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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
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Scotty

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NP: Monday March 27, 2017

107 posts in this topic

44 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

They had the problem that in order to survive on Earth they either needed pressurised vehicles, breathing masks or habitation domes. They figured that by destroying Earth industry so we couldn't efficiently counterattack, they could solve the rest of the problem by altering the atmosphere to suit them. Since humans couldn't survive longer than a few minutes in their atmosphere, they were fairly sure it would have worked. (I cannot remember for certain but they also preferred a temperature of around 40 degrees Celsius/100 degrees Fahrenheit.) Though in theory the surviving humans could have created habitats of their own as well as breathing masks that worked the other way, so the aliens might have been overconfident. Instead they lost the war by being overconfident in a different area.

No worse then battlefield earth with the aliens atmosphere igniting when it comes into contact with radiation, that is kind of all over the place.

EDIT : why am I tinking of this for your description : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tripods

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18 hours ago, Scotty said:
19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Extra terrestrials would probably not understand our politics anyway. Or they may fail to distinguish between real politics, Galactic Senate on Coruscant, Imperial Court of Padishah Emperors and Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.

I would expect they would be able to recognize the fact that there are hostilities between several countries and even civil unrest, and if they've been watching us for some time, they should have a decent idea about the geopolitical landscape.

Remember: they wouldn't be able to watch what is actually happening - not in usable resolution at least. They will only have the broadcasts, and likely in bad quality, full of noise and/or errors. They may have like 10 minutes of something and lack the part before which could hint that it's fiction and/or history. And then another 10 minutes from something else. And another ...

Of course that's more than enough to recognize there are (or recently were) hostilities between several countries, but may not be enough to get list of those countries or to put the geopolitical map together.

16 hours ago, ijuin said:

As for reasons for aliens to want to dominate us, perhaps they have an ideology of Manifest Destiny, whereby they see themselves as the rightful current or future rulers of this region of space (or the whole galaxy, or the whole cosmos). They may also have a paternalistic view that they are "enlightening" us or "helping" us by taking control (similar to European attempts to Christianize and "civilize" the rest of the world), and not merely glorifying their own empire.

I would count all of that as "boosting ego".

16 hours ago, ijuin said:

or they might think that Earth is a nice piece of real estate that they would like to own for themselves.

With the amount of carbon dioxide in atmosphere and all those landfills and ... unless they like that, of course ...

6 hours ago, Sjmcc13 said:
7 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Though in theory the surviving humans could have created habitats of their own as well as breathing masks that worked the other way, so the aliens might have been overconfident. Instead they lost the war by being overconfident in a different area.

why am I tinking of this for your description : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tripods

Considering the deadly disadvantage of "...completely incapable of lying, finding it difficult to tell the difference between a novel and a biography. As such they are extremely gullible, taking everything told to them as indisputable truth." I'm surprised they took so long.

 

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

With the amount of carbon dioxide in atmosphere and all those landfills and ... unless they like that, of course ...

Aliens would have to already be interested in something approximating our planet's chemistry and temperature or they'd just move on and leave us alone.

Whatever humans may have done to the Earth, it ought to be trivial for aliens who want to make Earth their home.  A little CO2 here, some landfills there...Nothing compared to terraforming Venus or Mars.

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Then again, there is almost nothing that humans can do with Gold that can not be done with other metals.  And yet many humans are quite susceptible to gold fever whenever an opportunity to obtain the seventy-ninth element is perceived.

Maybe the invading aliens are just that way about certain types of planets?

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10 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Then again, there is almost nothing that humans can do with Gold that can not be done with other metals.  And yet many humans are quite susceptible to gold fever whenever an opportunity to obtain the seventy-ninth element is perceived.

Maybe the invading aliens are just that way about certain types of planets?

They are absolutely desperate for issues of Action Comics #1, which are usable as currency on their home planet. Therefore they invade the Earth to steal our comic collections.

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53 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

With the amount of carbon dioxide in atmosphere and all those landfills and ... unless they like that, of course ...

Aliens would have to already be interested in something approximating our planet's chemistry and temperature or they'd just move on and leave us alone.

Whatever humans may have done to the Earth, it ought to be trivial for aliens who want to make Earth their home.  A little CO2 here, some landfills there...Nothing compared to terraforming Venus or Mars.

Venus and Mars are unlikely to be their only other alternatives. And terraforming Earth AFTER we fire our nuclear weapons might easily take longer than Mars.

26 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Then again, there is almost nothing that humans can do with Gold that can not be done with other metals.  And yet many humans are quite susceptible to gold fever whenever an opportunity to obtain the seventy-ninth element is perceived.

