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Scotty

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NP: Friday February 24, 2017

93 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

The rules are rather looser in stores selling packaged liquor; however in some circumstances they also will have to check the age of persons other than the person technically buying the booze. (Also, if a teenager outside the liquor store hands you money, you go in and buy booze, and hand the bottle to the teenager after you leave, YOU may be in trouble. As well as the teenager. And if there's good reason to think the store staff witnessed the outdoor transactions, them too.)

Yeah, the vendor is liable for as long as the alcohol is consumed on the premises. If, for example, Rick is 21 and walked into a liquor store alone and bought a case of beer, then walked around the corner to meet up with Elijah and Rhea who was still 19-20 and proceeded to drink with them, the liquor store is no longer liable because they have no control of what happens after the beer leaves the store. I think vendors do hold the right to refuse sale if they suspect that someone is buying for underaged people but it can be difficult to confirm.

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2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Yeah, the vendor is liable for as long as the alcohol is consumed on the premises. If, for example, Rick is 21 and walked into a liquor store alone and bought a case of beer, then walked around the corner to meet up with Elijah and Rhea who was still 19-20 and proceeded to drink with them, the liquor store is no longer liable because they have no control of what happens after the beer leaves the store. I think vendors do hold the right to refuse sale if they suspect that someone is buying for underaged people but it can be difficult to confirm.

If the store has reason to believe the alcohol is being bought for someone else, they are obligated to require the ID of the person or persons that will receive it.

When I worked at WalMart, one of the training videos detailed an instance where the cashier had reason to suspect the alcohol was being bought for underage individuals, but allowed the sale to go through. Then the alcohol was taken to a party, where an underage drinker died of alcohol poisoning. The cashier was held liable for that. (I don't remember what all she had to deal with, but she lost her job at the least)

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There's also the chance that the teenager asking you to buy them liquor, or the customer making it obvious they're making a straw purchase for a teen, is working for local law enforcement, wearing a wire, and being videotaped....

I usually had the opposite problem.  I had no interest in drinking, but looked old enough to.  I grew up in a college town, and often was friends with older students through clubs or social organizations.  I'd go somewhere with them for lunch, they'd order a pitcher of beer, and the waiter would bring enough beer glasses for everyone.  I'd usually hold mine up and tell them pointedly, "Excuse me!  I'm sixteen, you might want to take this back...."  Occasionally they'd then sheepishly (but correctly) card the rest of the table, more often they'd just take the glass and disappear without a word.  It was almost enough to make me want to call up the cops and ask if they were in need of a teenager to check which bars and restaurants were ignoring the law.

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16 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

In most states, whatever the "legal drinking age" is, everyone consuming alcohol in a bar or restaurant must be at least that age. Doesn't matter if you're with your parents and they are ordering a glass of wine for you - you gotta be "of age".

Interesting. So in US, parents are not expected to be responsible. (It's probably right, you shouldn't expect so much ...)

16 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

In general I don't think much of the fear of most US governments that someone somewhere might be enjoying themselves without official permission - but when it comes to kids getting unconstrained access to intoxicants... yeah, there should be some obstacles to that plan.

It definitely makes much more sense than US governments attempts to prevent children seeing boobies.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

 I'd go somewhere with them for lunch, they'd order a pitcher of beer, and the waiter would bring enough beer glasses for everyone.

Putting aside your age, what about designated drivers?

 

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Interesting. So in US, parents are not expected to be responsible. (It's probably right, you shouldn't expect so much ...)

AFAIK parents are only responsible in cases where they are expected to be present or aware of the child's action. If the kid receives alcohol in the parents' presence, or the parent is complicit in providing the alcohol, then the parent shares liability. If the kid goes off and gets alcohol in a manner in which the parents can not reasonably be expected to know about, then at worst the parents are liable simply for not knowing what their kid is up to.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Interesting. So in US, parents are not expected to be responsible. (It's probably right, you shouldn't expect so much ...)

People can't seem to teach their dogs to behave in public at a high enough rate, why should they do any better with their kids?

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

It definitely makes much more sense than US governments attempts to prevent children seeing boobies.

That has never made sense to me, any more than Victorian worries about seeing naked ankles.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Putting aside your age, what about designated drivers?

