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mlooney

On culture appropriation

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Many, if not most. of the original monsters in table top role playing games come from European sources.  Some time later monsters from Arabia and Persia started showing up.  Still later various south Asian and east Asian.

My problem is I am a white guy.  I know, almost in my blood, about "Western" monsters.  I have enough knowledge about Djinn to be able to use them with something resembling respect.  Kami, Kisune, Oni etc.?  Not so much.  So, my question is should I do what many. if not most, designers do, sort of slap an Asian feel on them and just go with it, or use generic1 terms, with a notice that says "other cultures may have other terms for these creatures".  Of course there is the 3rd option, study the mythology of the monster in question native culture, but I have done quite enough "research"2 as it is.

1Read European/American terminology.
2Read real work on the project avoidance.
 

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3 hours ago, mlooney said:

Many, if not most. of the original monsters in table top role playing games come from European sources.  Some time later monsters from Arabia and Persia started showing up.  Still later various south Asian and east Asian.

My problem is I am a white guy.  I know, almost in my blood, about "Western" monsters.  I have enough knowledge about Djinn to be able to use them with something resembling respect.  Kami, Kisune, Oni etc.?  Not so much.  So, my question is should I do what many. if not most, designers do, sort of slap an Asian feel on them and just go with it, or use generic1 terms, with a notice that says "other cultures may have other terms for these creatures".  Of course there is the 3rd option, study the mythology of the monster in question native culture, but I have done quite enough "research"2 as it is.

1Read European/American terminology.
2Read real work on the project avoidance.
 

My suggestion is: skip the Asian and similar cultures you have not read up on till you have the time. Also, you are doing science fiction. It is not impossible to make up decent monsters, merely challenging. Do as much as that as you feel up to, your game will be the better for it. Players will appreciate meeting something that isn't Recycled Space Ork #477.

Alternately: find someone with a good appreciation of Asian cultures. Ideally someone Chinese for Chinese creatures, Japanese for the Japanese ones, et cetera. Consult them for their takes on your ideas. Pay close attention to them, they are the experts. We have at least one Filipino poster here, they should have their own take that is just as important.

And while I do not want to depress you: take even what you know about European/Western creatures with a grain of salt. I have seen interpretations of Scandinavian mythology that made me cringe. Hitler notwithstanding, Scandinavia does NOT have a population of Nazi werewolves in our mythology. It is always a good idea to check your assumptions.

Big tip: if you do use mythological creatures or merely strange ones, it does not hurt to give them understandable motivations and behavior patterns. I may be preaching to the choir here but it is often a good idea to spend a few minutes thinking about what the creatures might be engaged in when they are not eating adventurers. I am guilty of horrendous stuff myself, such as the ravenous packs of half-starved polar bears rampaging across the endless ice plains of Futilia IV, but in my defence I was deliberately parodying bad sci fi there and not even bothering to make up an ecology that could explain their existence.

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Suggestion re: monsters. Why do they always have to be so much stronger than humans? Reference the "Skinnies" in the original novel version of Heinlein's "Starship Troopers."  Can't they be different while remaining just as vulnerable as humans?

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5 hours ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

Suggestion re: monsters. Why do they always have to be so much stronger than humans? Reference the "Skinnies" in the original novel version of Heinlein's "Starship Troopers."  Can't they be different while remaining just as vulnerable as humans?

Most of them, at least those that are not Lovecraftian, and even some of those, are with in normal human ranges.

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And for intelligent monsters that have cultures, assume their culture is influenced by intelligent beings (such as themselves).

Let's consider, for example, werewolves. Ones that retain human-level intelligence in all their forms.

Do they openly rule over the humans in their world? Then they may regard the humans as inferior-but-still-people, or as their cattle. In either case they won't appreciate the werewolf who goes on a bloodthirsty rampage, slaughtering some random human every night.

Do they live in secrecy, fearing the humans' greater numbers? Then they will regard that bloodthirsty werewolf as a serious threat - if he's discovered, the humans might go looking for OTHER werewolves.

Do they have some other dynamic of coexistence? Then they'll worry that the bloodthirsty werewolf will upset the stability of that dynamic.

Are they so numerous that non-werewolf humans are the subject of myth? Then the bloodthirsty werewolf's victims are, they will assume, other werewolves; this is clearly murder.

In other words, werewolves hate - and will hunt down and dispose of - the slavering slaughtering bloodthirsty werewolf. Quite possibly even more eagerly than the humans will.

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I've been reading "Bikini Armor Battle Damage".  I've looked over the stock art I bought for the 2 tries ago version of my current project.  Oh boy.  Need to get/make different art of humans/humanoid characters.  I am NOT going to be part of the GamerBros if I can help it. 