Let's see ... gold is one of the least reactive chemical elements, resistant to most acids. It's extremely malleable, you can make very thin wire from it. In fact, you can make so thin leaf from it it's semi-transparent. It's also third most conductive metal (after silver and copper, and copper corrodes).

Even if we didn't like it, it would still has many uses in electronics.

14 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

They are absolutely desperate for issues of Action Comics #1, which are usable as currency on their home planet. Therefore they invade the Earth to steal our comic collections.

I'm pretty sure species (or nation) which is unable to realize that information can be copied for free can't be advanced enough to leave orbit of their home planet.

Take US for example: It wasn't able to send astronaut to Moon since prolonging the copyright from 28 years to 50 years after author death.

 

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5 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I'm pretty sure species which is unable to realize that information can be copied for free can't be advanced enough to leave orbit of their home planet.

If they have counterfeiting laws even nearly as strict as those we have in Denmark, copied issues of Action Comics #1 would be no good. They would just land the forgers in jail. Either you present the cashier with the actual comic or you can go look for groceries elsewhere.

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5 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
12 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I'm pretty sure species which is unable to realize that information can be copied for free can't be advanced enough to leave orbit of their home planet.

If they have counterfeiting laws even nearly as strict as those we have in Denmark, copied issues of Action Comics #1 would be no good. They would just land the forgers in jail. Either you present the cashier with the actual comic or you can go look for groceries elsewhere.

... how many astronauts did Denmark got on Moon? :)

(It's true that counterfeiting laws makes more sense than disallowing copying completely. On the other hand ... how exactly would ANY original of Earth's comic got on different planet before the invasion?)

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11 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

how exactly would ANY original of Earth's comic got on different planet before the invasion?

They send a few teenagers to make crop circles, tip cattle, and go joyriding with whatever poor schlubs with no witnesses they can find.  While the conspiracy theorists are busy with all that, they go to the conspiracy theorists' mothers' homes and convince them they should throw out any boxes that haven't been opened in over a year.  Then they just pick up the boxes that contain the conspiracy theorists' comic book collections.

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16 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Venus and Mars are unlikely to be their only other alternatives. And terraforming Earth AFTER we fire our nuclear weapons might easily take longer than Mars.

What would take a long time about terraforming the Earth after a nuclear exchange?  Fallout will clear from the atmosphere pretty fast, slower from the water supply and will need to be removed from soil, but there ought to be plenty of usable space that is minimally affected.  The Earth is not going to be irradiated equally.  Not unless we pull a "scorched Earth" move where we make a point of rendering the planet as close to uninhabitable as is possible.  Even then the Earth will have its soil, atmosphere, water, and magnetic field.  It would just need a really large hazmat cleanup.

Invading and taking the earth requires one set of capabilities.  Towing iceballs around and dropping them onto dead world to make them habitable requires a different set which takes a lot more energy to accomplish.  Any alien race that can terraform mars can arrange a rain or asteroids on Earth before they ever show themselves.

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There's also the matter that planets that are even marginally habitable are somewhat rare as compared to lifeless worlds that require bioforming "from scratch". For any species that likes climates at all similar to Earth's, gaining possession of our planet would probably be worth the cost that it would take to get rid of us.

On the other hand, the aliens may not even want our planet and may simply want to kill us pre-emptively before we can become a threat to them.

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48 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

how exactly would ANY original of Earth's comic got on different planet before the invasion?

They send a few teenagers to make crop circles, tip cattle, and go joyriding with whatever poor schlubs with no witnesses they can find.  While the conspiracy theorists are busy with all that, they go to the conspiracy theorists' mothers' homes and convince them they should throw out any boxes that haven't been opened in over a year.  Then they just pick up the boxes that contain the conspiracy theorists' comic book collections.

That sound like good strategy. In fact, it sounds like so good strategy they don't need invasion.

48 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

What would take a long time about terraforming the Earth after a nuclear exchange?

The radiation to stop being radioactive. What, you want to lift all that to orbit and transfer somewhere else?

49 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

The Earth is not going to be irradiated equally. Not unless we pull a "scorched Earth" move where we make a point of rendering the planet as close to uninhabitable as is possible.

IMHO even the "standard" nuclear war will irradiate most of Earth.

51 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Even then the Earth will have its soil, atmosphere, water, and magnetic field.

It will still have magnetic field, that's true.

52 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Invading and taking the earth requires one set of capabilities.  Towing iceballs around and dropping them onto dead world to make them habitable requires a different set which takes a lot more energy to accomplish.  Any alien race that can terraform mars can arrange a rain or asteroids on Earth before they ever show themselves.

