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The Old Hack

Story Wednesday May 10, 2017

84 posts in this topic

I thought I'd have a lot of insightful things to say on this comic, but I don't. I always *had* to accept how I looked, if it fit me or not. But Elliot doesn't have that as she can switch freely. This comic's kind of blown my mind.

 

Based on the dialogue I guess we can assume Elliot has looked up the meaning of 'transgender' between comics though.

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So, is Elliot really considering that he might be transgender? Well, maybe, but I think it's more consistent with his born-wearing-a-boy-scout-uniform nature that what's actually troubling him so much is whether he should try to help whoever made that post. Despite what Elliot told Tedd about magic not changing, Elliot knows it could change soon. It could be too late to help before very much longer.

And who could help this supposed transgender pleader change sex? Well, Tedd, of course--but also Ellen. Ellen can change any male into a female and back, and it's kind of an easy step to a Friday comic where Elliot asks his sister whether she'd be up for doing this.

 

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Just now, Dabat said:

Based on the dialogue I guess we can assume Elliot has looked up the meaning of 'transgender' between comics though.

Seems that way.

This does feel weird hearing Ellen say "Nor do I want to be, a dude.", on one hand, it makes sense that she's been able to make her own identity and doesn't have any desire to go back to being Elliot. But on the other hand, she's basically decided to not fully participate in any genderswap activities that the group would have like Grace's Birthday, the extent of participation would be zapping the males. I haven't completely counted out Justin and Susan as never wanting to do anything like that again. I also don't buy the "It would be bad if Ellen became male" excuse used as anything but a way to keep the genders even (4 male, 4 female), or that Grace thought it would help get Nanase and Ellen together, Grace could tell there was some attraction between them before she found out Nanase was gay.

And then there's Nanase's desire to have kids some day, Ellen refusing to be male would be problematic if Nanase wanted to go through pregnancy and such.

I get that Ellen might not feel comfortable about it right now, but it just feels wrong for Ellen to never ever want to even temporarily be male.

19 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

And who could help this supposed transgender pleader change sex? Well, Tedd, of course--but also Ellen. Ellen can change any male into a female and back, and it's kind of an easy step to a Friday comic where Elliot asks his sister whether she'd be up for doing this.

If the person was trans female, sure, but if the person is Sam or someone else who's trans male, then Ellen wouldn't be able to help beyond giving Elliot advise on how to handle it.

I think Dan intentionally left out any hints as to whether the person is trans male or trans female, it's easy to assume the person is trans female because Elliot can transform into female forms so the person would believe Elliot might know how to teach others how to do so. But at the same time a trans male person can also think that if Elliot knows how to go from male to female, Elliot might know of a way to go from female to male.

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10 minutes ago, Scotty said:

If the person was trans female, sure, but if the person is Sam or someone else who's trans male, then Ellen wouldn't be able to help beyond giving Elliot advise on how to handle it.

Ellen can't change the sex of anyone who wasn't male to begin with, and I'm sure she'll remind Elliot of this if the discussion goes into possibly helping the mystery e-mailer. And it's possible Elliot has already thought of this. However, Elliot would also want his sister's opinion before making his decision. This could mean not only exposing Elliot's secret identity, but exposing Ellen and/or Tedd.

This situation kind of reminds me of when Nanase was arguing with Ellen about telling Tedd about his mom.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I also don't buy the "It would be bad if Ellen became male" excuse used as anything but a way to keep the genders even (4 male, 4 female),

Two points.

One, the genders are not even and never have been. By now, the only 100% definite male left in the Main Eight is Justin. Tedd is genderfluid. Elliot may well be genderfluid as well, though I suppose it is possible that there is some other form of way of describing Elliot that fits better. As to the rest: Grace is a seyunolu. I am not even sure if human sexual identification applies to them at all, but let us for simplicity's sake assume so for this argument. Grace will occasionally spend time as male but not even nearly as much as Elliot has, and seemingly desires to continue to do. Susan does not seem to have any interest in being male. Ellen is female and always has been. Nanase was only male one time, which was during the birthday party arc. That leaves only Sarah as someone who has shown much interest in being male and even this is mostly mentioned in exposition or flashbacks. That leaves a final score of one male, one genderfluid, one probable genderfluid, one possible genderfluid but otherwise female, and four females. And even if we ignore the genderfluidity/other options, we would still only have three males and five females.