Well, that adds another layer of stuff I will need to work on, but at least writers block isn't really a problem with doing character designs.  I'll live with the "3d renders can be uncanny valley" issues.  I think if I use the "cartoon" render engine of Daz Studio it might help.  Need to do some tests on that.  Or get serious about Blender and Make Human.

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Due to being in a manic state I haven't stopped reading Bikini Armor Battle Damage.  Because I never go on the Internet with out an ad blocker and I don't have much contact with the computer gaming world I am gobsmacked by some of the "armor" being used.

After a short review of my 3d models, I have about 10 that I can use.  That should be enough, as a normal party is 4 - 7 players.  I think I will do what both Wizards and he Pathfinder people have done and make "iconic" characters.

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7 hours ago, mlooney said:

Because I never go on the Internet with out an ad blocker and I don't have much contact with the computer gaming world I am gobsmacked by some of the "armor" being used.

Tera Online is probably the worst offender I can think of when it comes to bikini "armor". Just googling "Tera Online armor" would give you plenty of examples if that blog hasn't already done so.

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5 hours ago, Scotty said:

Tera Online is probably the worst offender I can think of when it comes to bikini "armor". Just googling "Tera Online armor" would give you plenty of examples if that blog hasn't already done so.

It has shown up a lot. 

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On 4/29/2017 at 7:22 AM, mlooney said:

Due to being in a manic state I haven't stopped reading Bikini Armor Battle Damage.  Because I never go on the Internet with out an ad blocker and I don't have much contact with the computer gaming world I am gobsmacked by some of the "armor" being used.

It tends to range from stupid through awful to mind-bogglingly senseless. It has been a pet peeve of mine for many years now and I have at times spent good parts of an entire game session chatting with friends of mine about how idiotic it is and/or about the latest horrors perpetrated by fandom, artists and the gaming industry. *sigh*

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I'm using this one for a couple of reasons. 

1) I started it and

2) It's about my game.

3) And it's about a culture other than mine, not being a medical person1.

 

@CritterKeeper, what would be your thoughts on ALL medical sciences being rolled into one skill, with the tweak that you can study for species other than your own.  So you would have Md and MdX, who can deal with other than their kind?  So your degree would be a MdX, not a DVM.  Also, the title Doctor would be attached to skill level 3 or higher.

 

1I think I hurt my arm on that stretchy bit there... 

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On 4/22/2017 at 4:34 PM, The Old Hack said:

Alternately: find someone with a good appreciation of Asian cultures. Ideally someone Chinese for Chinese creatures, Japanese for the Japanese ones, et cetera. Consult them for their takes on your ideas. Pay close attention to them, they are the experts. We have at least one Filipino poster here, they should have their own take that is just as important.

You rang, good sir?

Well actually now that I've read some of the posts here I can I guess throw my own two cents into this. My best advice is to deffer to people you may know of from the Asian countries/cultures you wanna get material from and observe how they use their lower mythologies and bestiaries in local literature. For example in the home country you can just take the most well-known interpretations of a certain creature, and pretty much just go where you want with it as long as those base traits are acknowledged and respected. I'll get into more detail upon request.

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3 hours ago, mlooney said:

@CritterKeeper, what would be your thoughts on ALL medical sciences being rolled into one skill, with the tweak that you can study for species other than your own.  So you would have Md and MdX, who can deal with other than their kind?  So your degree would be a MdX, not a DVM.  Also, the title Doctor would be attached to skill level 3 or higher.

Hmm, I think that has the potential to end up very human-centric/human-chauvanist, but with a truly mixed-species crew it might work.  Another option would be to divide it into broad categories, such as Mammalian vs Reptilian vs Dinosaurian, etc.  Vets already have specialties like Avian, Reptile and Amphibian, and Small Mammal (non dog and cat, eg hamsters, ferrets, bunnies).  Getting additional certifications could mean a small amount of info on a large number of categories, or knowing one other type almost as well as your own species but knowing zippo about any others.

I do think there's a huge difference between working on sentient vs non-sentient patients, so you should keep the profession of Veterinarian but most likely players wouldn't have much reason to choose it.  If there's a sick critter, they can either bring in a Vet or they can take a significant penalty for not knowing what to do with a patient who can't describe symptoms or follow instructions; critical failure would result in injury to patient, MD, holders, or all three.  More likely for an MD to harm a sparrow and to be harmed by a cow, but anything with a mouth can bite, not to mention talons, horns, and good strong kicks with tough sharp-edged hooves!  Heck, rabbits have been known to break their own backs struggling, and a sick bird could die of stress just being picked up to examine....

