Story Wednesday March 23, 2016

[hkmaly 490]

10 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Is it simply inevitable that someone who lives for centuries or millennia would eventually see mere humans as pets or toys?

9 hours ago, Hunendora said:

Or be a bit bad at guessing ages?

8 hours ago, Haylo said:

Or clearly remembers when the age for military recruitment was twelve?

Maybe not inevitable, but the risk is high to all of it. It may be another reason it's good idea to reset regularly. Besides the "becoming insane" part.

8 hours ago, SeriousJupiter said:

How do immortals reproduce, anyway?

Do they? (How they do it is likely not that important.)

7 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

I know this theory isn't as popular as it once was, but I'm sticking to it.  Just like I'm sticking to the theory that Sensei Greg and Vladia are now a couple.

I consider Greg and Vladia being couple more likely.

2 hours ago, showler said:

I hope Helena or Demetrius makes a reappearance in their fairy form that they used at the mall, so that fairy Nanase can punch fairy Helena and Demetrius in their fairy face.

It would definitely be worth the risk that immortals are allowed to counterattack in such situation.

1 hour ago, Matoyak said:

I think that Immortals are totally able to find something that a griffin mage created.

Note that the gate was not CREATED by griffin mage. And it may be hard to explain how would that look to immortals. Another griffin? EXTREMELY easy to describe.

1 hour ago, Matoyak said:

Seems they were doing to Andrea what He-Who-Glows-In-The-Dark was doing to Tara.

Hmmmm ... there is also possibility than He-Who-Glows-In-The-Dark was actively shielding Tara and preventing other immortals to notice her ... but no, I don't consider it very likely. Most likely, the only steps Helena and Demetrius did in looking for Tara was to said they did. At least they didn't fed her with additional lies in effort to make her attack magic users like Elliot. (They might tell her some lies to make her attack the vampires, but first, I don't think it was necessary, second, the vampires deserved that anyway.)

 

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, Matoyak said:

That wouldn't explain them having lead Andrea on the whole time she was here, though. Seems they were doing to Andrea what He-Who-Glows-In-The-Dark was doing to Tara.

 

Colonel Sanders way of "guiding" Tara was malevolent, he was leading her on, making her think Andrea was in ......wait a moment....huh...OK even though Andrea technically wasn't in any real danger, the Colonel might have known that Helena and Demetrius have been following Elliot around, as well as having Andrea killing vampires, soo...his riddles might have been telling the truth in a roundabout way that made Tara believe the worst. Still the fact that the Colonel seemed to desire a violent confrontation between Elliot and Tara makes him malevolent.

Helena and Demetrius however, their desire seems to be in protecting people, they don't remember why they're following Elliot but they're certain they're supposed to protect him from something or someone, they also don't remember exactly why they were in France when they encountered Nanase and Susan, they think they were following someone and there's no way to know for sure but I can't help but wonder if it was Nanase. I don't think she was dating Elliot at the time of her France trip but I would imagine they were still in martial arts together before they dated so there would be a link between Elliot and Nanase that Helena and Demetrius recognized, that's just my guess though. Anyway, regardless of their methods, they do seem to genuinely want to help. Heck with the way Arthur Arthur's got DGB going at the moment, I actually wouldn't blame Helena and Demetrius for not trusting him in helping deal with the vampires. That doesn't really explain why they don't just come out and say why they chose Nanase, or why they chose Andrea, but maybe it's their base nature to be vague but with good intentions.

Even though Jerry is aware that Diane is Susan's sister, he also seems to have chosen to keep that info from Susan, or maybe his base nature at the moment doesn't think it's that important to tell anyone, he did seem to think his job was done until his knowledge of his previous life reminded him of the promise. It could be something that all immortals believe they shouldn't get too involved in the affairs of mortals, hence the "only guide and empower" deal, like "just give them enough to handle the current situation, but that's it". Helena's statement that the Colonel was "pushing 'only guide and empower' as far as it'll bend" could mean "you're just supposed to give them the info they ask for and leave them to decide what to do with it, not force them down a specific path". I'm hoping that if Elliot, Nanase and Andrea specifically ask for explanations from Helena and Demetrius, they might feel obligated to do so.