Two, Dan has repeatedly stated in public posts as well as one time in a private communication with me that he does not feel comfortable at having Ellen be male. Some may call that a mere authorial quirk but given that these stories originate in Dan's mind I feel that it should be respected. (If you wonder when I was exchanging mail with Dan, it was back when he made this image as a Patreon commission. We were discussing a good way to make the long-desired All Male Wallpaper and Dan told me that he still was having trouble swallowing mEllen, so I told him to just make Ellen the referee and not worry about it.)

Dan also says that he is not sure what is behind this concern of his but that he has never been able to overcome it. I do not wish to armchair analyse him, so I have chosen to simply respect it instead.

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I wonder if and/or when Dan will open the Can Of Worms that is "Is Ellen comfortable as a girl because Elliot is gender fluid?"

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Elliot's questions from the previous comic are still unanswered.  But any lingering doubts about Ellen's identity seem to be resolved.

Darn it.  Why does this strip end on such a serious note?  This would be a great place for Ellen to start singing "I Enjoy Being A Girl".

 

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3 hours ago, Scotty said:

And then there's Nanase's desire to have kids some day, Ellen refusing to be male would be problematic if Nanase wanted to go through pregnancy and such.

I get that Ellen might not feel comfortable about it right now, but it just feels wrong for Ellen to never ever want to even temporarily be male.

I dunno, this seems like a rather passionate response to something that to my perspective doesn't matter so much. These characters may run into that wall, but there are ways around it. With Nanase being lesbian, I don't see Ellen refusing to be male as "problematic" in this context. Realistically, they would be considering adoption or surrogacy if magic wasn't on the table, and magic doesn't mean these options are off the table either. And it's not like Ellen doesn't have a twin who could be willing to donate material for IVF to keep it familial. 

How comfortable would Nanase actually be if mEllen tried to get intimate with her anyhow? And why make Ellen go through it if she doesn't want to just to get genetic material that is effectively Elliot's (assuming IVF with mEllen)? Honestly, those things feel more problematic to me.

 

As an aside: what is Elliot thinking? I'm intrigued, but would rather not wade into that speculation and will just let the chips fall where they will.

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3 hours ago, Scotty said:

Seems that way.

This does feel weird hearing Ellen say "Nor do I want to be, a dude.", on one hand, it makes sense that she's been able to make her own identity and doesn't have any desire to go back to being Elliot. But on the other hand, she's basically decided to not fully participate in any genderswap activities that the group would have like Grace's Birthday, the extent of participation would be zapping the males.

....

And then there's Nanase's desire to have kids some day, Ellen refusing to be male would be problematic if Nanase wanted to go through pregnancy and such.

First, there's a difference between not wanting to be male, and not being willing to be male for specific reasons or events.

Second, specifically on the issue of reproduction, Ellen and Elliot are as close to identical twins as it's possible to be while still being different sexes (something that happens naturally approximately once in every 246 sets of fraternal twins). If Ellen were MV1'd you'd probably get Elliot. I suspect that at some point in the future Ellen and Nanase will take a long vacation together to somewhere they won't need ID, and Ellen will come back pregnant, then as soon as they get back Nanase will get artificially inseminated with Elliot as the sperm donor.

(I am SO glad I won't be living with them when they are both pregnant.)

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

Two points.

One, the genders are not even and never have been. By now, the only 100% definite male left in the Main Eight is Justin. Tedd is genderfluid. Elliot may well be genderfluid as well, though I suppose it is possible that there is some other form of way of describing Elliot that fits better.

