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The Old Hack

Story Friday April 28, 2017

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2 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

I was just re-re-re-re-re... I was just reading Family Ties again (I've re-read it so many times I've lost count)

I'm usually losing count of rereading at 3, so ... (and that's not counting how I often reread just part of storyline, searching for something).

3 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Take a look at Rhea in the first two panels, especially in the second panel where Diane dives past Rhea. Diane leaves sort of a white streak behind her--and Rhea is naked!

She's not actually naked. It's just optical illusion caused by the skirt being behind Diane and the shirt and her legs appearing same color behind the "filter" of Diane's move effect. But interesting illusion indeed.

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17 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

I was just re-re-re-re-re... I was just reading Family Ties again (I've re-read it so many times I've lost count) and I saw something I missed before. Take a look at Rhea in the first two panels, especially in the second panel where Diane dives past Rhea. Diane leaves sort of a white streak behind her--and Rhea is naked! Was this just a gag, or did Dan plant another hint about something there?

Naked Rhea may be old news to long-time EGS fans. This forum doesn't go back that far. When I first started reading EGS Elliot and Ashley were already on their date at the Mall (so it was only five days ago, sort of.)

I don't think so, Diane's body covers Rhea's skirt. Rhea's also got dark skin which isn't seen in the second panel because again Diane covers that. Notice as well that the white streak from Diane's dive also affects the shading of the floor lamp, TV and couch.

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Yes, Rhea is naked. The seam line of her sleeve at the shoulder is gone, and that's above the streak. In the first panel, the sleeves on Rhea's shirt are drawn noticably wider than her arms. Rhea's arms in the second panel are skinnier because the shirt is missing. The extra line near Rick's ankle indicates he is wearing pants.

And note that in the second panel Diane is literally covering her sister's butt. I wonder if this will mean Diane will be on call to fill in for Angelic Tweeting Bird or Prude Puffin in future comics?

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Maybe Rhea kicked off her shoes.  Maybe.  But there is not enough there to convince me that anything above the knee has been removed.

I think Diane's position relative to Rhea is having the same effect as randomly BLEEPing words in a quote.

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19 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Maybe Rhea kicked off her shoes.  Maybe.  But there is not enough there to convince me that anything above the knee has been removed.

So you don't believe that there's absolutely no depiction of the shirt showing in the second panel when Dan clearly took some care to differentiate the sleeves from the arms underneath them in the first panel?

You could be right about the shoes, but we'll never know since Rhea's feet are never shown anywhere in Family Ties before that second panel. You, of course, may continue to believe to believe that Rhea is not naked. I will continue to believe that Rhea is naked until I die or until Dan himself says otherwise.

By the way, some years ago my girlfriend was waiting for an MRI at Stanford Hospital and she found out there was a mummy ahead of her. Was that you?

 

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2 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

By the way, some years ago my girlfriend was waiting for an MRI at Stanford Hospital and she found out there was a mummy ahead of her. Was that you?

Stanford?  Absolutely not.

I have been avoiding the western half of the United States for the last quarter century.  I'm not moving towards the Pacific Coast until Vegas puts that pyramid back where they found it.

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29 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

You, of course, may continue to believe to believe that Rhea is not naked. I will continue to believe that Rhea is naked until I die or until Dan himself says otherwise.

Note that she was certainly NOT naked later, but it's true it's likely after several minutes ...

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Note that she was certainly NOT naked later, but it's true it's likely after several minutes ...

True, true. Actually what I was driving at is that Rhea appears to be naked in that one panel. It's either a gag (as in "Let's see if anyone notices that.") or maybe it's saying something about Diane's nascent magic.

Come to think of it, how is it stealthy to jump as high as Diane is doing? Shouldn't Diane make a big THUMP! when she lands? Could it be that Diane's stealth is magical?

Just sayin'...

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12 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Come to think of it, how is it stealthy to jump as high as Diane is doing? Shouldn't Diane make a big THUMP! when she lands? Could it be that Diane's stealth is magical?

Unlikely, considering she's not even close to awakening. Remember that not only magic marks, but even use of magic items gets you closer to awakening.

More likely, the carpet is thick. Or there is music playing.

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8 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Yes, Rhea is naked. The seam line of her sleeve at the shoulder is gone, and that's above the streak. In the first panel, the sleeves on Rhea's shirt are drawn noticably wider than her arms. Rhea's arms in the second panel are skinnier because the shirt is missing. The extra line near Rick's ankle indicates he is wearing pants.

The angle of the "camera" change significantly between panels. Panel 1 appears to be from a standing person of average height's perspective, and panel is someone crouching behind the couch. There is also a little more distance between the "camera" and Rhea in the second panel which would make her look smaller.