[hkmaly 490]

22 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It could be something that all immortals believe they shouldn't get too involved in the affairs of mortals, hence the "only guide and empower" deal, like "just give them enough to handle the current situation, but that's it". Helena's statement that the Colonel was "pushing 'only guide and empower' as far as it'll bend" could mean "you're just supposed to give them the info they ask for and leave them to decide what to do with it, not force them down a specific path". I'm hoping that if Elliot, Nanase and Andrea specifically ask for explanations from Helena and Demetrius, they might feel obligated to do so.

I agree with the previous paragraphs, but I don't think there is anything in the "guide and empower" against explaining situation little more widely. Forcing is something different.

(Note: Helena obviously don't know about Pandora pushing the guide and empower even MORE.)

[Stormtalon42 29]

6 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

I'd say Nanase's anger is over the concealing of information. I seriously doubt that Andrea was in significant peril at any point (with the possible exception of when she was trying to protect Diane and Charlotte as well as fight Spidey) - and whatever peril she did face, she was probably at least as well equipped to deal with it as Guardian Nanase. But is it believable that the immortals didn't know Tara was in the area? Not to me.

But now? The only ones in peril, I think, are Helena and Demetrius. They aren't innocent. And Nanase going Guardian would increase their peril.

(If they show up, I predict that Andrea will go fangirl over Nanase's magic again. Specifically the fae punch. And the ability to do a rapid-fire barrage with it.)

All quite true -- the question about Fairy Guardian was more of something that just occurred to me as a side-thought rather than anything I expect to actually happen.  

[Scotty 1,061]

11 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I agree with the previous paragraphs, but I don't think there is anything in the "guide and empower" against explaining situation little more widely. Forcing is something different.

(Note: Helena obviously don't know about Pandora pushing the guide and empower even MORE.)

Yeah it's weird that they seem to be doing things that way and not just directly telling them. There's obviously a reason that hopefully we'll see soon.

[ijuin 572]

Hmm, a thought: Might the spike in vampire attacks be part of Sirleck's plan to keep Helena and Demetrius occupied? Sirleck would be ensuring that they encounter every Aberration that comes into the area, both to keep them busy, and to keep them distracted from noticing him (as he said, body snatchers are even more hated than vampires, given that they not only steal a victim's life but also impersonate the victim and steal the victim's reputation and relationships).

[Scotty 1,061]

That's one of those things that only Dan can be sure of. As it is, we know the high magic levels in Moperville is capable of drawing in those sensitive to magic, so really Sirleck wouldn't have to do anything to bring vampires in, the high ambient energy is doing that for him.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

That's one of those things that only Dan can be sure of. As it is, we know the high magic levels in Moperville is capable of drawing in those sensitive to magic, so really Sirleck wouldn't have to do anything to bring vampires in, the high ambient energy is doing that for him.

A completely random thought of mine. I have for a while been wondering if Sirleck has a disgruntled ex out there named Madamleck.

[Ayame 1]

This whole magic flowing from one side to another reminds me of tales of symphonia. Also, those two immortals will need to answer to someone eventually.

[vvaivi 2]

Griffins are chubby. They're the size of hippos.

It's not very likely that Nanase is shaking with anger at Andrea for not wanting to kill immortals vampires.

[Scotty 1,061]

This is an interesting thought. Does Nanase believe that Helena and Demetrius are the same immortals her and Susan met in France, or is she just mad because what Andrea just described reminded her of the France incident? Of course we know they're the same, but Tara's description of them is not exactly how Nanase saw them, but I guess if Susan told Nanase about immortals needing to reset, she could assume that's what happened to Helena and Demetrius.

[SeriousJupiter 49]

After reading all of your comments, I think I'm just going to hold off any further judgement until I hear Helena and Demetrius's side of the story. However, if they won't bother to explain themselves or apologize, then I'll just assume that they're jerks with good intentions. Then again, that's pretty much what all immortals are like (except maybe Jerry). Even Pandora just wants to help her son in the end.