At this point I think Elliot is gender-neutral. That is, he's perfectly comfortable with and enjoys being male, and never has a strong desire to be female (having a strong desire for some benefit that incidentally, in his case, comes with a female form - such as flying - is different, as is a desire to stay with his established daily rituals)... and then when he IS female, is perfectly comfortable with and enjoys being female and never has a strong desire to be male.

Or he could be agender, which isn't quite the same thing. It would lack the "and enjoys" part - in place of that is a "doesn't give a sh** about" part.

My theory is that most people who are gender-neutral or agender simply assume they are cisgender - they never have a noticeable internal gender conflict, so it takes some outside event or circumstance to cause them to engage in introspection regarding their gender identity... and Elliot is known to be resistant to introspection.

(For that matter, most people who are cisgender probably just assume so, without engaging in the introspection that would confirm it.)

(And this extends to people who are mildly trans or fluid. I'm mildly fluid - if it weren't for EGS and Rain I probably would never have realized it. I've come to suspect that my wife is mildly trans - and she agrees that my reasons for suspecting that are at least plausible.)

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While I have no desire to be with guys as a guy, I have imagined being with a guy if I could transform into a sexy girl. What does that make me?

 

 I am being serious here, if there is a term for it I would like to know.

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5 minutes ago, animalia said:

While I have no desire to be with guys as a guy, I have imagined being with a guy if I could transform into a sexy girl. What does that make me?

 

 I am being serious here, if there is a term for it I would like to know.

I am unaware of one but I would be ASTOUNDED if you were the only one. And the term may well exist and probably does.

 

36 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

My theory is that most people who are gender-neutral or agender simply assume they are cisgender - they never have a noticeable internal gender conflict, so it takes some outside event or circumstance to cause them to engage in introspection regarding their gender identity... and Elliot is known to be resistant to introspection.

(For that matter, most people who are cisgender probably just assume so, without engaging in the introspection that would confirm it.)

(And this extends to people who are mildly trans or fluid. I'm mildly fluid - if it weren't for EGS and Rain I probably would never have realized it. I've come to suspect that my wife is mildly trans - and she agrees that my reasons for suspecting that are at least plausible.)

On top of this, add in the pressure to be 'normal'. It would not only discourage such individuals from discussing the matter but would make them prefer to not even think of it as many people are reluctant to think of themselves as 'not normal.' This pressure is not to be underestimated as it keeps many fully LGBTQIA* people from ever admitting what they are to themselves. *sigh*

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The functions of the Diamond are to be desired more.

Stop with the Duck, we have not seen him after he went to Malibu.

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2 hours ago, animalia said:

While I have no desire to be with guys as a guy, I have imagined being with a guy if I could transform into a sexy girl. What does that make me?

 

 I am being serious here, if there is a term for it I would like to know.

For whatever it's worth, none of this stuff is a simply on/off yes/no sort of thing.  Kinsey recognized that with his 7-point scale of sexual orientation.  and the detail keeps piling up from there.

Think of it more as a palette of colors.  You might be painted with just a little bit of transgender.

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

I am unaware of one but I would be ASTOUNDED if you were the only one. And the term may well exist and probably does.

Animalia is not the only one even on this forum.  I am similar.  I think I might have just a dab of transgender to myself as well.

I identify male.  I am comfortable in a male body and generally think and act as a cisgender male.  It's who I am.  But as a writer, I gravitate to female characters.  Playing that late-great MMO City of Heroes, 70-80% of my characters were female.  Their hearts and minds came from this female voice that is also a part of me but the male part of me built their bodies and dressed them.  (Which isn't as degrading as it might first sound.  My natural taste in "sexy-awesome" about matches what Dan posts to the EGS website.  His Patreon art is a bit much sometimes)

While I don't think I'd be interested in male attention if I were suddenly a sexy girl, if I were split into a set of Ellen/Elliot twins, the temptation to experiment would be hard for us to resist.

