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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

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NP: Friday February 24, 2017

93 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, ijuin said:

And yet parents seem to think that keeping the kids ignorant is a viable method for preventing them from having sex.

Imagine if we took that same attitude with teaching kids about fire: "Oh, no, we won't tell you anything about that bright hot glowing stuff--we'll just trust that you won't touch it and get burned, even though we've deliberately kept you from knowing that you could get burned by it, or even what 'burned' means."

I'm not staying the attitude is rational.  Just that there is a reason.

How do you educate about sex without implying permission to out and do it?  How do you tell them "That's HOT.  Don't touch it!  You could get burned!"   Maybe parenting classes should follow sex-ed classes.

Exposure to sex at too young an age is emotionally damaging.  How best to let kids be kids when they are maturing at younger and younger ages?

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20 hours ago, mlooney said:
23 hours ago, hkmaly said:

How young is too young? Was it a serious issue for Homo erectus? Is this the reason Neanderthal went extinct?

I know it was a rhetorical question, but my answer is sort in context:
No, Neanderthal were simple out breed by "modern" humans.  That and interbreeding with Homo sapiens.  About 1-2% of European DNA is Neanderthal and a like amount of Denisovans farther east.  So, yeah, that sort of was the reason.

... you mean modern humans having sex sooner was sort of reason Neanderthal went extinct? Hmmm ... that should make having sex sooner GOOD idea.

7 hours ago, Don Edwards said:
23 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Thinking about it more, maybe we should hold a competition. Sort of race. Kid who was never fed in other way than by breastfeeding in room with various items including food (fruit and so) and pair of teenagers who never heard about sex in room without videogames. Who will get it first?

The kid who was never fed will get there first.

The teenagers who've never heard of sex will tie with the pegasi who've never heard of flying.

... took a while to realize what you mean. Remember, there are griffins on other half of EGS universe, there may be pegasi as well, and most birds are taught how to fly by mother. Meanwhile, finding teenagers who never heard of sex will be challenge even when searching multiple dimensions.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

How do you educate about sex without implying permission to out and do it?  How do you tell them "That's HOT.  Don't touch it!  You could get burned!"   Maybe parenting classes should follow sex-ed classes.

That may help. Make it boring enough and they may not try.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Exposure to sex at too young an age is emotionally damaging.

I'm still waiting for source of this claim. Sure, exposure to sex at age 4 will be damaging, but after puberty?

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

How best to let kids be kids when they are maturing at younger and younger ages?

Isn't there quite a lot kids who refuse to leave parent's basement even after age of 30? How is that "maturing at younger and younger ages"?

Maybe it would be better to protect kids from the actual danger of pregnancy (and STDs) and not care so much about sex itself.

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8 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

That may help. Make it boring enough and they may not try.

I was thinking more of the consequences of an unexpected pregnancy on a kid's present and future, but whatever works...

9 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Isn't there quite a lot kids who refuse to leave parent's basement even after age of 30? How is that "maturing at younger and younger ages"?

Physical maturity, not emotional maturity.

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2 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
13 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

That may help. Make it boring enough and they may not try.

I was thinking more of the consequences of an unexpected pregnancy on a kid's present and future, but whatever works...

Well, first step of that road is to accept the kids will have sex sooner than they will be ready for pregnancy. Only then you can start making sure the kids won't end up being pregnant without being ready for it.

4 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
14 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Isn't there quite a lot kids who refuse to leave parent's basement even after age of 30? How is that "maturing at younger and younger ages"?

Physical maturity, not emotional maturity.

Interesting. Most people are postponing having kids and those kids reach physical maturity sooner ... maybe nature is trying to tell us something?

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45 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Well, first step of that road is to accept the kids will have sex sooner than they will be ready for pregnancy. Only then you can start making sure the kids won't end up being pregnant without being ready for it.

More easily said than done in some cases...

46 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Interesting. Most people are postponing having kids and those kids reach physical maturity sooner ... maybe nature is trying to tell us something?

"Superior nutrition and disease control means you can get busy sooner"...

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10 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
57 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Well, first step of that road is to accept the kids will have sex sooner than they will be ready for pregnancy. Only then you can start making sure the kids won't end up being pregnant without being ready for it.

More easily said than done in some cases...

We are not developing completely reliable solution, we are just trying to make something better than current situation ...

10 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
57 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Interesting. Most people are postponing having kids and those kids reach physical maturity sooner ... maybe nature is trying to tell us something?

"Superior nutrition and disease control means you can get busy sooner"...

"There are not enough blood relatives around you. You should work on fixing that."

also possibly

"You are overweight. Obviously, you have enough food for more people. Make those people and share."

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6 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

How do you educate about sex without implying permission to out and do it? 