7 hours ago, ijuin said:

Hmm, a thought: Might the spike in vampire attacks be part of Sirleck's plan to keep Helena and Demetrius occupied? Sirleck would be ensuring that they encounter every Aberration that comes into the area, both to keep them busy, and to keep them distracted from noticing him (as he said, body snatchers are even more hated than vampires, given that they not only steal a victim's life but also impersonate the victim and steal the victim's reputation and relationships).

I think that would be possible only if Magus and Sirleck somehow predicted the magic drain getting clogged or caused it themselves. I'm not sure how powerful Sirleck is, but I have a feeling that stopping magic flowing from one half of the world to the other is a little too much for him and we know Magus can't do much in the spirit plane. I know Magus was working with Pandora for a while, but it couldn't be more obvious that she kept a lot of secrets from him. She didn't even tell him her name until she abandoned him, so I don't think Magus could have figured out her master plan so easily.

[Scotty 1,061]

Well Jerry did admit that if he would have loved to see what would have happened if Diane drank the punch, the only thing that made him resist that urge was his previous life's promise to Susan.

Another possibility goes back to the reason why Helena and Demetrius are watching over Elliot in the first place, they don't remember why but they're compelled to. This suggests that they made a promise to someone to do so in their previous life. If that promise included Elliot's friends, like Jerry's promise to Susan included her friends and family, then that could explain why they were in France when Nanase and Susan were there, It's also possible that the promise included not letting it known of their connection to Elliot, or whoever they made their promise to. So of course they wouldn't tell Nanase and Susan that they specifically asked their help killing the vampire because Nanase was Elliot's friend, and maybe they wanted Andrea to stick around and kill the vampires because they weren't sure if Elliot and his friends to ready to handle that many, as strong as Nanase is, she might not be able to deal with that much herself and it's clear that Elliot and the rest are not strong enough or skilled enough to utilize their abilities. Again one could argue that they should go to DGB or something, but if Helena and Demetrius promised to protect Elliot and friends, then they probably believe there's something special about him and so they probably need to make sure that he and his friends are capable of handling whatever dangers they may face. The big question is, who did they make the promise to?

[hkmaly 490]

2 hours ago, Ayame said:

Also, those two immortals will need to answer to someone eventually.

I don't think so. Who would they be forced to answer to?

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

This is an interesting thought. Does Nanase believe that Helena and Demetrius are the same immortals her and Susan met in France, or is she just mad because what Andrea just described reminded her of the France incident? Of course we know they're the same, but Tara's description of them is not exactly how Nanase saw them, but I guess if Susan told Nanase about immortals needing to reset, she could assume that's what happened to Helena and Demetrius.

"Believe" may be too definite word, but "suspect" may be entering picture ... and "reminded" definitely.

 

[partner555 170]

56 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think so. Who would they be forced to answer to?

 

 

Presumably, other Immortals. Don't forget they have these rules in place, and violating them incurs the wrath of other Immortals. I'm sure there are more nice ones than just Jerry.

[ijuin 572]

Given that the Immortals have laws among themselves that they take seriously, it follows that they probably have some means of enforcing them and enforcing punishments--even if there are no Immortall "Sheriffs" (i.e. persons tasked specifically with finding and arresting violators), there is probably some sort of Immortal Court/Council that would be empowered to sit in judgement of accused violators. The fact that they worry about violations instead of dismissing them as improbable says that their laws are not enforced solely by a geas placed upon them forcing them to obey the letter of their oaths (if not the spirit), but rather that their society bears some or most of the burden of enforcement.

[hkmaly 490]

On 03/25/2016 at 3:10 AM, partner555 said:

Presumably, other Immortals. Don't forget they have these rules in place, and violating them incurs the wrath of other Immortals. I'm sure there are more nice ones than just Jerry.

But they didn't violated the rules. Even The Illuminated one and Pandora only BEND the rules, not violated them.

18 hours ago, ijuin said:

Given that the Immortals have laws among themselves that they take seriously, it follows that they probably have some means of enforcing them and enforcing punishments--even if there are no Immortall "Sheriffs" (i.e. persons tasked specifically with finding and arresting violators), there is probably some sort of Immortal Court/Council that would be empowered to sit in judgement of accused violators. The fact that they worry about violations instead of dismissing them as improbable says that their laws are not enforced solely by a geas placed upon them forcing them to obey the letter of their oaths (if not the spirit), but rather that their society bears some or most of the burden of enforcement.

