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Scotty

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Story: Monday February 20, 2017

51 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, Scotty said:

That doesn't make much sense considering there are "whales" that consume excess energy on the main half.

It does make you wonder how the energy is produced to begin with, is it a byproduct of another process? Is it the same as how humans and other animals breath oxygen and give off carbon dioxide, and then plants take in the carbon dioxide and give off oxygen? If the "whales" eat magic, what do they give off as waste and then what takes the waste and turns it back into magic?

On the flip side it could be that the whales are non-terrestrial and are simply attracted through space to the the buildup of excess magical energy on our side of the world. Since they have shown that they can't eat it all, Magic might have just written off whatever they eat as a loss.

 

Well, my great-grandmother was a fairly prominent occultist around the turn of the last century. I could tell you what she thought magic was, it would likely have no relation to what is going on in the comic though.

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46 minutes ago, Dabat said:

On the flip side it could be that the whales are non-terrestrial and are simply attracted through space to the the buildup of excess magical energy on our side of the world. Since they have shown that they can't eat it all, Magic might have just written off whatever they eat as a loss.

The whale that contacted Tedd said that they maintain the health of the world by feeding on excess energy, so they seem to exist as a counter to whatever produces it. The thing is though, it talks about the buildup as if something is producing magic at a rate that the whales can't keep up with, which suggests that the whales aren't aware of the other half of the world and that the reason for the buildup isn't because of increased production, but of a blockage of flow.

But the whale did know that there was something special about Tedd and referred to her as a "Dangerous Rarity" so I'm guessing the whales are possibly aware of the Will of Magic and system changes. Maybe the whales are older than Pandora's current incarnation and witnessed the last system change?

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32 minutes ago, Scotty said:

The whale that contacted Tedd said that they maintain the health of the world by feeding on excess energy, so they seem to exist as a counter to whatever produces it. The thing is though, it talks about the buildup as if something is producing magic at a rate that the whales can't keep up with, which suggests that the whales aren't aware of the other half of the world and that the reason for the buildup isn't because of increased production, but of a blockage of flow.

But the whale did know that there was something special about Tedd and referred to her as a "Dangerous Rarity" so I'm guessing the whales are possibly aware of the Will of Magic and system changes. Maybe the whales are older than Pandora's current incarnation and witnessed the last system change?

If I were a whale that ate magic and I was contacting someone who used magic, I'd tell her I was helpful too. I agree it is possible the whales do not know about the other side of the world, but it is also possible it considered the information about the other side of the world to be irrelevant to their warning. Either way, it seems that the whales (well, whale, we only saw one, and it may have been acting alone) either have a lot of empathy for Tedd, or will likely be somehow harmed by a magical reset.

 

Other then that, as far as magic goes, there are a few things we do know.

-Magic has a will, it has something it wants. It seems to want to be used, but not widely known.

-Magic is kind. While it can be terribly destructive. It normally either kills you or leaves no lasting damage. Spells that should be tremendously dangerous, like TF magic, are safe.

-Summons/constructs come from somewhere, and it has been hinted (or rather, lack of hinting seems to indicate) that place is not what Ed Verres has called 'the spirit world'. And that constructs of a similar flavor are similar enough that Mr. Verres was able to determine type based on partial descriptions ('fire' people and the bloodgrem)

-Spells do not seem to be unique, perhaps it is because of human psychology, but there do seem to be a limited number of them.

-Magic seems to be different by species, or at least the world a person species comes from.

-Magic, or the free energy that powers magical spells, moves, much like a undersea current.

Anything I missed?

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1 hour ago, Dabat said:

If I were a whale that ate magic and I was contacting someone who used magic, I'd tell her I was helpful too. I agree it is possible the whales do not know about the other side of the world, but it is also possible it considered the information about the other side of the world to be irrelevant to their warning.