By teaching them about the consequences, and giving them a sense of self-worth so that they'll believe they have a future worth protecting.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Meanwhile, finding teenagers who never heard of sex will be challenge even when searching multiple dimensions.

Anyone else flashing back to Blue Lagoon?

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

you mean modern humans having sex sooner was sort of reason Neanderthal went extinct?

Soon and more often is one of the current theories.

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39 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:
7 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

How do you educate about sex without implying permission to out and do it? 

By teaching them about the consequences, and giving them a sense of self-worth so that they'll believe they have a future worth protecting.

Note: it's important that THEY believe they have a future worth protecting. Things YOU might consider worth protecting might not be things THEY consider worth protecting.

40 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Meanwhile, finding teenagers who never heard of sex will be challenge even when searching multiple dimensions.

Anyone else flashing back to Blue Lagoon?

Yes, that may be one of the few examples.

Although, is that realistic? Could an island with enough food to keep two people alive for years really NOT be visited all those years?

28 minutes ago, mlooney said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

you mean modern humans having sex sooner was sort of reason Neanderthal went extinct?

Soon and more often is one of the current theories.

I would assume "more often" being much more important than "soon". Although ... what was the mortality rate for woman giving birth back then?

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16 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Although ... what was the mortality rate for woman giving birth back then?

I'm sure depressingly high

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56 minutes ago, mlooney said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Although ... what was the mortality rate for woman giving birth back then?

I'm sure depressingly high

Naaah ... depressions appeared only few centuries ago. Ok, few millenias.

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17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Note: it's important that THEY believe they have a future worth protecting. Things YOU might consider worth protecting might not be things THEY consider worth protecting.

...and there's the disconnect right there.

Adults can know with a reasonable degree of certainty what will be important to their kids when they're adults.  But not what's important to them when they're kids.  The only thing lamer than adults preaching about "the future" or the "I remember when I was your age..." speech is adults trying to act like cool kids.  I'll go with "teach the consequences to actions", Alex.  Kind of what I was getting at with bookending sex ed with parenting classes.  making the point "this is what your life will consist of if you make a baby..." 

To the boys special emphasis on how they are frozen out of the decision of whether to have or abort any baby that might get conceived.  Their control over their lives starts and ends with the decision to have sex.  Then push on to how their lives would be forever entangled with the girl's, consequences to their freedom, standard of living, child support...

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I know for a fact that kids can think about the future and the effect their actions here-and-now could have on it.  I knew I wanted to be a veterinarian since I was quite small, and I recall times in high school especially when I thought, "I can't do that, it might lead to X and then X might keep me from going to vet school."  Don't do drugs, if you get caught and have a felony they won't let you prescribe controlled substances.  Don't risk getting pregnant, then you wouldn't have the time or money, or at least it would be a whole lot harder.  There'll be time for all that later.  (Sex and pregnancy and kids, that is, not the drugs ;-)  Even wanting to get good grades, from grade school on, so that I could get into college and then vet school.  In undergrad, I joined a Tae Kwon Do club partly because a friend was, but also because I knew my resume could use something athletic.  I became the president of the Double-Barrelled Tiger Cubs because it would give me some leadership experience on my application.  (I just called it the Sherlock Holmes club there, but the name is a great inside joke.)

So yes, kids can make the right decisions if they understand the possible consequences of their actions and they can see a bright future for themselves that is worth avoiding the risk for.  If I'd grown up in a slum with no exposure to women in science and medicine, few proper books, and an environment that said I would end up on welfare, who knows if I'd have even thought of trying for vet school?  A kid like that would have a very tough time believing in a bright future.  A few manage it, but they've got so many obstacles, and so much focus on those obstacles, that it's hard to give kids the belief in themselves that will help them overcome it all.

My dad was a math professor, and he used to show his catch-up math class the movie Stand and Deliver, about the true-life story of a class of students in one of LA's poorest schools, who managed to get passing grades on the AP Calculus test.  According to Wiki, in 1987, 27% of all Mexican-Americans who scored 3 or higher (out of 5) on the AP Calculus test went to that school.  When the test administrators challenged the results, and claimed they must have cheated, the students wound up taking a second AP Calculus exam, months after their last class and on one day's notice, and the same students all passed again.  (Many with a lower score, and their teacher fought to get their original scores reinstated!)  Those kids saw themselves waiting tables and raising babies until someone proved that they could learn and achieve, and reach for college and beyond.

So yes, kids can make good choices, provided they can believe in the results.  Teaching them the second part is often the hardest.