My understanding is that there is magical mean which alert others to breaking of the rule, but which won't actually enforce it, or at least cannot be relied upon regarding the enforcement itself.

So, the hypothetical Court/Council may not be needed to find or arrest the violators, they may not even need to prove the guilt, all they need to do is pass sentence and execute it.

[Scotty 1,061]

3 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

 

My understanding is that there is magical mean which alert others to breaking of the rule...

Maybe not though, would Jerry think that Immortals owed Susan a debt if Helena and Demetrius were just simply bending the rules? He didn't know that they did anything until he met Susan, Grace and Sarah. Immortals might rely on just observation to determine if another Immortal has crossed any lines. In the case of Pandora, marking people without their knowledge is worse than what Helena and Demetrius did to Susan and Nanase. Especially in the case of Dex where she pretty much had control of him through that pendant.

 

[hkmaly 490]

17 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Maybe not though, would Jerry think that Immortals owed Susan a debt if Helena and Demetrius were just simply bending the rules? He didn't know that they did anything until he met Susan, Grace and Sarah. Immortals might rely on just observation to determine if another Immortal has crossed any lines. In the case of Pandora, marking people without their knowledge is worse than what Helena and Demetrius did to Susan and Nanase. Especially in the case of Dex where she pretty much had control of him through that pendant.

 

Yes.

Jerry doesn't consider the immortal rules to be sufficient to judge behaviour. He don't think that just because Helena and Demetrius didn't broke the rules they behaved correctly.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Yes.

Jerry doesn't consider the immortal rules to be sufficient to judge behaviour. He don't think that just because Helena and Demetrius didn't broke the rules they behaved correctly.

It is so in every human society I have ever heard of. They all have rules and these may all too often be treated in a manner that follows them to the letter while utterly breaking them in spirit.

[Scotty 1,061]

This makes me even more worried that the Immortals might not know that Magic has a will of it's own and what Pandora's doing may cause Magic to force a system change. So at the moment if other Immortals are aware of Pandora's actions, they may be like "yeah, she really shouldn't be doing that, but she hasn't actually broken the 'guide and empower' rule so there isn't much we can do about it." If they became aware that Magic could change how things worked because of her actions, they may consider that a good enough reason to act against her.

[ijuin 572]

14 hours ago, Scotty said:

 Especially in the case of Dex where she pretty much had control of him through that pendant.

Yes, overriding a being's free will to the point where they will obey a command to commit suicide is likely one of the most heinous things that Immortals can do to non-Immortals.

[hkmaly 490]

22 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

It is so in every human society I have ever heard of. They all have rules and these may all too often be treated in a manner that follows them to the letter while utterly breaking them in spirit.

In most human societies, the rules are NOT followed to the letter either, especially in the "Nemo iudex sine actor" cases (there is no judge without the prosecutor - or how you translate it).

15 hours ago, Scotty said:

This makes me even more worried that the Immortals might not know that Magic has a will of it's own and what Pandora's doing may cause Magic to force a system change. So at the moment if other Immortals are aware of Pandora's actions, they may be like "yeah, she really shouldn't be doing that, but she hasn't actually broken the 'guide and empower' rule so there isn't much we can do about it." If they became aware that Magic could change how things worked because of her actions, they may consider that a good enough reason to act against her.

Beware: they may not be ABLE to directly act against her until she breaks the law - it would mean THEY break the law, which could give Pandora advantage.

(I mean, it would be different law than the "empower and guide" one, but it seems extremely likely there IS law against direct attack.)

[The Old Hack 2,448]

On 3/26/2016 at 5:57 AM, hkmaly said:

In most human societies, the rules are NOT followed to the letter either, especially in the "Nemo iudex sine actor" cases (there is no judge without the prosecutor - or how you translate it).

That is precisely my point. If there is no formal Immortal judicial system and most Immortals can only be arsed to act when there is a clear violation of the rules, what, then, is there to stop Pandora? Certainly no judge, prosecutor or jury.