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Scotty

Story: Monday May 1, 2017

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I don't think so though since the beam is invisible and it transforms her and not the target.

I think your logic is flawed here. When Ellen uses her beam to transform someone else, she is not herself transformed. All of Ellen's spells that we know of so far (two, really) affect only one party. As long as Elliot is the other party, I don't think Ellen being the one transformed would negate the conditions as far as we know. Whoever told Magus that Ellen using her magic on Elliot might have deliberately left out the qualifier about her copy magic. Or might not have known Ellen would get a copy spell. Or, of course, may have been wrong about Ellen's magic restoring Magus' body, or lying.

And, yes, Ellen didn't get the copy spell until after the end of Sister II. But whoever set up Magus seems to have predicted his moves pretty well. It might have been Pandora, particularly considering that Pandora seemed to know that Nanase was going to get her guardian spell. Then again, Pandora didn't predict Magus would refuse to make Edward kill Abraham.

One thing that attracts me to the copy spell here is that if Ellen zaps Elliot into a female, or zaps her in one of her many female forms, both of them will be female. I can't see this connecting with Magus getting back his male body.

Unless, of course, Magus has been female all along.

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6 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

I think your logic is flawed here. When Ellen uses her beam to transform someone else, she is not herself transformed. All of Ellen's spells that we know of so far (two, really) affect only one party. As long as Elliot is the other party, I don't think Ellen being the one transformed would negate the conditions as far as we know. Whoever told Magus that Ellen using her magic on Elliot might have deliberately left out the qualifier about her copy magic. Or might not have known Ellen would get a copy spell. Or, of course, may have been wrong about Ellen's magic restoring Magus' body, or lying.

Ellen's FV5 beam transforms others, the copy beam transforms herself, that alone would suggest that the mechanics of the copy beam is different. She refers to it as a beam, but there's no substance to it, the target doesn't feel anything apparently, Brownie doesn't react to getting 'zapped' and I would be very surprised if she remained that calm if Ellen V5 zapped her.

15 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

And, yes, Ellen didn't get the copy spell until after the end of Sister II. But whoever set up Magus seems to have predicted his moves pretty well. It might have been Pandora, particularly considering that Pandora seemed to know that Nanase was going to get her guardian spell. Then again, Pandora didn't predict Magus would refuse to make Edward kill Abraham.

It's obvious that Pandora was the one that tried to guide Magus and told him that the only way to get a physical body again would be to have Elliot get zapped. Between Grace's Birthday and Sister II, we see Pandora meeting with Magus, she states "Twice bid for freedom, twice failed." We know for sure that one attempt was just before Grace's birthday party started, was the other attempt when Tedd originally zapped Elliot, we know Magus amplified Tedd's emotions to get him angry at Elliot's comment and zap him...but because Magus didn't take advantage of Elliot being transformed for the party, it's probably safe to say that the TFG isn't suitable for Magus getting his body back, so it was just the setup to create Ellen, who's FV5 beam is suitable. There's no real indication that an actual attempt to get Ellen to zap Elliot was made though so maybe Magus hoped for a certain set of circumstances that never happened.

As for Pandora predicting things, it's been pretty clear that she's selective about what she wants to predict and what she wants to be surprised by, she didn't want to predict how successful Magus would be in getting a body back, as for predicting Nanase's guardian form, I think she knew Nanase was going to get it the moment Nanase started trying to warn Ellen. Also It's been very recently made clear that Pandora does care about those that are close to Tedd, so helping Nanase would fit that. As for Magus refusing to kill Abraham, I don't think Pandora was in the mood for whether or not she could predict the outcome. We do know that she didn't want to predict who would with the fight between Abraham and Adrian, but once Adrian was badly hurt, she didn't care about predictions, she wanted Abraham killed.

44 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

One thing that attracts me to the copy spell here is that if Ellen zaps Elliot into a female, or zaps her in one of her many female forms, both of them will be female. I can't see this connecting with Magus getting back his male body.

Unless, of course, Magus has been female all along.

The idea is, and Pandora emphasizes it in Sister II, that Magus needs the Dewitchery Diamond to get his body back. So the basic plan is to get Ellen to zap and force Magus into Elliot's body, which would FV5 Elliot, but Magus should be able to get Elliot to morph back to male, then it's just a matter of touching the diamond and having it split Magus from Elliot.

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5 minutes ago, Scotty said:

The idea is, and Pandora emphasizes it in Sister II, that Magus needs the Dewitchery Diamond to get his body back. So the basic plan is to get Ellen to zap and force Magus into Elliot's body, which would FV5 Elliot, but Magus should be able to get Elliot to morph back to male, then it's just a matter of touching the diamond and having it split Magus from Elliot.