Also, that's not rick standing in front of Rhea, it's those two "lesbians" from the previous page. BTW, if you really want a conspiracy theory, you should ask why the pigtailed girl looks a lot like extra-girly Tedd. ;)

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3 hours ago, Scotty said:

if you really want a conspiracy theory, you should ask why the pigtailed girl looks a lot like extra-girly Tedd.

What conspiracy?

AF04 Tess was invited to the party.  That is to say, she was invited to AF04 Rhea's party.  She joined in the fun until realizing that she was in the wrong universe, again.  Then she slipped out before Not Tengu arrived.  She didn't even get any punch.

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8 hours ago, Scotty said:

it's those two "lesbians" from the previous page.

You saw the bit of turtleneck above whosits arm, didn't you? The same-hair fooled me. Of course, it could be that the owner of the third foot is a third, entirely different person, perhaps of an entirely different gender preference. It could be that the third leg showing is, in fact, not actually attached to a body at all. The spare leg doesn't seem to align either with the turtleneck-wearer or the owner of the spare arm blocking our view of most of the collar, assuming said arm is not another independent limb. Perhaps the spare arm and the spare leg are both protruding through a gate to another worlds, with the main portion of their owner on the other side. Or gates, owners, and sides. Or they are indeed Spare Parts™, practical jokes I have seen on sale, completely real in our own world, that come with a length of sleeve or pant leg. But whomever the third leg in view does belong to, that leg has a line drawn on it which has to represent either the bottom seam of a pant leg or the top of a sock--not a shoe because we don't wear shoes in anyone's home. The point is, whether the line represents a pant leg or a sock, it indisputably and clearly represents clothing. And the line that indicated the shoulder seam on Rhea's shirt in the first panel does not appear on said shoulder in the second panel even though the shoulder is clearly in view, despite the different POV and possibly longer range from the "camera."

I tweeted Dan at @elgoonishshive with the question "Is Rhea supposed to look naked". Perhaps Dan will tweet in reply.

I sound rather like a lawyer, don't I? Perhaps that comes from my girlfriend. I met her when she was going to Stanford Law School 29 years ago.

On a final note for this post, perhaps we can safely remove the quotation marks from "lesbians" after reviewing panel two of this following page.

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9 hours ago, Scotty said:

Also, that's not rick standing in front of Rhea, it's those two "lesbians" from the previous page. BTW, if you really want a conspiracy theory, you should ask why the pigtailed girl looks a lot like extra-girly Tedd. ;)

That MIGHT be effect of the punch already - Tedd and Nanase DO look similar.

More interesting question is what is Sarah doing there (last panel). I mean, older Sarah?

10 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

On a final note for this post, perhaps we can safely remove the quotation marks from "lesbians" after reviewing panel two of this following page.

What?

If you mean this page, note that this is after more punch, meaning not only more alcohol but also more enchantment. They probably aren't lesbian, but the enchantment is turning them into Nanases, who IS lesbian.

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41 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

You saw the bit of turtleneck above whosits arm, didn't you? The same-hair fooled me. Of course, it could be that the owner of the third foot is a third, entirely different person, perhaps of an entirely different gender preference. It could be that the third leg showing is, in fact, not actually attached to a body at all. The spare leg doesn't seem to align either with the turtleneck-wearer or the owner of the spare arm blocking our view of most of the collar, assuming said arm is not another independent limb. Perhaps the spare arm and the spare leg are both protruding through a gate to another worlds, with the main portion of their owner on the other side. Or gates, owners, and sides. Or they are indeed Spare Parts™, practical jokes I have seen on sale, completely real in our own world, that come with a length of sleeve or pant leg. But whomever the third leg in view does belong to, that leg has a line drawn on it which has to represent either the bottom seam of a pant leg or the top of a sock--not a shoe because we don't wear shoes in anyone's home. The point is, whether the line represents a pant leg or a sock, it indisputably and clearly represents clothing. And the line that indicated the shoulder seam on Rhea's shirt in the first panel does not appear on said shoulder in the second panel even though the shoulder is clearly in view, despite the different POV and possibly longer range from the "camera."

Neither Rick nor Elijah wore a turtleneck, Rick's shirt is the same shade as the pigtailed girl's sweater dress but Elijah's wearing a light T-shirt over a black long sleeved shirt, also both have darker hair than the girls. I can't say for certain what Dan's process it for drawing a scene, but most tend to draw people first to set poses and such, then draw the props like furniture, so that leg would have to match up with the girl's body, it just that we don't see how because furniture and other bodies are in the way, it's either the left leg of the short haired girl, or the left leg of the pigtailed girl whom we only see the arm of in the second panel. If you flip ahead a few pages, we see the two girls making out and you can see the short haired girl's pants do go to her ankles and she's wearing light coloured socks, would make sense to see that detail, as our view is low enough to see it, but Rhea's shoulder seam could now be matched with the top of the shoulder, like where it rounds off is where the seam is.