I would figure that if it knew that it was a clog preventing the energy from flowing, they'd have said so instead of describing it as a contagion. There's nothing preventing them from stating that energy flows and that a blockage can cause the buildup, aside from the point at which energy flows through being beyond their detection as well, they at least were aware that causing the buildup was the work of a being of great power, though they didn't know exactly who.

1 hour ago, Dabat said:

(well, whale, we only saw one, and it may have been acting alone)

It always referred to itself as "we" so either it's a collective intelligence among whales, or there was an agreement among them to have one of them make contact.

1 hour ago, Dabat said:

-Magic is kind. While it can be terribly destructive. It normally either kills you or leaves no lasting damage. Spells that should be tremendously dangerous, like TF magic, are safe.

Magic has a flair for the dramatic and may troll people as well, I wouldn't really call it kind, maybe capricious.

2 hours ago, Dabat said:

-Summons/constructs come from somewhere, and it has been hinted (or rather, lack of hinting seems to indicate) that place is not what Ed Verres has called 'the spirit world'. And that constructs of a similar flavor are similar enough that Mr. Verres was able to determine type based on partial descriptions ('fire' people and the bloodgrem)

The fire golems, fairies and Fox, are constructs, they are created by the cast and have limited ability and run of the caster's subconscious, summons like the bloodgrem can't be a construct because they have their own intelligence and own behaviour, the one Abraham summoned showed this by choosing to ignore Abraham's instruction to use no critical force if discovered.

2 hours ago, Dabat said:

-Spells do not seem to be unique, perhaps it is because of human psychology, but there do seem to be a limited number of them.

The spells people get are a reflection of their personality combined with how they use, two people that have the same interests might get the same initial spell, but if they use them differently, any new spells would be different. And then if spells can be upgraded like Nanase's fairy avatar, then the upgrades could be different between people as well.

2 hours ago, Dabat said:

-Magic seems to be different by species, or at least the world a person species comes from.

I still think the energy itself is a universal thing, like dark matter or something, the Will might just be associated with Earth species though, Uryuom's power is an internal energy and so their home planet wouldn't need a Will, other planets might have their own Wills governing a magic system for inhabitants there or maybe not. Whether or not a human can avoid losing their magic should the system change by leaving Earth is probably more complicated.

2 hours ago, Dabat said:

-Magic, or the free energy that powers magical spells, moves, much like a undersea current.

It has a flow, yes. It flows from one half of the world to the other through nexus points. It'd be safe to assume that when the energy reaches the other side, it flows towards other points where it returns to the first half.

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4 hours ago, Scotty said:

It always referred to itself as "we" so either it's a collective intelligence among whales, or there was an agreement among them to have one of them make contact

True enough. Though I've also wondered from time to time if the whale wasn't Pandora. I don't think it is, but I wouldn't put it past her.

 

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

Magic has a flair for the dramatic and may troll people as well, I wouldn't really call it kind, maybe capricious.

Kind perhaps wasn't the right word, but I certainly would not call it cruel. Capricious is fitting.

 

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

The spells people get are a reflection of their personality combined with how they use, two people that have the same interests might get the same initial spell, but if they use them differently, any new spells would be different

I had forgotten that spells could modify themselves. That opens up a few new doors for research (in universe). I wonder if spells like the Guardian Form can be modified.

 

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

Uryuom's power is an internal energy and so their home planet wouldn't need a Will

Which brings up the question of if Uryuoms (and more specifically specifically Lespuko) are natural reservoirs of magic, or if they are simply better at metabolizing (for lack of a better word) their own body's natural magical power.

 

I do want to say that I am not trying to be pedantic, I am simply stuck with a very inquisitive mind and when I am interested in something I can't *NOT* ask questions like this. I either voice them or they go round and round in my head until something else takes the attention. Thanks for being a springboard.

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1 minute ago, The Old Hack said:

And here I thought I had found a fellow pedant. :(

Oh, don't get me wrong. I can be VERY pedantic when I want to. Wait until you see me on a history debate. :)

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17 hours ago, Wanderer said:

Because of course universal cosmic forces are always known to be open to compromising. I suppose Elliot's going to negotiate with gravity next?

