Story Wednesday May 10, 2017

[Scotty 1,061]

28 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I did also propose the idea that Grace could make an Uryoum egg that Nanase and Ellen can use, that way neither of them need to use a male form. This would be the easiest and most likely solution.

Actually I feel like this comment might make my previous statements irrelevant. I consider the Uyuom egg to be a valid solution, but I wouldn't consider it a solution to whether or not Ellen can handle being a guy temporarily or being with mNanase. If they do go the egg route, I'd like for there to be a story around it that explains why which would include why Ellen couldn't go through with the TFG method, maybe it's crippling anxiety over a repeat of what happen between second life Ellen and Archie, maybe she just made a promise to herself not to undermine what Elliot's been going through (something she might have decided after their awakening). Maybe Grace was right and Ellen being a guy again would be very bad. I dunno, this kinda situation seems like it'd be a good way to kill 2 birds with one stone.

7 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

And apparently, it's harder in EGS than in our universe. Or maybe it's as hard in EGS as it WAS in our universe when Dan was starting with the comics.

I don't think the definition of transgender has changed any in the last 15 or so years, of course media attention and politics certainly have, and that's likely had more of an impact on Dan. It's one thing to know something exists, but another to see how people react to it. It would be easy for Tedd and Elliot to look up transgender and they'd be like "huh, ok, cool" but then you have the case of the person messaging Elliot with a plea for help and it's now "huh......ok......" and it's probably bringing up how he felt about learning Nanase was gay, or learning about Justin being outted and now Elliot's like "what do I do? This person just confided in me, I wish I could help, but that would mean telling someone, and this person doesn't want me telling anyone!"

23 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Considering FV5 already contain amplified feelings of lust, I think they can overcame those problems if they decide. I mean, it wouldn't be good idea to do something like this just for fun, but as a way to have own child they may decide it's worth it.

Ellen's libido is higher than usual as she normally is, maybe zapping herself might kick it into "I don't care if Nanase's a guy right now!" mode.

34 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

There is also option of turning into hermaphrodite (with magic or TF gun), but I'm not sure if it would really help ...

I considered this a possibility as well, while we may never find out what Ellen and Nanase do beyond kissing and touching, the use of various toys is possible, including wearable ones, so if a form could be programed where only the important bits are changed but the rest of the body remains the same, it may be enough.

 

[Scotty 1,061]

9 minutes ago, BurntAsh said:

Her brain might not melt down, but it doesn't mean she'll be comfortable with it. And that's where it starts stretching believability with me, especially the idea of Nanase + mEllen. Seeing your partner as a different sex is different than having sex with them as a different sex. I've seen the mess that comes out of similar conversations about relationships with trans people to know how these feelings exist. But in general, the whole idea strikes me as a bit heteronormative, when they've got plenty of options. So talking about Ellen's comments feeling wrong for the sake of procreation rubs me the wrong way as it strikes a more real nerve. 

I won't argue with that. Maybe I'm just of the opinion that "If you really care about someone enough, you'd do anything to ensure their happiness" and maybe that's too idealistic, but I can't help it, I want people to be happy.

[Ran-san 5]

7 hours ago, animalia said:

While I have no desire to be with guys as a guy, I have imagined being with a guy if I could transform into a sexy girl. What does that make me?

 

 I am being serious here, if there is a term for it I would like to know.

I don't know if there's a term either, but you are definitely not alone. I'm the same way, but in my case it's more "If I was to suddenly somehow become fully female, then for me to feel comfortable, my life partner would have to be male."

It's very hard for me to describe some of these terms as we simply don't have the terms for them. We used to have two gender identities (male and female) and four sexual identities (hetero, homo, bi, and a). Then "trans" got added into the mix on both sides, and gender fluidity (which doesn't have a nice greek prefix, so already making things tough), so now it's a veritable 31 flavors of typecasting. And I believe some of the terms we use are wrong.

I consider myself heterosexual. I desire a mate of the opposite gender identity to my own. Now "opposite" may no longer be the correct term for it, but I don't have a better so bear with me. While I am not homophobic, and have no issues with others being in a homosexual relationship, I find the thought of myself personally in such a relationship nauseating. It is simply not my thing.