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

On top of this, add in the pressure to be 'normal'. It would not only discourage such individuals from discussing the matter but would make them prefer to not even think of it as many people are reluctant to think of themselves as 'not normal.' This pressure is not to be underestimated as it keeps many fully LGBTQIA* people from ever admitting what they are to themselves. *sigh*

It's not just sexuality-related stuff.  It's anything not-normal.  I had a college mentor whose Ph.D disseration was on how humans treat both positive and negative "deviants" (deviations from the normal) the same way.  Better or worse, smarter or dumber, standing out in a crowd for any reason attracts fire.

These forums have helped me cautiously open the door and peer into the corners of my psyche and understand and accept what I see.  I hope Animalia gets the same out of it.

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3 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Two points.

One, the genders are not even and never have been. By now, the only 100% definite male left in the Main Eight is Justin. Tedd is genderfluid. Elliot may well be genderfluid as well, though I suppose it is possible that there is some other form of way of describing Elliot that fits better. As to the rest: Grace is a seyunolu. I am not even sure if human sexual identification applies to them at all, but let us for simplicity's sake assume so for this argument. Grace will occasionally spend time as male but not even nearly as much as Elliot has, and seemingly desires to continue to do. Susan does not seem to have any interest in being male. Ellen is female and always has been. Nanase was only male one time, which was during the birthday party arc. That leaves only Sarah as someone who has shown much interest in being male and even this is mostly mentioned in exposition or flashbacks. That leaves a final score of one male, one genderfluid, one probable genderfluid, one possible genderfluid but otherwise female, and four females. And even if we ignore the genderfluidity/other options, we would still only have three males and five females.

Two, Dan has repeatedly stated in public posts as well as one time in a private communication with me that he does not feel comfortable at having Ellen be male. Some may call that a mere authorial quirk but given that these stories originate in Dan's mind I feel that it should be respected. (If you wonder when I was exchanging mail with Dan, it was back when he made this image as a Patreon commission. We were discussing a good way to make the long-desired All Male Wallpaper and Dan told me that he still was having trouble swallowing mEllen, so I told him to just make Ellen the referee and not worry about it.)

Dan also says that he is not sure what is behind this concern of his but that he has never been able to overcome it. I do not wish to armchair analyse him, so I have chosen to simply respect it instead.

Oh I fully understand Dan's stance on the subject, he feels weird about putting Ellen in those kinds of situations just like I feel weird about her not being able to be in those situations.

I do respect Dan, I won't push him to do something he's not comfortable with, but I can still hope that he's able to come to terms with it or say with certainty that this is how it's going to be. At this time, I feel Ellen being uncomfortable with it comes from Dan being uncomfortable with it, so I've chosen to believe that maybe one day Dan might change his mind about it. It wouldn't be the first time for it either, IIRC Dan was initially uncertain about doing the patreon pinups, he's also mentioned a few times (and very recently) that he's unsure if he'll ever do more adult pinups for patrons, but he does have a tumblr account on standby in case he ever decides "what the heck, I'm doing it".

Basically, I don't recall seeing a "never" in regards to Ellen ever being male for any reason, and that's the basis of my opinion, if Dan comes out and says "Sorry, I've decided she'll never do it." then I'll have to accept that.

3 hours ago, BurntAsh said:

I dunno, this seems like a rather passionate response to something that to my perspective doesn't matter so much. These characters may run into that wall, but there are ways around it. With Nanase being lesbian, I don't see Ellen refusing to be male as "problematic" in this context. Realistically, they would be considering adoption or surrogacy if magic wasn't on the table, and magic doesn't mean these options are off the table either. And it's not like Ellen doesn't have a twin who could be willing to donate material for IVF to keep it familial. 

How comfortable would Nanase actually be if mEllen tried to get intimate with her anyhow? And why make Ellen go through it if she doesn't want to just to get genetic material that is effectively Elliot's (assuming IVF with mEllen)? Honestly, those things feel more problematic to me.