Elliot can fly, he doesn't need to negotiate. Neither does Grace and Nanase for that matter. Not sure about Ellen, depending on if she still has access to the Angel spell.

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Nanase's Guardian form MAY require divine intervention to use.  And Ellen's access to it is only within the limits of her copy spell. 

1 hour ago, Dabat said:

Wait until you see me on a history debate.

 There is no debate.  There is no history.

History consists of documentation and human memory.  Records can be changed.  Memory can be confused, corrupted, discredited, or forgotten.

History is what the historians say it is.  Like most professional academics, historians are obscenely underpaid.  This leaves them vulnerable to threats, especially loss of job and rejection by publishers.  They are likewise ill equipped to resist bribes.

He who controls the present controls the past.  He who controls the past controls the future.  He who controls the remote controls the world (within ten feet of the television).

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Just now, Dabat said:

I had forgotten that spells could modify themselves. That opens up a few new doors for research (in universe). I wonder if spells like the Guardian Form can be modified.

Nanase's Guardian Form seemed to be fully kitted out from the get go so I'm not sure if it could get any upgrades. Then again, from Pandora's description, Nanase's Guardian Form does seem to be tailored to her personality so Guardian Forms could vary in appearance and abilities from person to person.

Just now, Dabat said:

Which brings up the question of if Uryuoms (and more specifically specifically Lespuko) are natural reservoirs of magic, or if they are simply better at metabolizing (for lack of a better word) their own body's natural magical power.

I had likened how Uryuoms generate their power to how humans generate body heat, so it's likely part of the metabolic process for Uryuoms. Humans do have the capacity to do similar though as evidenced by Nanase being able to burn calories for extra magic, I don't know if that's possible for all humans or if it is an ability one could get as they learn magic, I think the fact the wizards and monsters being drawn to high areas of energy suggests that Nanase's ability isn't common.

Just now, partner555 said:

Elliot can fly, he doesn't need to negotiate. Neither does Grace and Nanase for that matter. Not sure about Ellen, depending on if she still has access to the Angel spell.

Does praying to God count as negotiating?

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2 hours ago, partner555 said:

Elliot can fly, he doesn't need to negotiate. Neither does Grace and Nanase for that matter. Not sure about Ellen, depending on if she still has access to the Angel spell.

Ellen's Copy spell gives her another option.  If she has access to a zoo or menagerie she could have a lot of transportation choices.

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10 hours ago, Scotty said:

{The whale} always referred to itself as "we" so either it's a collective intelligence among whales, or there was an agreement among them to have one of them make contact.

Or, alternatively, it was a single whale assuming the authority to speak for other whales. Of course, most of what it said about whales was basically about their metabolism and environmental needs, which would be substantially similar for all of its kind.

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

The fire golems, fairies and Fox, are constructs, they are created by the cast and have limited ability and run of the caster's subconscious, summons like the bloodgrem can't be a construct because they have their own intelligence and own behaviour, the one Abraham summoned showed this by choosing to ignore Abraham's instruction to use no critical force if discovered.

I disagree with the logic regarding the bloodgrem, but agree with the conclusion. Constructs have the ability of independent action - otherwise, most of the time, they would be useless - and there's no inherent reason that ability can't extend to overriding the creator's instructions.

On the other hand, consider that the bloodgrem was disrupted by Elliot, and then Abraham re-summoned it so it could report back. A construct wouldn't initially know anything not known by its creator. So - if the bloodgrem were a construct - either the re-summoned critter would not know anything to report, or Abraham would already have that information and there'd be no need to re-summon the thing. The sequence of events doesn't make much sense unless the bloodgrem has its own independent existence and knowledge.

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40 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

I disagree with the logic regarding the bloodgrem, but agree with the conclusion. Constructs have the ability of independent action - otherwise, most of the time, they would be useless - and there's no inherent reason that ability can't extend to overriding the creator's instructions.