27 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

That MIGHT be effect of the punch already - Tedd and Nanase DO look similar.

The punch didn't start taking effect until a few pages later though.

27 minutes ago, hkmaly said:
41 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

On a final note for this post, perhaps we can safely remove the quotation marks from "lesbians" after reviewing panel two of this following page.

What?

If you mean this page, note that this is after more punch, meaning not only more alcohol but also more enchantment. They probably aren't lesbian, but the enchantment is turning them into Nanases, who IS lesbian.

Dan's commentary on that page suggests it wasn't just the alcohol and not the enchantment, the alcohol likely helped turn them from "just pretending in order to get the guys riled up" to "hey, I really like this, let's find an out of the way spot and keep going" but it's very possible that they're now dating. Also the punch didn't make them look like Nanase until after the guys were turned into girls. Ellen and Nanase saw their first kiss, they didn't comment on how the pigtailed girl looked like Nanase at that time.

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4 minutes ago, Scotty said:
31 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

If you mean this page, note that this is after more punch, meaning not only more alcohol but also more enchantment. They probably aren't lesbian, but the enchantment is turning them into Nanases, who IS lesbian.

Dan's commentary on that page suggests it wasn't just the alcohol and not the enchantment, the alcohol likely helped turn them from "just pretending in order to get the guys riled up" to "hey, I really like this, let's find an out of the way spot and keep going" but it's very possible that they're now dating. Also the punch didn't make them look like Nanase until after the guys were turned into girls. Ellen and Nanase saw their first kiss, they didn't comment on how the pigtailed girl looked like Nanase at that time.

Right, didn't re-read the commentary. Still think the enchantment helped. Although yes, at the time of first kiss the punch likely didn't took effect yet. Here, however ... one man already changed on previous page and noone noticed, so the "don't notice anything weird" part was already in full effect.

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49 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

More interesting question is what is Sarah doing there (last panel). I mean, older Sarah?

Perhaps a similar anomaly than Diane and Susan? Older Sarah is also taller, has bigger boobs, and hips. I mean, Older Sarah has hips.  FV1 Sarah Sarah's hips look like MV1 Sarah Sarah's hips. Older Sarah could be a lost older sister of Sarah Sarah whether or not she's from an alternate world. Do we know whether or not Sarah is adopted? No, although the differences between Sarah and Carol could kind of sort of maybe hint at adoption.

Older Sarah's hips also suggest that she might be a mom. I knew a woman in the Navy--in fact, I was her supervisor for awhile--who had very wide hips. And she told me once that before she had a child, she had had hips like a boy's.

An age difference doesn't rule out the same-person-different-universe theory. There are two points in Ellen's Second Life story in Grace's Birthday Party that make it possible: Ellen has memories from her second life that happen more than a year after the time of the birthday party, and Ellen says that Second Life Tedd started out shorter but ended up taller.

I really think Dan just had to make up a bunch of "extra" characters for Family Ties and re-used elements, such as Elijah's hair for one of the Lesbians. But if we all believe really really hard, Older Sarah will turn out to be another Long Lost Sister and we have yet another Sister (roman numeral to be designated later) coming. And Tinkerbell will come back to life.

Also maybe if we bug Dan enough like we maybe did to make Carol Sarah's sister.

Edited by Tom Sewell
#@!$ spelling error!

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5 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

An age difference doesn't rule out the same-person-different-universe theory.

Of course not. And we know that "real" time travel is not possible, so she can't be this universe Sarah ... if the age is real. If it's result of transformation ...

8 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

No, although the differences between Sarah and Carol could kind of sort of maybe hint at adoption.

I don't think so. I think Carol looked more like Sarah before - that's why Elliot didn't recognized her. She had "grow" spurt meanwhile ... possibly for same reason Susan had ...

3 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

I really think Dan just had to make up a bunch of "extra" characters for Familie Ties and re-used elements, such as Elijah's hair for one of the Lesbians.

Obviously. But speculating like this is fun.

3 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

But if we all believe really really hard, Older Sarah will turn out to be another Long Lost Sister and we have yet another Sister (roman numeral to be designated later) coming. And Tinkerbell will come back to life.

Also maybe if we bug Dan enough like we maybe did to make Carol Sarah's sister.

Well, how else can we get to Sister C?

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Of course not. And we know that "real" time travel is not possible, so she can't be this universe Sarah ... if the age is real. If it's result of transformation ...

