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Scotty

More Speculation.

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A random speculation hit my brain while waiting for my shift to end.

I know this was discussed WAAAAYYYY back before the most recent forum crash.  But I still find the question intriguing.

Down the road a long way, I expect Tedd and Grace to marry and have kids.  It would not surprise me at all if Tedd and Grace each took a turn carrying a child nine months in the human manner.

It also seems possible that they might try for one (or more) via Uryuom egg.  If they chose that option, they could seek additional genetic material for their child.

From whom would Tedd and Grace request genetic material?

What relationship would those people have to the child(ren)?

My thought is that Grace and Tedd would clearly be Mom and Momanddad to the child, so the other contributors would probably be "uncles" and "aunts" in the sense that they are close adult relatives.  And the specific Uryuomco titles probably don't translate to English easily.

But who would they approach in the first place?

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8 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

A random speculation hit my brain while waiting for my shift to end.

I know this was discussed WAAAAYYYY back before the most recent forum crash.  But I still find the question intriguing.

Down the road a long way, I expect Tedd and Grace to marry and have kids.  It would not surprise me at all if Tedd and Grace each took a turn carrying a child nine months in the human manner.

It also seems possible that they might try for one (or more) via Uryuom egg.  If they chose that option, they could seek additional genetic material for their child.

From whom would Tedd and Grace request genetic material?

What relationship would those people have to the child(ren)?

My thought is that Grace and Tedd would clearly be Mom and Momanddad to the child, so the other contributors would probably be "uncles" and "aunts" in the sense that they are close adult relatives.  And the specific Uryuomco titles probably don't translate to English easily.

But who would they approach in the first place?

Any of their friends of course, Sarah, Elliot and Ellen would likely be on board. Nanase I'm not sure, she'd be "aunt" as well as mother and cousin due to being Tedd's cousin.

Justin and Grace are likely pretty close friends now since they work together at the comic shop, so he might. Susan could be the most reluctant, but I dunno.

biologically they'd all be the the child's moms and dads, but publicly they'd likely be the child's godparents.

Also the idea of taking turns being the mother is something I've wanted Nanase and Ellen to be able to do.

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It dawns on me, that unless The Dan is doing the current NP because he can't think of any thing else, it might be safe to assume that magic, at least as done by Ellen, isn't going to change anytime soon.  If it is, why spend all this time showing what she can and can not do?

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Perhaps because Ellen's contribution to the conflict will be vital and dramatic right up to the point where the system resets.  Then knowing what she did to save the day and how much she lost will make the consequences that much more dramatic.

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14 hours ago, mlooney said:

It dawns on me, that unless The Dan is doing the current NP because he can't think of any thing else, it might be safe to assume that magic, at least as done by Ellen, isn't going to change anytime soon.  If it is, why spend all this time showing what she can and can not do?

While it's certain that the NP is filler until Dan gets Goonmanji 2 sorted out, I'm uncertain of the reason why Dan chose this particular subject. I hope it's not to show us what she can do before she loses her magic. I want to say that the choice in doing the NP has no bearing on the main story.

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I'll bet several scores of $Q that the end of "Sisters III" will be an epic battle, with the forces of good winning out, but at the tragic cost of Pandora.

The feels will be massive.

 

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So I had a bad thought about how Voltaire might be able to really traumatize Tedd.

Pose as Edward and force a confrontation with Tedd about his gender bending habits. Voltaire's impersonated Abner to give misinformation, we've also seen Pandora pose as Fox to guide Nanase, what's stopping Voltaire from posing as Edward and going off on a transphobic rant at Tedd?

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20 hours ago, Scotty said:

So I had a bad thought about how Voltaire might be able to really traumatize Tedd.

Pose as Edward and force a confrontation with Tedd about his gender bending habits. Voltaire's impersonated Abner to give misinformation, we've also seen Pandora pose as Fox to guide Nanase, what's stopping Voltaire from posing as Edward and going off on a transphobic rant at Tedd?