The last time I brought up the subject, I proposed that Ellen and Nanase would loved each other so much that they could stand either of them being male for a night in order to have kids, and maybe even take turns if they decide to have a second or third child. When Nanase first mentioned wanting to have kids someday, Ellen suggested that Tedd might be able to help, so immediately one would think that the TFG would be involved, so then it's a matter of who would use it.

For having Elliot be a sperm donor, it is a possibility, but from a psychological stand point, Ellen would have to accept the fact that Elliot is the father, and while there's the argument that Ellen was Elliot at one time, Ellen's spent so much time convincing people that even though she had Elliot's memories, she's not Elliot. I don't expect her be like "technically I'm still the 'father' because we were one person once". I dunno, it feels un-Ellen-like to have to ask Elliot for help with that, and what kind of reaction do you think Elliot would have, considering his stance on early pregnancy? The again, Ellen may have kept that stance as well it may be years (in comic) before her and Nanase decide they're ready for kids, and it's possible Dan may not run the comic that long (unless he does more large time skips) so we may never find out.

 

 

 

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This more properly belongs in the May 8th thread.. but it's locked. I just keep thinking how easily Elliot could introduce this person to Tedd, who could not only TF them but then set it as their default form, And Verres could even craft them a new legal identity. (if only it was that easy rl!) The real payoff of seeing this happen however, would be Tedd, Verres, and Elliot in the same room forced to have this whole awkward conversation!

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26 minutes ago, Samjack13 said:

This more properly belongs in the May 8th thread.. but it's locked. I just keep thinking how easily Elliot could introduce this person to Tedd, who could not only TF them but then set it as their default form, And Verres could even craft them a new legal identity. (if only it was that easy rl!) The real payoff of seeing this happen however, would be Tedd, Verres, and Elliot in the same room forced to have this whole awkward conversation!

I could wish for that to happen. It might well force the issues between Tedd and Mr. Verres out in the open and finally start Mr. Verres down a road where he actually tried to understand Tedd rather than just think there was something wrong with him.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

The last time I brought up the subject, I proposed that Ellen and Nanase would loved each other so much that they could stand either of them being male for a night in order to have kids, and maybe even take turns if they decide to have a second or third child. When Nanase first mentioned wanting to have kids someday, Ellen suggested that Tedd might be able to help, so immediately one would think that the TFG would be involved, so then it's a matter of who would use it.

For having Elliot be a sperm donor, it is a possibility, but from a psychological stand point, Ellen would have to accept the fact that Elliot is the father, and while there's the argument that Ellen was Elliot at one time, Ellen's spent so much time convincing people that even though she had Elliot's memories, she's not Elliot. I don't expect her be like "technically I'm still the 'father' because we were one person once". I dunno, it feels un-Ellen-like to have to ask Elliot for help with that, and what kind of reaction do you think Elliot would have, considering his stance on early pregnancy? The again, Ellen may have kept that stance as well it may be years (in comic) before her and Nanase decide they're ready for kids, and it's possible Dan may not run the comic that long (unless he does more large time skips) so we may never find out.

Yeah, odds are we won't find out. But at the end of the day, these sorts of questions are things real people do deal with. Surrogacy and adoption are real things that people who can't have children between the two of them do. Either because of fertility issues, or other reasons that prevent conception through the usual means. Sure, there was a joke around Tedd, but I'd be somewhat cautious to read too much into a punchline. Especially when Ellen talks about her issues with "man on Ellen loving", and we already know Nanase just doesn't find men attractive period despite trying to date Elliot. I'm still finding it rather problematic in my mind the idea that they can just dismiss all this in order to conceive. It's not grounded in rational or realistic expectations of people, or characters.

Ellen's thoughts on parentage are relevant, but again this splices nicely into actual issues that real couples have. There's good models we can use to see how it plays out. And there, it isn't completely unheard of to use donations of material from family members or friends to help conceive using artificial insemination. I bring up Elliot since he is family, and by the time this sort of stuff would play out, they are more likely going to be adults about it, than not. Not because it makes the child feel more like Ellen's. Although it would certainly look more like Ellen's than if an anonymous donor was used. 