Wouldn't that split Magus into a female Magus and a male Magus?

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Just now, Tom Sewell said:

Wouldn't that split Magus into a female Magus and a male Magus?

If Magus succeeds in getting Ellen to zap him into Elliot, it wouldn't kill Elliot's personality and memories (that's what I'm leaning towards due to me not believing that Dan would make this plan potentially fatal to Elliot), Magus and Elliot would be sharing one body and the Diamond would see Magus as a curse and separate him from Elliot.

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2 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Magus and Elliot would be sharing one body and the Diamond would see Magus as a curse and separate him from Elliot.

You are assuming that Magus' personality counts as a curse.

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Just now, Tom Sewell said:

You are assuming that Magus' personality counts as a curse.

I can see Dan taking inspiration from Star Trek 2-3 for this plan, in how Spock planted his katra into McCoy, McCoy started behaving a lot like Spock until they could get Spock's body back and return his katra to it, Elliot would be playing the role of McCoy and Magus would be Spock, the Diamond would serve as both the means of getting Spock's body plus the Vulcan high priest that acted as the conduit for the katra to travel.

Also curse would refer to anything that's not natural to the person, any enchantment is considered a curse to the diamond, Magus would also be considered not natural to Elliot and thus need to be separated.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Also curse would refer to anything that's not natural to the person, any enchantment is considered a curse to the diamond, Magus would also be considered not natural to Elliot and thus need to be separated.

Any enchantment would include beneficial enchantments or harmless ones. This could indeed account for Ellen. It would also imply that Abraham may have murdered other innocent beings created by the dewitchery diamond. Neither or both are necessarily true. 

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4 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Any enchantment would include beneficial enchantments or harmless ones. This could indeed account for Ellen. It would also imply that Abraham may have murdered other innocent beings created by the dewitchery diamond. Neither or both are necessarily true. 

That 'implication' got sort of boldfaced, underlined and chiseled into rock when he came within fractions of a second of murdering Ellen.

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2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
6 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Any enchantment would include beneficial enchantments or harmless ones. This could indeed account for Ellen. It would also imply that Abraham may have murdered other innocent beings created by the dewitchery diamond. Neither or both are necessarily true. 

That 'implication' got sort of boldfaced, underlined and chiseled into rock when he came within fractions of a second of murdering Ellen.

Abraham did believe it was his duty to destroy anything created by the diamond, but his reaction to Ellen suggests that he'd never encountered the curse being a simple transformation like gender change, colour change (skin, hair and/or eyes) or size change. Mind you, it is possible that someone like a thief or murderer used a disguise spell to steal the diamond or kill the at the time owner of the diamond and caused a duplicate to be make, in which case Abraham wouldn't have any issue. Ellen could have just been the first that made Abraham question the nature of the curse.

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10 hours ago, Scotty said:

<snip> Brownie doesn't react to getting 'zapped' and I would be very surprised if she remained that calm if Ellen V5 zapped her.<snip>.

OK, so am I the only one who finds the idea of Ellen V5 zapping Brownie a bit disturbing? I have no idea just what that would do to her, but it feels like that just might not be a great idea. The thing that might save this is Brownies seemingly unlimited capacity for sleep, and the Dunkel family's usual non reaction to anything weird.

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16 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

BTW, I thought the reason why Ellen's zap of not-Tengu didn't work might have been that not-Tengu was male, but her copy spell has never shown a visible beam.

I had assumed - reinforced by nT's impression that Ellen was trying to enchant him - that Ellen was trying to zap him into a less imposing, and probably less capable, female form.

Which probably wouldn't have accomplished much, as (most likely) he could just re-enchant himself. But Ellen didn't know at the time that he was a self-transformed human.

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4 hours ago, Scotty said:

Abraham did believe it was his duty to destroy anything created by the diamond, but his reaction to Ellen suggests that he'd never encountered the curse being a simple transformation like gender change, colour change (skin, hair and/or eyes) or size change. Mind you, it is possible that someone like a thief or murderer used a disguise spell to steal the diamond or kill the at the time owner of the diamond and caused a duplicate to be make, in which case Abraham wouldn't have any issue. Ellen could have just been the first that made Abraham question the nature of the curse.

Abraham was a product of medieval times. Back then the general attitude was that afflictions such as leprosy, madness, childlessness and so forth were God's punishment for some evil or other. Since the only function of the diamond was a flawed removal of spells from persons touching it -- and we know from Nioi that it has a very broad definition of what it sees as a 'curse' -- it becomes all too plausible for me that Abraham has killed one or several beings whose only crime was to be duplicates split off from someone who wished to be free of an unwanted enchantment. Such beings might or might not have been dangerous, but I am willing to lay enormous odds against all of them being innately evil or the victims of an enchantment that made them dangerous to their surroundings.