Maybe he didn't think of it? Or it may not count as "guiding"? There's also the possibility that Tedd might see through the disguise.

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On 8/13/2017 at 1:58 AM, partner555 said:

Maybe he didn't think of it? Or it may not count as "guiding"? There's also the possibility that Tedd might see through the disguise.

I'm inclined to agree here.  I'd expect that posing as Ed Verres would be a violation of Immortal law, which is why Voltaire used such roundabout means to try to kill Elliot...and that was the simple plan!

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4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I'm inclined to agree here.  I'd expect that posing as Ed Verres would be a violation of Immortal law, which is why Voltaire used such roundabout means to try to kill Elliot...and that was the simple plan!

I get this feeling that the fairies idea of simple plans and human's idea about simple plans aren't all that close.

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1 minute ago, mlooney said:

I get this feeling that the fairies idea of simple plans and human's idea about simple plans aren't all that close.

When you have Immoral Law mucking things up, sure...

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8 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

When you have Immoral Law mucking things up, sure...

*scratches head* So which legislative body makes Immoral Law and isn't that kind of a contradiction of terms, sorta like Unethical Principles?

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21 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I'm inclined to agree here.  I'd expect that posing as Ed Verres would be a violation of Immortal law, which is why Voltaire used such roundabout means to try to kill Elliot...and that was the simple plan!

I don't think there's anything preventing Voltaire from impersonating Edward as much as there wasn't anything preventing Voltaire from impersonating Abner, or Pandora from impersonating Wolf. There isn't an Immortal Law that states "Edward Verres is to not ever be impersonated", the fact that he's a VIP in the paranormal world means that Immortals believe they shouldn't mess with him, because he's really good at what he does and he could probably kick their arses with charts and exposition. But using him or his likeness to manipulate others would still fall under the "guide and empower" rule.

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1 minute ago, Scotty said:

I don't think there's anything preventing Voltaire from impersonating Edward as much as there wasn't anything preventing Voltaire from impersonating Abner, or Pandora from impersonating Wolf. There isn't an Immortal Law that states "Edward Verres is to not ever be impersonated", the fact that he's a VIP in the paranormal world means that Immortals believe they shouldn't mess with him, because he's really good at what he does and he could probably kick their arses with charts and exposition. But using him or his likeness to manipulate others would still fall under the "guide and empower" rule.

Thinking about it, I have to agree.  Immortals are obviously allowed to impersonate.

But I can't think that the ability is unlimited.  Immortals aren't allowed to directly inflict harm and I suspect that includes emotional harm.  Your suggestion that Voltaire could simply impersonate Ed Verres and further mess Tedd up would *be* the infliction of emotional harm.

Pandora's intent playing at being Agent Wolf was merely to get to see her son.  Voltaire impersonating Abner did no harm to Sirleck.   (though if he does go after Raven he could be in for some cubic buttloads of harm via Raven himself or even Pandora)

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On 8/13/2017 at 3:58 AM, partner555 said:

Maybe he didn't think of it? Or it may not count as "guiding"? There's also the possibility that Tedd might see through the disguise.

I think it counts as guiding if the Immortal believes it's being done to guide.  Heck, an Immortal might be able to convince themself that hurting someone to "toughen them up" would count as empowering them.

On 8/14/2017 at 2:46 PM, Vorlonagent said:

I'd expect that posing as Ed Verres would be a violation of Immortal law

Again, it would depend on why the Immortal believed they were impersonating them.  If it were done to guide and/or empower then Immortal Law wouldn't apply.

9 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Immortals aren't allowed to directly inflict harm and I suspect that includes emotional harm.  Your suggestion that Voltaire could simply impersonate Ed Verres and further mess Tedd up would *be* the infliction of emotional harm.

I read this idea in a different thread before I got to this one, but I'll repeat here, some lessons are harsh.  Emotional harm which the Immortal honestly believes to be for the ultimate purpose of guiding and empowering may well pass.