It might actually be good strategy to send the asteroids both to Mars and Earth. First, it will create diversion. Second, why not start both terraforming projects at same time?

And, actually, for someone capable of moving between stars, sending few asteroids might look much simpler than landing and starting invasion. It might even require less energy if they plan to return the invasion force to orbit eventually.

 

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The wisdom of bombardment depends on how much of the native biosphere the aliens want to keep intact. If they are fine with eradicating all of the native life, then bombs away! If, on the other hand, they want our wildlife and vegetation and livestock and just want to get rid of the humans, then an engineered plague would be a better weapon--something that can spread through the air like influenza, but against which we have no natural immunity.

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5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Remember: they wouldn't be able to watch what is actually happening - not in usable resolution at least. They will only have the broadcasts, and likely in bad quality, full of noise and/or errors. They may have like 10 minutes of something and lack the part before which could hint that it's fiction and/or history. And then another 10 minutes from something else. And another ...

Of course that's more than enough to recognize there are (or recently were) hostilities between several countries, but may not be enough to get list of those countries or to put the geopolitical map together.

That's assuming they haven't been watching from somewhere nearby for the past couple decades.

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3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

(It's true that counterfeiting laws makes more sense than disallowing copying completely. On the other hand ... how exactly would ANY original of Earth's comic got on different planet before the invasion?)

Well duh. The Uryuom flew them out and shared them.

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On Windy City Live, Neil deGrasse Tyson just solved the whole conundrum.  "Maybe aliens did come and visit Earth, but they just happened to accidentally show up during San Diego ComicCon."

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8 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

On Windy City Live, Neil deGrasse Tyson just solved the whole conundrum.  "Maybe aliens did come and visit Earth, but they just happened to accidentally show up during San Diego ComicCon."

That would make it easy for aliens to blend in.

Alien commander: What do you have to report on the natives, scout?

Scout: I apparently won first place in something called a cosplay competition, sir.

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2 hours ago, Scotty said:

That would make it easy for aliens to blend in.

Alien commander: What do you have to report on the natives, scout?

Scout: I apparently won first place in something called a cosplay competition, sir.

Other Scout: "I think we are too late, sir. There is already a heavy Klingon presence here and they seem quite congenial with the natives."

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5 hours ago, Scotty said:

That would make it easy for aliens to blend in.

Alien commander: What do you have to report on the natives, scout?

Scout: I apparently won first place in something called a cosplay competition, sir.

 

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Other Scout: "I think we are too late, sir. There is already a heavy Klingon presence here and they seem quite congenial with the natives."

3rd scout.  Seems that the Empire has sent a large number of Storm Troopers as well.

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17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

The radiation to stop being radioactive. What, you want to lift all that to orbit and transfer somewhere else?

That's awfully wasteful.  Bury it.  Nevada has salt mines perfect for this.  You could almost just make a big pile out in the Sahara desert and cover it with a really big tarp.

Aliens with the ability to move an invasion force across space might have other technological advantages that would be capable of sorting the radioactives out of the soil.

17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

IMHO even the "standard" nuclear war will irradiate most of Earth.

The War Games clip was just a visual aid, right?  You weren't trying to use it as proof, right?

The Hollywood-standard,nuclear war has the entire earth uninhabitable because it's convenient plot point.  The hero gets to save the world. 

In the real world, nuclear explosions are going to be clustered around enemy population centers and enemy military assets.  Some fallout will get into the air and water and soil but most of the high radioactivity will be concentrated at the blast sites.

17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It might actually be good strategy to send the asteroids both to Mars and Earth. First, it will create diversion. Second, why not start both terraforming projects at same time?

Impacts on Mars and Earth might seem too coincidental. 

Dropping anything on Mars depends on the habitability of Mars to begin with.  Bad things happen to humans who are in microgravity for too long.  We don't know how much gravity we need to be long-term healthy or if Mars has enough.  Aliens would likely have similar issues with mars.  Given that many "earthlike" exoplanets we've found are larger than our earth, the problem could be more acute for them than us.

17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And, actually, for someone capable of moving between stars, sending few asteroids might look much simpler than landing and starting invasion. It might even require less energy if they plan to return the invasion force to orbit eventually.\

If the aliens have done their homework, they would know that a few impacts in the right places could destroy the human's food supply and get them fighting among themselves.  Or that a few nuclear-grade energy bursts in our upper-atmosphere will create EMP bursts that will cripple most of our our technology.  The finishing touch would be destroying every satellite in geosynchronous orbit. 

The single largest question is patience on the part of the aliens.  The more time they can allow for pre-invasion actions against Earth, especially actions before we know they are even there, the more problems they can make for us before committing to a military invasion.  This is Sun Tzu stuff.  Don't engage the enemy until he has already lost.