On the other hand, consider that the bloodgrem was disrupted by Elliot, and then Abraham re-summoned it so it could report back. A construct wouldn't initially know anything not known by its creator. So - if the bloodgrem were a construct - either the re-summoned critter would not know anything to report, or Abraham would already have that information and there'd be no need to re-summon the thing. The sequence of events doesn't make much sense unless the bloodgrem has its own independent existence and knowledge.

There's a plane of existence where Immortals and certain types of aberrations reside in, why couldn't there be a plane of existence where other creatures live and could be summoned from by wizards to become their familiars and such. Constructs are basically disposable units, while something like a bloodgrem would require some sort of bond, either the summon spell automatically made the bloodgrem obey Abraham, or a wizard could form an attachment between the familiar and themself to the point where the familiar is loyal.

I'd say that summoning is a broad category and below that you have separate subcategories for constructs, familiars, objects, etc.

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Yes, we appear to have at least three categories already:

Object: Inanimate, has no lifelike qualities,, but may have various magical effects attached to it.

Automaton: Acts like a pseudo-living entity either in a set pattern or under instructions or direct control from the caster.

Creature: Acts like a fully-living entity with a mind of its own--may have an existence outside of when it is called to do the caster's bidding.

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56 minutes ago, ijuin said:

Creature: Acts like a fully-living entity with a mind of its own--may have an existence outside of when it is called to do the caster's bidding.

...Or has an accumulated memory of all previous times it was summoned.

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On 2/20/2017 at 1:51 PM, WR...S said:

Well, some things he cannot change, but 'till he tries, he'll never know.

ISWYDT  :-)

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2 hours ago, ijuin said:

Automaton: Acts like a pseudo-living entity either in a set pattern or under instructions or direct control from the caster.

I would mention subconscious control specifically, because it doesn't seem to match either the instruction or the direct control. And, apparently, it's pretty COMMON way how to direct automatons.

9 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:
12 hours ago, partner555 said:

Elliot can fly, he doesn't need to negotiate. Neither does Grace and Nanase for that matter. Not sure about Ellen, depending on if she still has access to the Angel spell.

Ellen's Copy spell gives her another option.  If she has access to a zoo or menagerie she could have a lot of transportation choices.

She can transform to ANY bird. Pigeon, (sea)gull, duck, sparrow ... anything. Not sure how it works in US, but here I see several birds almost every time I look around (outside, obviously).

10 hours ago, Scotty said:
12 hours ago, partner555 said:

Elliot can fly, he doesn't need to negotiate. Neither does Grace and Nanase for that matter. Not sure about Ellen, depending on if she still has access to the Angel spell.

Does praying to God count as negotiating?

Yes.

Also, Elliot's flying doesn't mean he somehow avoids the need to negotiate. It just shows how bad gravity is in negotiating.

10 hours ago, Scotty said:
13 hours ago, Dabat said:

Which brings up the question of if Uryuoms (and more specifically specifically Lespuko) are natural reservoirs of magic, or if they are simply better at metabolizing (for lack of a better word) their own body's natural magical power.

I had likened how Uryuoms generate their power to how humans generate body heat, so it's likely part of the metabolic process for Uryuoms. Humans do have the capacity to do similar though as evidenced by Nanase being able to burn calories for extra magic, I don't know if that's possible for all humans or if it is an ability one could get as they learn magic, I think the fact the wizards and monsters being drawn to high areas of energy suggests that Nanase's ability isn't common.

Humans DO generate magic. Elliot's problems with magic buildup was caused by not being able to STOP generating magic. Normal people don't produce MUCH magic and are not able to use it but they do produce some.

10 hours ago, Scotty said:
13 hours ago, Dabat said:

I had forgotten that spells could modify themselves. That opens up a few new doors for research (in universe). I wonder if spells like the Guardian Form can be modified.

Nanase's Guardian Form seemed to be fully kitted out from the get go so I'm not sure if it could get any upgrades. Then again, from Pandora's description, Nanase's Guardian Form does seem to be tailored to her personality so Guardian Forms could vary in appearance and abilities from person to person.