I am also fairly gender fluid. So, as I lie awake at night, I wonder what my life would be like if I were female, either retroactively, or via transformation (Transgender Ray, wish, Jusenkyo, etc) and what I would do. The first thing I realized is that the same rules govern me. I've never been one to have the "lesbians are hot" mentality...it never interested me. I realized that the thought of myself personally in a lesbian relationship also disgusted me. Again, no issues with other people in such relationships, but it's just...not my thing. So with that thought, I imagined myself as a girl in a relationship with a guy, and that excited me. It felt right...as right as guy me in a relationship with a girl. So, I thus consider myself a "true" or "full" (take your pick) heterosexual.

Finally, my gender fluidity has a male leaning.  I recognize that I am physically male, and do not seek to actively correct that.

And fortunately for me, I have a (very understanding) girlfriend.

So that's me. A male-leaning gender-fluid full-heterosexual.

There! I think I found a label! Give me enough time to ramble on long enough, and I can eventually find anything!

[chridd 31]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

There is also option of turning into hermaphrodite (with magic or TF gun), but I'm not sure if it would really help ...

I'm not sure why hermaphrodite in particular, but male genitals + otherwise female would almost certainly be possible.  (I guess with magic it would be possible to make a hermaphroditic human... would a lesbian be more comfortable having sex with someone with both genitals than someone with male genitals?  As an asexual virgin I honestly don't know the answer to that...)

20 minutes ago, BurntAsh said:

Eh, it depends on what the magic changes. Does it "set a value" or "flip a value"? Because you get different results:

Set: male body, female identity -> female body, female identity

Flip: male body, female identity -> female body, male identity

In the former, you would remove the dysphoria by making the two align. In the latter, not so much. But I think the easy answer is that it more likely does the former. Because with the former, you are applying a known template to whatever you have, which sounds a lot like how the TF gun has been explained in the past. Kinda like how hkmaly puts it. 

I don't think "flip" is likely, given that nothing we've seen so far involves flipping (unless one takes heterosexual-vs.-homosexual to be more basic than androsexual-vs.-gynesexual...*).  "Set" or just not modifying gender identity at all would be more likely (or something in between, where it partially modifies gender identity or depends on how strong the person's gender identity is or something), and both would help a trans person.

* Given animalia's comment and some things I read on another site (at least one genderfluid person said they feel gay no matter what their gender), I wonder if which of these is more basic depends on the person... and if so are impossible-to-satisfy combinations like heterosexual+gynesexual+female identity possible?

[hkmaly 490]

53 minutes ago, BurntAsh said:

2 hours ago, WR...S said:

I'm wondering if where we're going is the notion, which I've heard before (I think repeated before as well), that magical changes such as these are body and mind, and therefore wouldn't help a trans person for the same reason they don't make the Dunkels dysphoric - the only reason they help Tedd is because Tedd's mind is fluid regardless of what enchantments they're under.

Eh, it depends on what the magic changes. Does it "set a value" or "flip a value"? Because you get different results:

Set: male body, female identity -> female body, female identity

Flip: male body, female identity -> female body, male identity

In the former, you would remove the dysphoria by making the two align. In the latter, not so much. But I think the easy answer is that it more likely does the former. Because with the former, you are applying a known template to whatever you have, which sounds a lot like how the TF gun has been explained in the past. Kinda like how hkmaly puts it. 

Alternatively, if it would follow exactly what the TF gun does with sexuality, it will make cisgender people gender-meh by adding the "being ok with being spell's target gender" trait.

If you look at it from the "this is likely not your last transformation" angle, anything except bisexual gender-meh will be suboptimal.

(Note: gender fluid = your gender identity changes in time ; agender = you don't have any ; gender-meh = you are ok with what you are no matter what it is)

53 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I consider the Uyuom egg to be a valid solution, but I wouldn't consider it a solution to whether or not Ellen can handle being a guy temporarily or being with mNanase. If they do go the egg route, I'd like for there to be a story around it that explains why which would include why Ellen couldn't go through with the TFG method

I would consider "story around" almost too much ... but yes I would expect that if they go the egg way, they will have SOME answer to why not the TF gun solution (and tell us).