Eh, on campus most students walk or take the bus.  They deliberately make it very expensive to have a car, otherwise they'd need about ten times the land just for everyone to park.  Campus has a large number of bus routes, excellent bike paths, and plenty of sidewalks and paths.  It's one of the things I really miss in the suburbs.

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7 minutes ago, ijuin said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Interesting. So in US, parents are not expected to be responsible. (It's probably right, you shouldn't expect so much ...)

AFAIK parents are only responsible in cases where they are expected to be present or aware of the child's action. If the kid receives alcohol in the parents' presence, or the parent is complicit in providing the alcohol, then the parent shares liability. If the kid goes off and gets alcohol in a manner in which the parents can not reasonably be expected to know about, then at worst the parents are liable simply for not knowing what their kid is up to.

I was specifically responding to the "parents give kid wine" part.

2 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Interesting. So in US, parents are not expected to be responsible. (It's probably right, you shouldn't expect so much ...)

People can't seem to teach their dogs to behave in public at a high enough rate, why should they do any better with their kids?

I would assume most kids are smarter than dogs ... although, would that make them easier to teach or harder?

3 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:
Quote

Putting aside your age, what about designated drivers?

Eh, on campus most students walk or take the bus.  They deliberately make it very expensive to have a car, otherwise they'd need about ten times the land just for everyone to park.  Campus has a large number of bus routes, excellent bike paths, and plenty of sidewalks and paths.  It's one of the things I really miss in the suburbs.

... there are pubs in campus?

I didn't took the "college town" literally before. Maybe I should've.

Note that the bus routes makes much more sense than everybody driving car anyway. It's just that in US it seems unusual.

 

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11 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... there are pubs in campus?

I didn't took the "college town" literally before. Maybe I should've.

Note that the bus routes makes much more sense than everybody driving car anyway. It's just that in US it seems unusual.

 

On, or close enough to be an easy walk.  I was more thinking of restaurants that also serve alcohol, rather than bars whose main purpose is alcohol, but the bars are very close to campus, and some of the restaurants are within campustown.

Basically, the university is in between two cities, part in one, part in the other.  The main university campus and the immediate surroundings are campustown, but busses and bike routes or lanes spread out into both cities, too.  The whole twin city feels the presence of the university, both as a major employer and as the source for lots of student customers (and their families on certain weekends).  Certain areas, like one of the downtowns, tend to have several bars that students frequent.

People who are underage are allowed in, but not suppose to drink, or at least that was the case when my parents took me to hear irish music in the bars around St Patrick's Day.

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24 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Interesting. So in US, parents are not expected to be responsible. (It's probably right, you shouldn't expect so much ...)

People can't seem to teach their dogs to behave in public at a high enough rate, why should they do any better with their kids?

When I was 4 (way back in '83) my mom took me to watch dad play baseball. Afterwards there was a post game party with lots of booze and I ended up drinking from several of my dad's team mates rye and coke glasses. I would imagine that if something like that happened nowadays, there'd be a load of trouble.

 

According to my parents though, I slept well that night.

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3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

That has never made sense to me, any more than Victorian worries about seeing naked ankles.

There has been this persistent myth that keeping kids ignorant and uptight about sex will prevent them from actually having sex, I have no idea why it remains strong in the face of so much contrary evidence--maybe parents just like to keep their heads in the sand?

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Traditionally in America, parents stumble on the lessons of reproductions and sexuality. Then the kids end up learning it from internet videos and an unending series of mistakes.

No one seems to like the idea of parents having honest discussions about human sexuality with their children throughout childhood and adolescence.

I suspect that a contributing factor is that most adults know they do not actually know all the details of the various subjects related to sex.

If a kid asks the parent about the Panama Canal, most parents wouldn't know much about the subject.  But they would be willing to help the kid look it up online, open an encyclopedia, or take the kid to the local library.  Why does it need to be different when the subject is HIV, hygiene, menstruation, or grandpa's enlarged prostate?

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As I mentioned, I think that some people believe that they have an interest in keeping the kids ignorant, as if The Magical Shield of Ignorance would keep the kids from having sex or engaging in risky sexual-related behavior. Maybe it's sort of like, if the kid is allowed to see a picture of the opposite sex nude, then they would want to see the real thing all the more?

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18 hours ago, ijuin said:
21 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

That has never made sense to me, any more than Victorian worries about seeing naked ankles.