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4 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I know for a fact that kids can think about the future and the effect their actions here-and-now could have on it.  I knew I wanted to be a veterinarian since I was quite small, and I recall times in high school especially when I thought, "I can't do that, it might lead to X and then X might keep me from going to vet school."  Don't do drugs, if you get caught and have a felony they won't let you prescribe controlled substances.  Don't risk getting pregnant, then you wouldn't have the time or money, or at least it would be a whole lot harder.  There'll be time for all that later.  (Sex and pregnancy and kids, that is, not the drugs ;-)  Even wanting to get good grades, from grade school on, so that I could get into college and then vet school.  In undergrad, I joined a Tae Kwon Do club partly because a friend was, but also because I knew my resume could use something athletic.  I became the president of the Double-Barrelled Tiger Cubs because it would give me some leadership experience on my application.  (I just called it the Sherlock Holmes club there, but the name is a great inside joke.)

I don't think majority of kids are that determined and that focused. I know I wasn't. On the other hand, I always planed to get on university to avoid the stupid people around (especially the ones who made fun of me) as much as possible.

(Obviously, I didn't understand politics back then.)

4 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Those kids saw themselves waiting tables and raising babies until someone proved that they could learn and achieve, and reach for college and beyond.

So yes, kids can make good choices, provided they can believe in the results.  Teaching them the second part is often the hardest.

You can't just "teach" someone to believe. That's why it's so hard. But, yes, it's also only option: if those kids won't see any reason to make effort, they won't.

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13 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think majority of kids are that determined and that focused. I know I wasn't. On the other hand, I always planed to get on university to avoid the stupid people around (especially the ones who made fun of me) as much as possible.

And getting to college is also a goal which would lead to the same sorts of decisions.  And I think it's more that too many kide don't believe in their own futures enough to dream big.  I had other things I wanted to be, like an astronaut or a dolphin trainer, both of which require college, or a professional writer, which requires a good command of the English language and familiarity with your chosen genre(s).

There are plenty of these kids who are that determined and that focused, but they put it into attempts to become professional athletes, because they feel like they can't succeed in school well enough to do anything else likely to be seen as a success.  In truth, for one example, there are more black members of the professional organization of Cardiologists than there are black members of the NBA, let alone doctors in general and all the other specialties.  They just don't get splashed all over television every week as role models, or rallied around under the "Friday night lights" at their high school.

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9 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
23 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think majority of kids are that determined and that focused. I know I wasn't. On the other hand, I always planed to get on university to avoid the stupid people around (especially the ones who made fun of me) as much as possible.

And getting to college is also a goal which would lead to the same sorts of decisions.  And I think it's more that too many kide don't believe in their own futures enough to dream big.  I had other things I wanted to be, like an astronaut or a dolphin trainer, both of which require college, or a professional writer, which requires a good command of the English language and familiarity with your chosen genre(s).

Oh, yes, I also wanted to be astronaut. But even as an child I wasn't naive enough to believe we reach starship level technology soon enough for me to actually get to one.

I also wanted to be secret agent. I can neither confirm nor deny how well it went with that one dream :)

(Note: It wasn't one or other. I wanted to be secret agent infiltrating orbital facilities in other star systems. Although, "secret" ... James Bond kind of secret, if I remember correctly. Which brings me to the topic of never believing to have the necessary physical abilities without cyberware ... not that there was that much books about cyberware when I was young. The term cyberware is probably younger, at least.)

10 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

There are plenty of these kids who are that determined and that focused, but they put it into attempts to become professional athletes, because they feel like they can't succeed in school well enough to do anything else likely to be seen as a success.  In truth, for one example, there are more black members of the professional organization of Cardiologists than there are black members of the NBA, let alone doctors in general and all the other specialties.  They just don't get splashed all over television every week as role models, or rallied around under the "Friday night lights" at their high school.

I find likely that lot of kids, no matter their color, simply don't see being Cardiologist as success, reachable or not. At least not compared to professional athletes. Which is sad. Working in entertainment (and close fields like athletics and politics) is overrated.

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Cardologists make pretty good money for non-management types, and they save people's lives, but what a lot of folks want is fame--to have crowds of cheering fans and to know that the world as a whole loves them.

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21 hours ago, ijuin said:

Cardologists make pretty good money for non-management types, and they save people's lives, but what a lot of folks want is fame--to have crowds of cheering fans and to know that the world as a whole loves them.

I agree that compared to cardiologists, management is overpaid.

Those famous people ... well, you need to be really good AND have lot of luck to actually get famous enough to be paid well for it. There is only so much positions available. Case in point, Dan definitely doesn't seem to get rich on EGS, and look how good it is.

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On 3/3/2017 at 6:24 PM, hkmaly said:

Oh, yes, I also wanted to be astronaut. But even as an child I wasn't naive enough to believe we reach starship level technology soon enough for me to actually get to one.