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15 minutes ago, Samjack13 said:

who could not only TF them but then set it as their default form

Tedd doesn't currently have a way to set other people's default forms, just his own, he did say that he could probably make a wand that can set the default form of others, but it seemed like the idea of it scared him, on one hand, I'm sure he'd want to jump at the chance to help the person, but he's probably worried that such wands could be abused like Edward warned about, the comment about it being "kinda nightmarish" might have been the realization of how easy it could be to make a wand that can turn people into monsters or something.

Learning about magic changing if too many people know about it would also affect his willingness to help. It's one thing if Magic ends up changing due to something beyond Tedd's control, but not too long ago, Tedd must have felt like he was really close to causing it himself. Even though Elliot said that Tedd shouldn't give up and even try to force a compromise, Tedd's apparently taken a "wait and see what happens" stance for the moment, if magic changes he'll figure out what to do next. If magic doesn't change though... that's the tricky bit, how long is Tedd willing to wait to see if it's safe or not? Us readers have been given the impression that we'll find out if whatever happens "Friday" causes magic to change, but Tedd doesn't know that, and if magic doesn't change after "Friday", what the? Well Tedd does know that an Immortal vowed to help Sarah learn magic so he can always ask Sarah to ask, which we can already guess 'Box's' response to that as we already know that Pandora is trying to help Tedd by learning what he is. I'd imagine that regardless of magic change or not, Pandora's going appear in front of Tedd and tell him what he needs to know.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

The last time I brought up the subject, I proposed that Ellen and Nanase would loved each other so much that they could stand either of them being male for a night in order to have kids, and maybe even take turns if they decide to have a second or third child. When Nanase first mentioned wanting to have kids someday, Ellen suggested that Tedd might be able to help, so immediately one would think that the TFG would be involved, so then it's a matter of who would use it.

For having Elliot be a sperm donor, it is a possibility, but from a psychological stand point, Ellen would have to accept the fact that Elliot is the father, and while there's the argument that Ellen was Elliot at one time, Ellen's spent so much time convincing people that even though she had Elliot's memories, she's not Elliot. I don't expect her be like "technically I'm still the 'father' because we were one person once". I dunno, it feels un-Ellen-like to have to ask Elliot for help with that, and what kind of reaction do you think Elliot would have, considering his stance on early pregnancy? The again, Ellen may have kept that stance as well it may be years (in comic) before her and Nanase decide they're ready for kids, and it's possible Dan may not run the comic that long (unless he does more large time skips) so we may never find out.

There might also be ways with magic to have a kid without one of them being male.  One of them could get a spell that either causes her to be pregnant or to impregnate someone else (in a way, a spell that can make someone pregnant could be seen as an extension of "make more female"), or allows them to create a baby directly (I mean, it's possible one of them could transform into a baby Ellen-Nanase hybrid and the touch the diamond...).

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I'm wondering if where we're going is the notion, which I've heard before (I think repeated before as well), that magical changes such as these are body and mind, and therefore wouldn't help a trans person for the same reason they don't make the Dunkels dysphoric - the only reason they help Tedd is because Tedd's mind is fluid regardless of what enchantments they're under.

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5 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

On top of this, add in the pressure to be 'normal'. It would not only discourage such individuals from discussing the matter but would make them prefer to not even think of it as many people are reluctant to think of themselves as 'not normal.' This pressure is not to be underestimated as it keeps many fully LGBTQIA* people from ever admitting what they are to themselves. *sigh*

I can get this. As I don't talk about my TGish feelings much. I'd like to say that it is because the kind of technology necessary to attempt such a feat does not exist and therefore any attempt do such a feat would be moot. However, if that was really the case there would still be no need for me to feel uneasy about it.