Nanase's Guardian Form SEEMED to be fully kitted, but I wouldn't rule out possibility of additional upgrades. The basic attributes - someone needs to be in danger, being burned out after use etc - are probably non-negotiable, though.

Regarding other people, note that it's called GUARDIAN form. Not angel form. It's possible it's not looking anything like angel for other people - like, it can be guardian spirit for native american.

10 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

History consists of documentation and human memory.  Records can be changed.  Memory can be confused, corrupted, discredited, or forgotten.

History is what the historians say it is.  Like most professional academics, historians are obscenely underpaid.  This leaves them vulnerable to threats, especially loss of job and rejection by publishers.  They are likewise ill equipped to resist bribes.

YOU of all people should be aware how current historians often recover records which someone tried to remove. Pharaoh Hatshepsut, for example. Or Akhenaten.

It's true that history is unreliable. But the people with threats and bribes usually only care for RECENT history. Ancient history is not controlled by anyone (mostly due to lack of interest) and how it look is not how the last people who wanted to change it wanted it to look ... it's much more complicated.

18 hours ago, Scotty said:
21 hours ago, Dabat said:

Magic, or the free energy that powers magical spells, moves, much like a undersea current.

It has a flow, yes. It flows from one half of the world to the other through nexus points. It'd be safe to assume that when the energy reaches the other side, it flows towards other points where it returns to the first half.

Actually, one idea: what if the magic NEEDS to be consumed and re-generated on every half? Like, what if the magic which clogged in Moperville is actually more dangerous, because it was supposed to go to other half, be used there and THEN return?

.... hmmm ... ok, may not really match anything in EGS, considering noone seem to have problems using it ...

23 hours ago, Scotty said:
23 hours ago, Dabat said:

Or both halves have the same will, but 'free' magical energy is finite. Our side is supposed to be the one where excess magical energy is produced and the other is supposed to be the one to use it up.

That doesn't make much sense considering there are "whales" that consume excess energy on the main half.

It does make you wonder how the energy is produced to begin with, is it a byproduct of another process? Is it the same as how humans and other animals breath oxygen and give off carbon dioxide, and then plants take in the carbon dioxide and give off oxygen?

... would actually match my idea about being consumed and re-generated on every half. But it seems griffins use same magic as our humans, so no.

It seems more likely that the magical energy is infinite and the flow is just a way to keep it dispersed, roughly same density everywhere.

18 hours ago, Scotty said:

I still think the energy itself is a universal thing, like dark matter or something, the Will might just be associated with Earth species though, Uryuom's power is an internal energy and so their home planet wouldn't need a Will, other planets might have their own Wills governing a magic system for inhabitants there or maybe not.

I think Uryuom do have or at least had some entity like will of magic, but it's list of objectives was apparently much simpler.

18 hours ago, Scotty said:

Whether or not a human can avoid losing their magic should the system change by leaving Earth is probably more complicated.

Leaving Earth by spaceship, likely not. But going to other half of universe or different universe, thats question ...

22 hours ago, Scotty said:

But the whale did know that there was something special about Tedd and referred to her as a "Dangerous Rarity" so I'm guessing the whales are possibly aware of the Will of Magic and system changes. Maybe the whales are older than Pandora's current incarnation and witnessed the last system change?

They may just have better records.

 

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40 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Humans DO generate magic. Elliot's problems with magic buildup was caused by not being able to STOP generating magic. Normal people don't produce MUCH magic and are not able to use it but they do produce some.

The fact that Ellen was suggesting to Elliot that leaving town for a few days would help stop the buildups makes me think that it's not so much an out of control generation, but an inability to regulate the absorption of energy from the environment, it's like all ports are* open and he is unable to stop. If he was to have left town and gotten out of the high energy area, it could have allowed his system to adjust to a more manageable rate.

*Or maybe were if his buildups have stopped with his realization that he loves the girly forms.