Oh, I meant being an actual astronaut, on the space shuttle or space station, not in a fictional reality.  (Not that I'd have said no to being Medical Officer on a starship, it just wasn't an actual career aspiration.)

Quote

(Note: It wasn't one or other. I wanted to be secret agent infiltrating orbital facilities in other star systems.

Ah, yes, there was a poster of a veterinarian astronaut in the hallway of the building I took physics in.  Definitely would have liked to combine two there.

Quote

I find likely that lot of kids, no matter their color, simply don't see being Cardiologist as success, reachable or not. At least not compared to professional athletes. Which is sad. Working in entertainment (and close fields like athletics and politics) is overrated.

That's still part of the perception problem, I think.  Kids don't seen themselves as having a chance at any sort of success besides sports or acting, maybe a couple of other things.

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13 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

That's still part of the perception problem, I think.  Kids don't seen themselves as having a chance at any sort of success besides sports or acting, maybe a couple of other things.

Or possibly that they confuse "success" with "fame", believing that being successful means having the general public be aware of your accomplishments. Publishing research papers that only get read by people within your specialty, or contributing to any project that doesn't gain you name recognition, apparently doesn't count as "success" under such a mindset. You could discover a vaccine that saves thousands of lives every year, and still not be "successful" if everybody outside of MegaPharmaCorp only knows that it's a MegaPharmaCorp product and don't know that it was you who discovered it.

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13 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

That's still part of the perception problem, I think.  Kids don't seen themselves as having a chance at any sort of success besides sports or acting, maybe a couple of other things.

Book recommendation: "Life at the Bottom" by Theodore Dalrymple. Available in all common ebook formats, and if I could find how/where I got the epub for free I'd provide a link.

People have tried to portray Dalrymple as all sorts of racist for what he says about the underclass. Obviously he hates African-Americans, from what he says about them... sorry, he says approximately nothing about them; his focus is on ghetto whites in England, because he's an English doctor in England where the ghettos are predominantly white. As a doctor working in ghetto hospitals he's talked to a huge number of those ghetto-dwellers; he's walked the ghetto streets; he's talked to the social workers who administer government aid programs that are a major source of ghetto income.

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18 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
On 03/04/2017 at 1:24 AM, hkmaly said:

Oh, yes, I also wanted to be astronaut. But even as an child I wasn't naive enough to believe we reach starship level technology soon enough for me to actually get to one.

Oh, I meant being an actual astronaut, on the space shuttle or space station, not in a fictional reality.  (Not that I'd have said no to being Medical Officer on a starship, it just wasn't an actual career aspiration.)

Oh, I wanted to be starship astronaut (or starship pilot) in our reality. Sadly, such career was not available, due to mentioned unsatisfactory state of starship development. Too big dream, I guess. :)

Of course, I was an astronaut in several fictional realities as well, but it's not the same ... also, it's not considered career. Or at least it wasn't considered career back then - nowadays, there are several computer games with professional players, although closest to being astronaut is probably StarCraft and that's still pretty far. (Unless there are professional players in Eve Online. Never played it, it appeared too late for me.)

5 hours ago, ijuin said:
18 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

That's still part of the perception problem, I think.  Kids don't seen themselves as having a chance at any sort of success besides sports or acting, maybe a couple of other things.

Or possibly that they confuse "success" with "fame", believing that being successful means having the general public be aware of your accomplishments. Publishing research papers that only get read by people within your specialty, or contributing to any project that doesn't gain you name recognition, apparently doesn't count as "success" under such a mindset. You could discover a vaccine that saves thousands of lives every year, and still not be "successful" if everybody outside of MegaPharmaCorp only knows that it's a MegaPharmaCorp product and don't know that it was you who discovered it.

Exactly what I meant.

It's even worse considering most of those "successes" - like those vaccines - are team work and you can't really say single person did it.

Note that while it work very similar in team sports, commentators pretend it doesn't and are talking about how many goals (or baskets or whatever) that single person gave although even person who never gave single goal can be very useful for team.

 

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Expanding on a couple points here and adding my two cents, what makes a career "successful" is a subjective metric. Some people consider a successful career to be one with a lot of income. Others focus on fame and admiration. Impact and chances to improve the lives of others is another common metric. I personally use a quality of life metric (is the job covering my financial obligations and do I enjoy the work.)

Children are more often going to gravitate towards the fame and admiration metric (or a separate "awesomeness" metric) as that's a concept that they'll know and many consider important. A lot of children don't have a firm grasp on the value of money (certainly they know you buy things with money, but they don't quite grasp the work and effort that goes into getting money.) Also, many children don't have a developed enough sense of empathy (or a concept of legacy) for the impact metric to out-weigh the fame metric in importance.

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"Awesomeness" would cover being an astronaut, dolphin trainer, or veterinarian!  :-D

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