There has been this persistent myth that keeping kids ignorant and uptight about sex will prevent them from actually having sex, I have no idea why it remains strong in the face of so much contrary evidence--maybe parents just like to keep their heads in the sand?

It may be related to not believing in evolution. Because if you believe in Bible, sex is some "supplemental" idea and people needs to know about it (unlike animals, apparently), whereas if you DO believe in evolution, you would have nice example of hundred of thousand generations of people who all figured out how to have sex while the ones who didn't died out. Sure, some might be told. "Oook ook oooook".

I think that assuming people won't have sex unless told about it is similar to assuming people won't eat unless told about it.

17 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

If a kid asks the parent about the Panama Canal, most parents wouldn't know much about the subject.  But they would be willing to help the kid look it up online, open an encyclopedia, or take the kid to the local library.

That was bad idea to look up.

Uh ... so, maybe the problem is that most parents are not aware of any encyclopedia which would explain it correctly?

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10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It may be related to not believing in evolution. Because if you believe in Bible, sex is some "supplemental" idea and people needs to know about it (unlike animals, apparently), whereas if you DO believe in evolution, you would have nice example of hundred of thousand generations of people who all figured out how to have sex while the ones who didn't died out. Sure, some might be told. "Oook ook oooook".

I think that assuming people won't have sex unless told about it is similar to assuming people won't eat unless told about it.

That was bad idea to look up.

Uh ... so, maybe the problem is that most parents are not aware of any encyclopedia which would explain it correctly?

I think it's more likely parents who aren't ready for their kids to grow up.  Sex is an adult thing not a kid-thing.

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25 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I think that assuming people won't have sex unless told about it is similar to assuming people won't eat unless told about it.

Thinking about it more, maybe we should hold a competition. Sort of race. Kid who was never fed in other way than by breastfeeding in room with various items including food (fruit and so) and pair of teenagers who never heard about sex in room without videogames. Who will get it first?

16 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I think it's more likely parents who aren't ready for their kids to grow up.  Sex is an adult thing not a kid-thing.

Hmmm ... that may be an issue. Parents are not ready for their kid to turn 9 when it already finishes college wouldn't surprise me much.

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4 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Hmmm ... that may be an issue. Parents are not ready for their kid to turn 9 when it already finishes college wouldn't surprise me much.

Kids who start having sex too young also often end up jaded and emotionally numb.

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18 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
28 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Hmmm ... that may be an issue. Parents are not ready for their kid to turn 9 when it already finishes college wouldn't surprise me much.

Kids who start having sex too young also often end up jaded and emotionally numb.

How young is too young? Was it a serious issue for Homo erectus? Is this the reason Neanderthal went extinct?

(Sorry but I find hard to believe something like this ... unless it's related to sexual abuse.)

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

That was bad idea to look up.

Uh ... so, maybe the problem is that most parents are not aware of any encyclopedia which would explain it correctly?

I can only hope that parents do not encourage children to use the Urban Dictionary a primary reference source.

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2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

How young is too young? Was it a serious issue for Homo erectus? Is this the reason Neanderthal went extinct?

I know it was a rhetorical question, but my answer is sort in context:
No, Neanderthal were simple out breed by "modern" humans.  That and interbreeding with Homo sapiens.  About 1-2% of European DNA is Neanderthal and a like amount of Denisovans farther east.  So, yeah, that sort of was the reason.

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8 hours ago, hkmaly said:

How young is too young? Was it a serious issue for Homo erectus?

I would think it would have been a much more serious issue for homo flaccus. Possibly even the reason that no trace of them has ever been found.

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9 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Kids who start having sex too young also often end up jaded and emotionally numb.

And yet parents seem to think that keeping the kids ignorant is a viable method for preventing them from having sex.

Imagine if we took that same attitude with teaching kids about fire: "Oh, no, we won't tell you anything about that bright hot glowing stuff--we'll just trust that you won't touch it and get burned, even though we've deliberately kept you from knowing that you could get burned by it, or even what 'burned' means."

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15 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Thinking about it more, maybe we should hold a competition. Sort of race. Kid who was never fed in other way than by breastfeeding in room with various items including food (fruit and so) and pair of teenagers who never heard about sex in room without videogames. Who will get it first?

The kid who was never fed will get there first.

The teenagers who've never heard of sex will tie with the pegasi who've never heard of flying.

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