Also keep in mind all of this is coming from someone who takes "weird" as a compliment, has wanted to try deep fried tarantulas ever since seeing them on a food and travel show and will gladly mention said previous detail to anyone I can get to listen. Clearly the pressure to be normal does not have a strong hold over me and yet this particular issue STILL got to me. Make of this what you will.

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9 minutes ago, BurntAsh said:

Sure, there was a joke around Tedd, but I'd be somewhat cautious to read too much into a punchline.

I didn't think there was a joke there, Ellen seemed pretty serious about suggesting Tedd helping and Nanase seemed to take it seriously, though yes she was a little squeamish about Tedd being involved, but all Tedd would have to is provide access to the TFG, it's not like he has to supervise.

15 minutes ago, BurntAsh said:

Yeah, being with a guy didn't feel right with her, but she still considers herself to be somewhat bisexual, bisexual homo-romantic to be exact. Ellen may have dreaded seeing male Nanase at the party, but didn't seem to be sickened by either. Ellen cares about Nanase so I don't think her brain's going to melt down over "But it's a guy! But it's Nanase! But it's a guy! But it's Nanase!"

19 minutes ago, chridd said:

There might also be ways with magic to have a kid without one of them being male.  One of them could get a spell that either causes her to be pregnant or to impregnate someone else (in a way, a spell that can make someone pregnant could be seen as an extension of "make more female"), or allows them to create a baby directly (I mean, it's possible one of them could transform into a baby Ellen-Nanase hybrid and the touch the diamond...).

I did also propose the idea that Grace could make an Uryoum egg that Nanase and Ellen can use, that way neither of them need to use a male form. This would be the easiest and most likely solution.

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9 hours ago, Scotty said:
11 hours ago, Dabat said:

Based on the dialogue I guess we can assume Elliot has looked up the meaning of 'transgender' between comics though.

Seems that way.

And apparently, it's harder in EGS than in our universe. Or maybe it's as hard in EGS as it WAS in our universe when Dan was starting with the comics.

9 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

And who could help this supposed transgender pleader change sex? Well, Tedd, of course--but also Ellen. Ellen can change any male into a female and back

But only temporary.

7 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

One, the genders are not even and never have been. By now, the only 100% definite male left in the Main Eight is Justin.

Well, the main eight might not stay main eight ...

6 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

I suspect that at some point in the future Ellen and Nanase will take a long vacation together to somewhere they won't need ID, and Ellen will come back pregnant, then as soon as they get back Nanase will get artificially inseminated with Elliot as the sperm donor.

Could happen, but note that Uryuom egg is still an option - either Grace's or maybe using Grace's watches would allow them to make one themselves.

6 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

having a strong desire for some benefit that incidentally, in his case, comes with a female form - such as flying - is different

Or having lots of energy and can-do spirit. Or being goth and sexy.

5 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

On top of this, add in the pressure to be 'normal'. It would not only discourage such individuals from discussing the matter but would make them prefer to not even think of it as many people are reluctant to think of themselves as 'not normal.' This pressure is not to be underestimated as it keeps many fully LGBTQIA* people from ever admitting what they are to themselves. *sigh*

It may be pressure, or it may be just laziness/inertia. It requires LOT of introspection to realize you are not completely cis (and heterosexual) if you MOSTLY are.

5 hours ago, animalia said:

While I have no desire to be with guys as a guy, I have imagined being with a guy if I could transform into a sexy girl. What does that make me?

Having good imagination? Or, to people who don't want to understand, pervert. (Ok, I imagined that as well, although I'm not sure if I would ever get such idea without EGS ... I'm not sure where is the line between just thinking about it and feel it being ok strong enough to say something about gender identity. If there is ANY such line ... maybe isn't.)

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Basically, I don't recall seeing a "never" in regards to Ellen ever being male for any reason

I wouldn't accept "never" as anything stronger than "not in near future" anyway. People in general are using "never" too often, so I can always hope they eventually change mind.

