pandora.

Based on the available evidence, it's been about 600 years.  That not long enough to spread genes over as large of a population as Europe, particularly since the ur source was limited in his “spreading”.

[Don Edwards 577]

I'd say that a guy who believes he's sterile - but isn't - is likely to be less limited in his spreading than the average guy.

[ijuin 609]

That raises the question of whether any of his girlfriends had pregnancies which he blamed on her infidelity towards him, possibly contributing to their breakups and him becoming more jaded about such relationships.

[Darth Fluffy 377]

4 hours ago, ijuin said:

That raises the question of whether any of his girlfriends had pregnancies which he blamed on her infidelity towards him, possibly contributing to their breakups and him becoming more jaded about such relationships.

That is pathetically awful, and entirely plausible.

[ijuin 609]

Yah. “I must be sterile, therefore if she got pregnant then it was because she was cheating on me,” only to find out now, long after several such girlfriends have died of old age, that the children were his all along.

https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2017-06-14 has Pandora confirming that there were multiple instances of Adrian impregnating a girlfriend and not realizing that he was the father.

[mlooney 3,793]

Hmmmm.  This does leave the “I was in my actual 20s” statement by Adrian.  That tends to indicate that he was that big of a horn dog.  Either that or he stayed with all his other “encounters” for more than 9 months, or at least kept track of them, to know they weren't pregnant.

[Darth Fluffy 377]

5 hours ago, ijuin said:

Yah. “I must be sterile, therefore if she got pregnant then it was because she was cheating on me,” only to find out now, long after several such girlfriends have died of old age, that the children were his all along.

https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2017-06-14 has Pandora confirming that there were multiple instances of Adrian impregnating a girlfriend and not realizing that he was the father.

Huh. Yeah, that comic makes more sense in retrospect. I suppose we already had all the facts, but they seem to be put together better in retrospect.

 

57 minutes ago, mlooney said:

Hmmmm.  This does leave the “I was in my actual 20s” statement by Adrian.  That tends to indicate that he was that big of a horn dog.  Either that or he stayed with all his other “encounters” for more than 9 months, or at least kept track of them, to know they weren't pregnant.

That seems a bit harsh, unless you are saying nearly all male teens, and many of the young ladies are all horn dogs. 

 

 

 

[ijuin 609]

We know of at least two offspring fathered by Adrian—the one “in his actual 20s”, who is implied to be Susan’s ancestor, and one 19 years ago, where Diane was conceived. He is thus not so jaded as to have sworn off sleeping with women, but he may have taken a cynical attitude towards monogamy due to the several pregnant girlfriends.

[mlooney 3,793]

1 hour ago, ijuin said:

We know of at least two offspring fathered by Adrian—the one “in his actual 20s”, who is implied to be Susan’s ancestor, and one 19 years ago, where Diane was conceived. He is thus not so jaded as to have sworn off sleeping with women, but he may have taken a cynical attitude towards monogamy due to the several pregnant girlfriends.

Possible.

[mlooney 3,793]

2 hours ago, mlooney said:

Hmmmm.  This does leave the “I was in my actual 20s” statement by Adrian.  That tends to indicate that he was that big of a horn dog.  Either that or he stayed with all his other “encounters” for more than 9 months, or at least kept track of them, to know they weren't pregnant.

DAMN IT. Left out a n't.  That should have read, “That tends to indicate that he wasn't that big of a horn dog.”

[Darth Fluffy 377]

4 hours ago, mlooney said:

DAMN IT. Left out a n't.  That should have read, “That tends to indicate that he wasn't that big of a horn dog.”

Makes a lot more sense.

[mlooney 3,793]

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Makes a lot more sense.

I have a bad habit of dropping negatives, which makes my statements the reverse of what I meant.

[Amiable Dorsai 74]

Reviving an old thread, perhaps Immortals come from another Human lineage entirely, such as Neanderthals or Denisovans who were granted Magic and took things in a different direction. Neanderthals and Sapiens had some interfertility, at least, since some of us have genes that match DNA extracted from Neanderthal remains. Suppose, for example that a few Magical Neanderthals, watching their species go extinct, wished for, worked for and were finally granted spells that led toward Immortal status. They adopted Sapiens as a sort of pet species, that they would advise, torment or ignore as suited any individual Immortal. They're somewhat interfertile, with most, but not all offspring muling out in the first generation. But those few fertile offspring spread Magic among their offspring, who, getting little to no attention from grandparents who forgot them merged into Sapiens society creating Magic lineages among us.

[mlooney 3,793]

Noted for game use.