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13 hours ago, partner555 said:

Elliot can fly, he doesn't need to negotiate. Neither does Grace and Nanase for that matter. Not sure about Ellen, depending on if she still has access to the Angel spell.

 

11 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Ellen's Copy spell gives her another option.  If she has access to a zoo or menagerie she could have a lot of transportation choices.

42 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

She can transform to ANY bird. Pigeon, (sea)gull, duck, sparrow ... anything. Not sure how it works in US, but here I see several birds almost every time I look around (outside, obviously).

Which birds are available depends on location and season.  That is part of the reason I suggested a menagerie.  There may not be a useful bird outside you door at any given moment.  If I were stocking her aviary, I would consider Homing Pigeons, Hawks, Geese, and Road Runners.  And of course there must be a swallow.

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2 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Which birds are available depends on location and season.  That is part of the reason I suggested a menagerie.  There may not be a useful bird outside you door at any given moment.  If I were stocking her aviary, I would consider Homing Pigeons, Hawks, Geese, and Road Runners.  And of course there must be a swallow.

European Swallow or African Swallow? ;)

Actually, would the copy spell give Ellen an exact bird form? We saw her become a copy of Brownie, but Q&A#6 states that the TFG couldn't give a person hollow bones, would the copy spell be capable of doing that? Or just give a close enough bird form but she's still a mammal inside? I would imagine it might not matter because her flight could be powered by magic anyway if the spell allowed for it.

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13 hours ago, Scotty said:

European Swallow or African Swallow? ;)

Actually, would the copy spell give Ellen an exact bird form? We saw her become a copy of Brownie, but Q&A#6 states that the TFG couldn't give a person hollow bones, would the copy spell be capable of doing that? Or just give a close enough bird form but she's still a mammal inside? I would imagine it might not matter because her flight could be powered by magic anyway if the spell allowed for it.

Sure it could. 

Uryouom magic works by one set of rules and can't give a person with solid bones hollow ones.

Earth magic works by a different set of rules and has a whole different set of advantages and limits

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20 hours ago, Scotty said:
21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Humans DO generate magic. Elliot's problems with magic buildup was caused by not being able to STOP generating magic. Normal people don't produce MUCH magic and are not able to use it but they do produce some.

The fact that Ellen was suggesting to Elliot that leaving town for a few days would help stop the buildups makes me think that it's not so much an out of control generation, but an inability to regulate the absorption of energy from the environment, it's like all ports are* open and he is unable to stop. If he was to have left town and gotten out of the high energy area, it could have allowed his system to adjust to a more manageable rate.

We also know from the whale that the ambient magic makes energy buildups harder to deal with. But Edward explained the energy buildups as inability to stop energy regeneration. I don't think he is mistaken ; probably, ambient magic either makes you absorb more or lose less, but the main mechanism is the energy regeneration.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
17 hours ago, Scotty said:

Actually, would the copy spell give Ellen an exact bird form? We saw her become a copy of Brownie, but Q&A#6 states that the TFG couldn't give a person hollow bones, would the copy spell be capable of doing that? Or just give a close enough bird form but she's still a mammal inside? I would imagine it might not matter because her flight could be powered by magic anyway if the spell allowed for it.

Sure it could. 

Uryouom magic works by one set of rules and can't give a person with solid bones hollow ones.

Earth magic works by a different set of rules and has a whole different set of advantages and limits

Yes - earth magic works differently so it may make her "true" bird.

On the other hand, based on the fact she was still able to speak as cat, I wouldn't rule out magic help with the flight either.

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Between magical energy recovery being greatest while asleep and non-sapients needing to starve themselves to shed an enchantment, I think magical energy generation might be tied to biological processes.

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11 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Between magical energy recovery being greatest while asleep and non-sapients needing to starve themselves to shed an enchantment, I think magical energy generation might be tied to biological processes.

It's also possible magical energy recovery is greatest if you are not moving, creating "personal ambient magic field". And sleeping is just the most obvious case of not moving for long time.

Most likely, though, both effect contribute.

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