1 hour ago, Samjack13 said:

And Verres could even craft them a new legal identity. (if only it was that easy rl!)

I suspect he can't do that anymore - at least officially, he can ask someone who can of course.

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:
1 hour ago, Samjack13 said:

The real payoff of seeing this happen however, would be Tedd, Verres, and Elliot in the same room forced to have this whole awkward conversation!

I could wish for that to happen. It might well force the issues between Tedd and Mr. Verres out in the open and finally start Mr. Verres down a road where he actually tried to understand Tedd rather than just think there was something wrong with him.

I would also like to see this, but I suspect Verres would object on ground of secrecy. On the other hand, even just TALKING about this could force the issues in the open.

44 minutes ago, BurntAsh said:

Especially when Ellen talks about her issues with "man on Ellen loving", and we already know Nanase just doesn't find men attractive period despite trying to date Elliot. I'm still finding it rather problematic in my mind the idea that they can just dismiss all this in order to conceive.

Considering FV5 already contain amplified feelings of lust, I think they can overcame those problems if they decide. I mean, it wouldn't be good idea to do something like this just for fun, but as a way to have own child they may decide it's worth it.

42 minutes ago, chridd said:

There might also be ways with magic to have a kid without one of them being male.  One of them could get a spell that either causes her to be pregnant or to impregnate someone else (in a way, a spell that can make someone pregnant could be seen as an extension of "make more female"), or allows them to create a baby directly (I mean, it's possible one of them could transform into a baby Ellen-Nanase hybrid and the touch the diamond...).

There is also option of turning into hermaphrodite (with magic or TF gun), but I'm not sure if it would really help ...

26 minutes ago, WR...S said:

I'm wondering if where we're going is the notion, which I've heard before (I think repeated before as well), that magical changes such as these are body and mind, and therefore wouldn't help a trans person for the same reason they don't make the Dunkels dysphoric - the only reason they help Tedd is because Tedd's mind is fluid regardless of what enchantments they're under.

Think about how the TF gun makes heterosexual bisexual but homosexual heterosexual. It could still help trans person and yet not make Dunkels dysphoric.

 

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54 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Yeah, being with a guy didn't feel right with her, but she still considers herself to be somewhat bisexual, bisexual homo-romantic to be exact. Ellen may have dreaded seeing male Nanase at the party, but didn't seem to be sickened by either. Ellen cares about Nanase so I don't think her brain's going to melt down over "But it's a guy! But it's Nanase! But it's a guy! But it's Nanase!"

I did also propose the idea that Grace could make an Uryoum egg that Nanase and Ellen can use, that way neither of them need to use a male form. This would be the easiest and most likely solution.

The egg idea, that would work.

Her brain might not melt down, but it doesn't mean she'll be comfortable with it. And that's where it starts stretching believability with me, especially the idea of Nanase + mEllen. Seeing your partner as a different sex is different than having sex with them as a different sex. I've seen the mess that comes out of similar conversations about relationships with trans people to know how these feelings exist. But in general, the whole idea strikes me as a bit heteronormative, when they've got plenty of options. So talking about Ellen's comments feeling wrong for the sake of procreation rubs me the wrong way as it strikes a more real nerve. 

1 hour ago, WR...S said:

I'm wondering if where we're going is the notion, which I've heard before (I think repeated before as well), that magical changes such as these are body and mind, and therefore wouldn't help a trans person for the same reason they don't make the Dunkels dysphoric - the only reason they help Tedd is because Tedd's mind is fluid regardless of what enchantments they're under.

Eh, it depends on what the magic changes. Does it "set a value" or "flip a value"? Because you get different results:

Set: male body, female identity -> female body, female identity

Flip: male body, female identity -> female body, male identity

In the former, you would remove the dysphoria by making the two align. In the latter, not so much. But I think the easy answer is that it more likely does the former. Because with the former, you are applying a known template to whatever you have, which sounds a lot like how the TF gun has been explained in the past. Kinda like how hkmaly puts it. 

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