1 hour ago, Red Regent said:

 in the home country you can just take the most well-known interpretations of a certain creature, and pretty much just go where you want with it as long as those base traits are acknowledged and respected. I'll get into more detail upon request.

Rather like how vampires are handled here, then?  Some have to drink someone dry nightly, others a few swallows from a cow will do nicely for a week.  Some can turn into bats, wolves, mist.  Some disintegrate with a stake through the heart, others can revive centuries later if some fool pulls the stake out of their skeletal remains.  The original Dracula, Harker first spots Dracula in England at the zoo in the middle of the afternoon; many Hollywood vampires burst into flame at the slightest touch of sunlight, or even UV lamps.

Just make sure you avoid the equivalent of making them sparkle.

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1 minute ago, CritterKeeper said:

Just make sure you avoid the equivalent of making them sparkle.

WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY ! *applies steamroller offscreen*

 

Also yes that will work but I have a few other alternatives, though this one will take a fair bit of legwork. The Aswang Project is an archiving website that focuses on pre-colonial mythology and folklore of the Philippines and has done extensive work in their research; they mix everything from word of mouth of native peoples, a backlog of historical documents written and produced by other archivists from decades of study, and applies geographic, anthropological, and historical context for these things. I'd like you to observe how they disseminate say, a Tikbalang for example.

I really love how they do it because they do it in stages:
1. Preliminaries: Where they tell you what the creature is, it's physical traits, and its most well known mannerisms and attitudes
2. Contextualization: By studying the anthropological and historical background of the home country they begin to piece together the creature from bits and snippets from different time periods and watch it slowly evolve into the horseheaded man-beast that it is today
3. Modern usage: Some of the consultants are also authors of local literature and they give their own examples of how they used the creature in their stories
4. Summary: Where they basically evaluate the historical and cultural significance of it, talk about how modern writers are beginning to see the value of the beast, and what it means for the greater scope of Philippine, Asian, and World Literature as a whole moving forward

I was lucky to come across the site and the links to it and I'm certain you'll find something similar to the site's equivalent for Chinese or Japanese lower mythology (which is what you should concentrate on if you're looking for beasts and monsters), and considering (especially for Japan) how well documented their mythology is, I think it'll be easier for you to track these down.

As a matter of respect and I guess awareness I'd suggest you try to track down the cultural and historical backgrounds of the creatures you'll end up borrowing for your literature. Libraries and other sources are gold mines for this information so best start looking there. Also try to find modern interpretations of them in local media; which I admit will be considerably difficult since there are language barriers, but I'm certain they'll still be found. In fact considering how Japan uses its creatures and iconography so often in anime and manga, I think any of those interpretations will be suitable for the task at hand.

 In my own work in researching these things I've come to the conclusion that to borrow a mythical creature is to take a part of it's culture's identity and history; the Tikbalang wouldn't have a horse's head if not for Hindu influence; it wouldn't be demonized if not for the Spanish and the introduction of Christianity; it wouldn't have the common name of Tikbalang if not for the consolidation and homogenization of the creature in the early 20th century by anthropologists and historians; and nobody would probably care about it today if not for a shift towards indigenous stories and beliefs in the 90s which still resonates until today. You'll notice that those talking points I brought up are a very short summary of my country's history (Pre-Islamic/Pre-Colonial Era, Spanish Colonial Era, American Colonial Era, contemporary era) which is why some people can get understandably angry if these are misused; not only is the creature misrepresented, but also the culture it came from.

Understandably this will take a lot of reading on your part if you're unfamiliar with the culture you're borrowing from, and your [reader's] millage may vary on how good or bad your interpretation is. I personally believe you don't need to have encyclopedic knowledge of the creature and it's background to talk about it but as a matter of respect and to generate real, tangible cultural enrichment, I'd highly advise at least bringing what you know about the creature and it's background up to acknowledge its roots.

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There are some traits that are common to most of the animals of this Earth.  A few broad categories that define significant sections of the family tree.

Depending on how "alien" the alien life forms are, all medical skills may be required to specialize by planet of species origin.

And some specialties that may be required.

Unicellular or multicellular?
Colony or organism?
One opening for the digestive tract or two?
Exoskeleton, internal skeleton, or squishy?
Gills or lungs?
Aquatic, amphibious, or terrestrial?
Feet, yes or no?
Skin, smooth and dry, smooth and wet, scales, feathers, or hair?
Reproduction
    fully external
    internal fertilization with external development
    fully internal
    eggs stay in water
    eggs stay on land
    eggs stay in mommy
    no eggs, stay in mommy
    not tonight I have a headache

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