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20 hours ago, ijuin said:

The wisdom of bombardment depends on how much of the native biosphere the aliens want to keep intact. If they are fine with eradicating all of the native life, then bombs away! If, on the other hand, they want our wildlife and vegetation and livestock and just want to get rid of the humans, then an engineered plague would be a better weapon--something that can spread through the air like influenza, but against which we have no natural immunity.

This is again about how similar they are. If their biosphere is incompatible, removing ours with bombardment would be safer than hoping they can modify it before some pathogen adapts to them. If they are compatible or close, they might actually be able to use their biochemistry knowledge to engineer such bioweapon.

19 hours ago, Scotty said:
On 03/29/2017 at 0:45 AM, hkmaly said:

Of course that's more than enough to recognize there are (or recently were) hostilities between several countries, but may not be enough to get list of those countries or to put the geopolitical map together.

That's assuming they haven't been watching from somewhere nearby for the past couple decades.

Of course. If they have cloaking devices or are careful and willing to risk, they may be watching from close. But ... exactly how much effort they are going to put into such project?

It's likely they would want to have some idea about our civilization BEFORE spending resources to sending some probe or ship here. Unless they have cheap FTL engine and rotate big teams of experts every three months (their months, not ours) because we somehow happen to be most interesting civilization in galaxy which I somehow doubt ...

10 hours ago, Scotty said:
18 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

On Windy City Live, Neil deGrasse Tyson just solved the whole conundrum.  "Maybe aliens did come and visit Earth, but they just happened to accidentally show up during San Diego ComicCon."

That would make it easy for aliens to blend in.

Alien commander: What do you have to report on the natives, scout?

Scout: I apparently won first place in something called a cosplay competition, sir.

Unlikely. Maybe second place.

7 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Other Scout: "I think we are too late, sir. There is already a heavy Klingon presence here and they seem quite congenial with the natives."

That's assuming StarTrek scenarists were able to guess much better than expected ... or had outside info.

On the other hand, aliens would certainly need to try very hard to count how many actual alien civilization visited the Con.

"The mission on Earth was success ; we made first contact with two different civilizations. Neither of them turned to be native there but I'm sure we can make contact with Earthlings later."

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

The radiation to stop being radioactive. What, you want to lift all that to orbit and transfer somewhere else?

That's awfully wasteful.  Bury it.  Nevada has salt mines perfect for this.  You could almost just make a big pile out in the Sahara desert and cover it with a really big tarp.

Aliens with the ability to move an invasion force across space might have other technological advantages that would be capable of sorting the radioactives out of the soil.

They may also have different regulations for radioactivity and be not willing to risk underground water contamination or something similar as much as we do.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

In the real world, nuclear explosions are going to be clustered around enemy population centers and enemy military assets. 

Those tend to be on more places than expected. Especially considering the "military assets" are build on separate locations PRECISELY to make sure it will be hard for enemy to hit all of them at once.

And the nuclear arsenal is not exactly optimized, even after several attempts to disarmament we have much more nukes than needed.

I don't have access to real strategic plans for nuclear war, but I wouldn't count on anything in Europe or North America to be safe. Some parts of Asia and probably Africa may survive, yes ...

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It might actually be good strategy to send the asteroids both to Mars and Earth. First, it will create diversion. Second, why not start both terraforming projects at same time?

Impacts on Mars and Earth might seem too coincidental. 

Not so much. The idea is to send one swarm of projectiles hitting both, not two obviously separate asteroids.

Also ... even if it would seem too coincidental, what do you think we will do with that information?

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Dropping anything on Mars depends on the habitability of Mars to begin with.  Bad things happen to humans who are in microgravity for too long.  We don't know how much gravity we need to be long-term healthy or if Mars has enough.  Aliens would likely have similar issues with mars.

Unless they already have exotic matter industry and can afford to install singularity into Mars core :)

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Given that many "earthlike" exoplanets we've found are larger than our earth, the problem could be more acute for them than us.

I think that main reason we are finding bigger exoplanets is that bigger exoplanets are easier to find.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
22 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And, actually, for someone capable of moving between stars, sending few asteroids might look much simpler than landing and starting invasion. It might even require less energy if they plan to return the invasion force to orbit eventually.\

If the aliens have done their homework, they would know that a few impacts in the right places could destroy the human's food supply and get them fighting among themselves.

If they REALLY done their homework, they would know that impact on Jerusalem on 25th December will start religious wars.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Or that a few nuclear-grade energy bursts in our upper-atmosphere will create EMP bursts that will cripple most of our our technology.  The finishing touch would be destroying every satellite in geosynchronous orbit. 