9 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Pandora's intent playing at being Agent Wolf was merely to get to see her son.  Voltaire impersonating Abner did no harm to Sirleck.   (though if he does go after Raven he could be in for some cubic buttloads of harm via Raven himself or even Pandora)

You seem to be limiting yourself to immediate overt harm.  Voltaire impersonating Abner certainly does seem like it will ultimately bring Sirleck harm, and I would be very surprised if Voltaire wasn't fully aware of that fact, if not counting on it, not to mention the harm likely to come to Adrian, Pandora, and any other victims (likely human).  Immortals are smarter than that; saying "I'm not hurting him right this minute" when the true goal is "I want do this because it will bring harm to him in a week" (or even a year), isn't going to fool the Immortal in question.  They have to convince themselves that their actions truly count as empowering and/or guiding in order to take them.

I do wonder about the definition of "guide" though.  Strictly speaking, you can guide someone off a cliff or into traffic.  Does their "guiding" have to be beneficial to everyone involved?  To at least one person involved?  Or can it benefit no one, as long as it's guiding?

Perhaps the only way Immortals truly get more powerful as they age is that they get better at rationalizing their actions....

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9 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Or can it benefit no one, as long as it's guiding?

Voltaire's guiding of Tara didn't seem to have any benefits to her, as Voltaire was intentionally preventing her from finding her wife while getting her emotionally charged and believing Elliot was responsible. What if Tara succeeded in killing Elliot, would Voltaire miraculously reveal Andrea's location? And what would happen if Andrea just said she got lost and Elliot's only fault was not understanding the code phrase? Heck, it's possible Voltaire would just disappear and Tara would be left at square one, Tara would have murdered Elliot for nothing.

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14 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I think it counts as guiding if the Immortal believes it's being done to guide.  Heck, an Immortal might be able to convince themself that hurting someone to "toughen them up" would count as empowering them.

Again, it would depend on why the Immortal believed they were impersonating them.  If it were done to guide and/or empower then Immortal Law wouldn't apply.

I read this idea in a different thread before I got to this one, but I'll repeat here, some lessons are harsh.  Emotional harm which the Immortal honestly believes to be for the ultimate purpose of guiding and empowering may well pass.

I'll agree to the principle but maintain my disagreement with the example.

I have a hard time seeing Voltaire impersonating Ed Verres in order to further gender-shame Tedd as passing muster.  That was Scotty's suggestion.  Note that even when Voltaire considers routes he could have taken to "guide and empower" Tedd in the direction he wants Tedd to go, Impersonating Ed Verres wasn't on his list of options.

14 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

You seem to be limiting yourself to immediate overt harm.  Voltaire impersonating Abner certainly does seem like it will ultimately bring Sirleck harm, and I would be very surprised if Voltaire wasn't fully aware of that fact, if not counting on it, not to mention the harm likely to come to Adrian, Pandora, and any other victims (likely human).  Immortals are smarter than that; saying "I'm not hurting him right this minute" when the true goal is "I want do this because it will bring harm to him in a week" (or even a year), isn't going to fool the Immortal in question.  They have to convince themselves that their actions truly count as empowering and/or guiding in order to take them.

Something I realized elsewhere was that if Pandora could run around and kill every werewolf, presumably directly and personally,  then Immortal law doesn't cover werewolves as if they were human.  Strong bet that Aberrents/Vampires aren't human for purposes of Immortal law either.  So Voltaire can mean Sirleck harm. 

I also wouldn't be surprised to find that Immortal law doesn't cover unexpected consequences.  So humans that might get hurt because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time when Sirleck and Adrian throw down aren't Voltaire's fault either.

15 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I do wonder about the definition of "guide" though.  Strictly speaking, you can guide someone off a cliff or into traffic.  Does their "guiding" have to be beneficial to everyone involved?  To at least one person involved?  Or can it benefit no one, as long as it's guiding?

Perhaps the only way Immortals truly get more powerful as they age is that they get better at rationalizing their actions....