Not so. The alternate worlds could have their "clocks" set behind or ahead of our own. Or time could pass at different rates--this is a very common feature of stories about mortals visiting the faerie realm. So you can have the appearance of time travel, just not within the same universe.
Although according to relativity theory, time travel is theoretically possible in our universe. Just not possible in the universes inside Dan's skull.

So far.

-------

Piers Anthony's Xanth stories have a very clever idea along these lines: our universe is sort of like a merry-go-round from Xanth's POV. Depending on when one goes from Xanth into our world, one could travel to or from many different eras of human history. Xanth has had many invasions of humans from our world, around every two centuries, with some later ones coming from earlier eras than the previous one.

59 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Well, how else can we get to Sister C?

Before I formulate a properly long-winded response, please clarify: By "C" do you mean "100"? "12" in Base-13 or more? (No need to explain that one to anyone who's played enough Traveller to know what a UPP is.) "C" as referring to "Carol"?

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1 hour ago, Tom Sewell said:

we have yet another Sister (roman numeral to be designated later) coming.

 

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Well, how else can we get to Sister C?

 

5 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Before I formulate a properly long-winded response, please clarify: By "C" do you mean "100"?

This Sewell guy is one who added the "Roman Numeral" qualifier to the original speculation.  Ask him.

Does anyone else think of Roman Numerals like a language you barely know?  I look at the numbers and can translate them into forms with which I am more familiar, and verse visa.  But I can't actually calculate the math with them.  I need to translate them into modern Indo-Arabic decimal digits and then perform the maths.

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14 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Not so. The alternate worlds could have their "clocks" set behind or ahead of our own. Or time could pass at different rates--this is a very common feature of stories about mortals visiting the faerie realm. So you can have the appearance of time travel, just not within the same universe.
Although according to relativity theory, time travel is theoretically possible in our universe. Just not possible in the universes inside Dan's skull.

So far.

Dan did say that because EGS has multiple universes, it could be possible for the cast to visit an alternate reality that's in the 1970's(read commentary).

18 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

efore I formulate a properly long-winded response, please clarify: By "C" do you mean "100"? "12" in Base-13 or more? (No need to explain that one to anyone who's played enough Traveller to know what a UPP is.) "C" as referring to "Carol"?

I was assuming he meant C in HEX, which turns out to be 12 as well so... ::shrugs::

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13 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Of course not. And we know that "real" time travel is not possible, so she can't be this universe Sarah ... if the age is real. If it's result of transformation ...

Not so. The alternate worlds could have their "clocks" set behind or ahead of our own. Or time could pass at different rates--this is a very common feature of stories about mortals visiting the faerie realm. So you can have the appearance of time travel, just not within the same universe.

Exactly. You can't have "real" time travel but can have "fake" one.

13 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Although according to relativity theory, time travel is theoretically possible in our universe. Just not possible in the universes inside Dan's skull.

Yes. Although you need some exotic matter for it.

1 hour ago, Tom Sewell said:

we have yet another Sister (roman numeral to be designated later) coming

15 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Well, how else can we get to Sister C?

Before I formulate a properly long-winded response, please clarify: By "C" do you mean "100"? "12" in Base-13 or more? (No need to explain that one to anyone who's played enough Traveller to know what a UPP is.) "C" as referring to "Carol"?

... I meant 100, yes, although the "C as Carol" was meant as pun alternative. Although it's true that while we had Sister II, we also got Sister 3, so switching the numeral system IS possible.

Just now, Scotty said:

I was assuming he meant C in HEX, which turns out to be 12 as well so... ::shrugs::

It's true that in many other situations, this would be my first interpretation as well.

2 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Does anyone else think of Roman Numerals like a language you barely know?  I look at the numbers and can translate them into forms with which I am more familiar, and verse visa.  But I can't actually calculate the math with them.  I need to translate them into modern Indo-Arabic decimal digits and then perform the maths.

Why do you think Romans didn't do much math? Indo-Arabic decimal digits are MUCH better for computing.

 

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35 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Why do you think Romans didn't do much math? Indo-Arabic decimal digits are MUCH better for computing.

For one thing, a Roman legionary killed Archimedes before he was really finished inventing calculus, and we had to wait until Newton and Leibnitz re-invented it nineteen centuries later.

Do you kids still get taught Roman numerals in grade school? I did. Of course, I'm so old there weren't any Arabic numerals. Back in those days to write numbers so they were harder to read you had to use hieroglyphics. They were a pain to learn, but they had their good points. Look up the hieroglyphics for "9" and "10" sometime.

The Romans went in for practical math, especially subtraction. They subtracted loot from all their neighbors, subtracted freedom from millions of slaves, and subtracted democracy from everyone, including, eventually, themselves. But they were beginning to have a grasp of percentages. "Decimation" comes from Latin. It means "Kill every tenth person."

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