That may be easier strategy: they can likely generate strong EMP bursts more effectively than we do and cripple most of our technology without any nuclear fallout, AND they don't even need to know that much about us, just looking at how much junk we have in orbits will tell them enough to consider this strategy.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

The single largest question is patience on the part of the aliens.  The more time they can allow for pre-invasion actions against Earth, especially actions before we know they are even there, the more problems they can make for us before committing to a military invasion.  This is Sun Tzu stuff.  Don't engage the enemy until he has already lost.

If they have FTL engine, they probably have other technology capable of defeating us easily. If they don't, it means it took them centuries to get here ; getting impatient now is improbable and would be sign of very bad planning.

In fact, most likely, they are going to send automatic ships before the ones with themselves, and those automatic ships will launch attack in the time window created by fact automatic ship can accelerate faster than ships with crew.

... not speaking about the possibility to launch attack in time window obtained by NOT DECELERATING. If they accelerate to 0.5c to get here fast, anything which they WONT bother slowing down (like ... empty fuel tanks) would be much more effective than any asteroid AND will arrive months if not years before the invasion force. If they would be able to aim it good enough ...

Or, if we consider the EMP plan, again, it's likely possible to fire the EMP pulse from something which is flying through our solar system in high speed ; you need to almost stop to start invasion.

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6 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

If they have FTL engine, they probably have other technology capable of defeating us easily. If they don't, it means it took them centuries to get here ; getting impatient now is improbable and would be sign of very bad planning.

Harry Turtledove's 'Worldwar' series was about exactly this last scenario. It turned out that the aliens had been a little too patient. Spy satellites reported to them that the most advanced weaponry the Earth had was in the form of an ugly biped sitting on the back of a somewhat less ugly quadraped. The biped had a long stick and wore a suit of iron links. The aliens did not consider this too problematic.

They prepared their invasion force carefully so as to make sure they could overwhelm Earth. Even bipeds on animals might be annoying if you didn't bring sufficient numbers. Eight centuries later, the invasion fleet arrived.

The date was January 1942. Earth had somewhat better weapons than expected. And everybody on the planet and his brother was either making weapons or using them. The aliens considered, then invaded the five biggest trouble spots and demanded their unconditional surrender.

The surrender demands arrived on the desks of five nice people known as Adolf Hitler, Winston Churchill, Joseph Stalin, Hideki Tojo and Franklin Delano Roosevelt. For some unexplainable reason, none of them chose to give in to the demands. Maybe they were just contrary by nature.

That war ended up taking a lot longer and being a lot more difficult than the aliens had expected.

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23 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

"The mission on Earth was success ; we made first contact with two different civilizations. Neither of them turned to be native there but I'm sure we can make contact with Earthlings later."

Let me guess.  One of the non native civilizations is a group called "Men" who were apparently from a planet the Earthlings called "Mars".  And the other civilization is a group called "Women" from a place called "Venus".

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27 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Harry Turtledove's 'Worldwar' series was about exactly this last scenario. It turned out that the aliens had been a little too patient.

True, there is this risk as well. We can't really compare if our speed of technological progress is better or worse than average. We can meet aliens which would be so surprised by our technology they wouldn't close their mouths until after WE conquer THEIR home planet ... or aliens who will do mistakes hurrying here out of fear we will match their technology level before they get here.

... or, we may get aliens who are able to predict EXACTLY how fast we invent things. The first transmission we catch on the first prototype of FTL radio will start "-mly welcome the civilization of planet Earth to our communication network."

... ok, they did get it few seconds wrong.

15 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

That war ended up taking a lot longer and being a lot more difficult than the aliens had expected.

This reminds me the novel where aliens arrived on planet just days before it's sun explosion hoping they can save someone and was surprised noone is home. They later found that despite their primitive technology, natives build fleet of slow generation spaceships and evacuated on them. The alien commander was able to find the direction they flied, easily caught up and started first contact, despite his second of command joking that they should be careful with this determined species as their galactic republic outnumber them only like twenty billions to one.

Just twenty years later, that note was no longer funny.

11 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:
38 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

"The mission on Earth was success ; we made first contact with two different civilizations. Neither of them turned to be native there but I'm sure we can make contact with Earthlings later."

Let me guess.  One of the non native civilizations is a group called "Men" who were apparently from a planet the Earthlings called "Mars".  And the other civilization is a group called "Women" from a place called "Venus".

I was thinking actual three different spaceflight capable civilizations meeting on Earth, but your idea isn't bad either. Except the aliens would need to be very stupid or very sloppy in Venus observation to believe anyone looking remotely human lives there.

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