It would be immensely simple for this not being the case. Imagine someone who just wanted to get rid of a spell that had turned them ugly or afflicted them with a disease or the like. Abraham would still be ready to axe the duplicate.

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20 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Then again, Pandora didn't predict Magus would refuse to make Edward kill Abraham.

Actually, she did. She predicted she couldn't get anyone to kill the kidnapper but tried anyway.

5 hours ago, Don Edwards said:
22 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

BTW, I thought the reason why Ellen's zap of not-Tengu didn't work might have been that not-Tengu was male, but her copy spell has never shown a visible beam.

I had assumed - reinforced by nT's impression that Ellen was trying to enchant him - that Ellen was trying to zap him into a less imposing, and probably less capable, female form.

Which probably wouldn't have accomplished much, as (most likely) he could just re-enchant himself. But Ellen didn't know at the time that he was a self-transformed human.

We don't know parameters of his enchantment OR if it would stack with FV5. If it would turn not-Tengu to human female, he could re-enchant himself and it again may or may not stack. But female monster form will probably be similarly dangerous as male one, in which sense it wouldn't accomplished much long term.

Therefore, I think Ellen was going for short term effect. Remember their tactic was delay. And turning not-Tengu to female could definitely delay him.

5 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
10 hours ago, Scotty said:

Abraham did believe it was his duty to destroy anything created by the diamond, but his reaction to Ellen suggests that he'd never encountered the curse being a simple transformation like gender change, colour change (skin, hair and/or eyes) or size change. Mind you, it is possible that someone like a thief or murderer used a disguise spell to steal the diamond or kill the at the time owner of the diamond and caused a duplicate to be make, in which case Abraham wouldn't have any issue. Ellen could have just been the first that made Abraham question the nature of the curse.

Abraham was a product of medieval times. Back then the general attitude was that afflictions such as leprosy, madness, childlessness and so forth were God's punishment for some evil or other. Since the only function of the diamond was a flawed removal of spells from persons touching it -- and we know from Nioi that it has a very broad definition of what it sees as a 'curse' -- it becomes all too plausible for me that Abraham has killed one or several beings whose only crime was to be duplicates split off from someone who wished to be free of an unwanted enchantment. Such beings might or might not have been dangerous, but I am willing to lay enormous odds against all of them being innately evil or the victims of an enchantment that made them dangerous to their surroundings.

It would be immensely simple for this not being the case. Imagine someone who just wanted to get rid of a spell that had turned them ugly or afflicted them with a disease or the like. Abraham would still be ready to axe the duplicate.

If it was infectious disease, the copy would definitely be dangerous to others, even if not evil. Especially considering the diamond would make even normally noninfectious enchantments infectious. (Who knows, maybe using the diamond on some "ugly" enchantment can CREATE pox epidemic.)

In fact, if Ellen wouldn't totally fail at evil even after snapping and instead of talking about PMS just decided to FV5 half of school, she WOULD be dangerous. Especially if the victims wouldn't know that 1) it's temporary 2) it can be reversed.

Still, the diamond was KNOWN to be flawed - at least the "professionals" knew it. It's possible that the list of duplicates he was killing was very short.

 

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28 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Still, the diamond was KNOWN to be flawed - at least the "professionals" knew it. It's possible that the list of duplicates he was killing was very short.

The problem is that Abraham was killing the copies out of sheer overcompensation. The first use of the diamond resulted in disaster, therefore all uses of it must do so, at least to his mind. And so he swore an oath he was unwilling to break even when he knew it would lead to evil.

However, I am judging Abraham from a modern point of view. I can see your point and from a medieval point of view Abraham might be acting not only sensibly but even commendably. Even so, I personally still feel grave misgivings about what he may have done.

And yes. I am hoping the diamond spent most of its time hidden away and that it only came to the attention of the Main Eight because of Pandora's manipulations. I prefer that to it just drifting around from owner to owner with its possessors being largely ignorant of the dangers it poses.

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11 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Even so, I personally still feel grave misgivings about what he may have done.

Well, I must admit that I might be just optimistic when I think that he wouldn't behave like he did with Ellen if he would be more used to unclear cases.

13 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

And yes. I am hoping the diamond spent most of its time hidden away and that it only came to the attention of the Main Eight because of Pandora's manipulations. I prefer that to it just drifting around from owner to owner with its possessors being largely ignorant of the dangers it poses.

People who don't know about magic would likely not get enchanted. People who know lot about magic would know they need to be careful with it. It's only dangerous around people with little magic and little magic knowledge, and hopefully it wasn't in possession of those often.

... hmmm ... actually, if it WOULD be causing problems often, it would likely be better guarded.

 

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