New and Old Flames: Voltaire was able to "guide" Dex into having the bulldog-dragon try to destroy Greg's dojo (presumably killing everybody inside including Dex) without being forcibly reset, so "Guide" can be read pretty broadly.

Certainly Immortals could gain more freedom to act as they get better at rationalizing their actions or keeping enough control over their thoughts that they don't trigger a reset.  I would expect the insanity that builds up over time might make more and more reset-worthy actions fail to trigger a reset.

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Ok, this isn't so much speculation, but a question and possible frustration.

The question: What are the chances Grace told Tedd about the illusion Adrian put on her during "Death Sentence" making her look like Susan?

Its possible that Tedd and Sarah are going to talk about Pandora the next time they see each other, Tedd might be itching to tell Sarah "Box"s real name and that she's his great godmother, and mention Mr Raven being his godfather which would confirm what Sarah concluded after her last visit from "Box", Sarah knows that Pandora had a previous version of herself send a lie to her next life and that it's a big deal and something that could affect her relationship with her son, if Grace had told Tedd about the illusion and mentioned that Adrian said he couldn't have kids, it's possible he could jump to the conclusion that the lie was about Elves not being able to have kids, and that the Susan might be related to Adrian.

The frustration would come from Grace having not told Tedd about the illusion, as it would likely mean Sarah telling Tedd her side, and then Tedd mentioning it to Grace after school and Grace jumping to that conclusion, but it may be too late by that point to tell anyone else.

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Sarah has never met Mr. Raven as far as we know, or Diane. I don't think there's anything in canon that says Sarah knows about Susan's doppelganger or that Grace told Sarah about that image of Susan she saw in Mr. Raven's mirror--although Susan does know Mr. Raven is a half-immortal. So things are still pretty open for Dan to pick his options here without stepping on any setups he left in his own canon.

Given the title of the current Part 19, Family Gatherings, I wouldn't be surprised if Pandora checks up on Susan and/or Diane even if she doesn't show herself or talk directly with them. However, the way Pandora finished Part 18 suggests to me that Pandora is kind of expecting big trouble even if she doesn't know exactly what. I don't think she wants to give up that "almost clairvoyant" part of being a very old Immortal until she's sure her family will be safe.

 

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4 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Sarah has never met Mr. Raven as far as we know, or Diane. I don't think there's anything in canon that says Sarah knows about Susan's doppelganger or that Grace told Sarah about that image of Susan she saw in Mr. Raven's mirror--although Susan does know Mr. Raven is a half-immortal. So things are still pretty open for Dan to pick his options here without stepping on any setups he left in his own canon.

No, Sarah hasn't met them, but she does know of them, she knows about the deal with everyone thinking that Susan and Diane are related and I think that, along with her suspecting that Mr Raven is Box's son and that Box told her about there being a lie that's a really big deal that her son might hate her for, all Sarah needs is to be told about Grace's experience looking like Susan, and being told by Mr Raven that he can't have children, for Sarah to think that the lie had to do with Mr Raven not being able to have children. There is a chance that Grace has told Tedd and if not, then Sarah could tell Tedd about what Box told her and Tedd can then tell Grace who may come to the same conclusion.

4 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Given the title of the current Part 19, Family Gatherings, I wouldn't be surprised if Pandora checks up on Susan and/or Diane even if she doesn't show herself or talk directly with them. However, the way Pandora finished Part 18 suggests to me that Pandora is kind of expecting big trouble even if she doesn't know exactly what. I don't think she wants to give up that "almost clairvoyant" part of being a very old Immortal until she's sure her family will be safe.

I'm pretty sure Pandora already visited Susan and met Jerry 2.0 in the process. That happened before she visited Sarah so I would say that Pandora got confirmation then as well. We know that Pandora is aware of another Immortal (Voltaire) causing trouble and she definitely wants to make sure that's dealt with before she "refreshes", it is very uncertain if she's aware just how large a scale that trouble is going to be.

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