53 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I don't think the definition of transgender has changed any in the last 15 or so years, of course media attention and politics certainly have, and that's likely had more of an impact on Dan. It's one thing to know something exists, but another to see how people react to it.

The definition likely didn't, but what changed is how "popular" it is - the "Transgender" page on wikipedia was CREATED in 2001 and "Gender fluid" is STILL missing. You can certainly find the definition if you search specifically for it, but Dan is example that you could totally miss it even if it's something which would interest you.

53 minutes ago, Scotty said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Considering FV5 already contain amplified feelings of lust, I think they can overcame those problems if they decide. I mean, it wouldn't be good idea to do something like this just for fun, but as a way to have own child they may decide it's worth it.

Ellen's libido is higher than usual as she normally is, maybe zapping herself might kick it into "I don't care if Nanase's a guy right now!" mode.

Exactly. Or it could make Nanase attracted to Elliot. And if not FV5 zapping, Tedd might design something stronger.

53 minutes ago, Scotty said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

There is also option of turning into hermaphrodite (with magic or TF gun), but I'm not sure if it would really help ...

I considered this a possibility as well, while we may never find out what Ellen and Nanase do beyond kissing and touching, the use of various toys is possible, including wearable ones, so if a form could be programed where only the important bits are changed but the rest of the body remains the same, it may be enough.

The form could certainly be programmed, only question is how it would make them feel, and yes, they can test this with toys beforehand.

16 minutes ago, chridd said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

There is also option of turning into hermaphrodite (with magic or TF gun), but I'm not sure if it would really help ...

I'm not sure why hermaphrodite in particular, but male genitals + otherwise female would almost certainly be possible.  (I guess with magic it would be possible to make a hermaphroditic human... would a lesbian be more comfortable having sex with someone with both genitals than someone with male genitals?  As an asexual virgin I honestly don't know the answer to that...)

Why hermaphrodite? Because they should BOTH get pregnant, obviously.

(Also, still having own genitals could make it easier to BE hermaphrodite compared to changing gender, at least for Ellen.)

16 minutes ago, chridd said:

Given animalia's comment and some things I read on another site (at least one genderfluid person said they feel gay no matter what their gender), I wonder if which of these is more basic depends on the person... and if so are impossible-to-satisfy combinations like heterosexual+gynesexual+female identity possible?

I'm certain which is more basic depends on the person (despite not being able to prove it and likely not being genderfluid enough to use my own feelings as argument).

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if at least some asexuals would actually have some of these impossible combination. Or something even more exotic: they are not actually asexual, they just aren't able to find what attracts them.

(So, don't give up, keep searching ... although considering you read EGS, you likely didn't give up completely yet)

[Don Edwards 548]

6 hours ago, Scotty said:

Basically, I don't recall seeing a "never" in regards to Ellen ever being male for any reason, and that's the basis of my opinion, if Dan comes out and says "Sorry, I've decided she'll never do it." then I'll have to accept that.

Even then there are two interpretations. One is that Ellen will never do it for Ellen's reasons, and the other is that Ellen will never be shown doing or to have done it for Dan's reasons.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Alternatively, if it would follow exactly what the TF gun does with sexuality, it will make cisgender people gender-meh by adding the "being ok with being spell's target gender" trait.

Yes, this is what I would hope for, either gender-meh or cisgender once transformed.  However, Justin at least stated that he didn't like being in the female body the TFG gave him, so it would seem things are not that simple and convenient.

Quote

(Note: gender fluid = your gender identity changes in time ; agender = you don't have any ; gender-meh = you are ok with what you are no matter what it is)

If we're clarifying the distinctions, I'd specify that gender fluid can experience dysphoria if their body does not match their gender at a given time.

Quote

I would consider "story around" almost too much ... but yes I would expect that if they go the egg way, they will have SOME answer to why not the TF gun solution (and tell us).

Or, maybe they'll just declare that those parts are private, and it's none of anyone else's business.

Quote

The definition likely didn't, but what changed is how "popular" it is - the "Transgender" page on wikipedia was CREATED in 2001 and "Gender fluid" is STILL missing. You can certainly find the definition if you search specifically for it, but Dan is example that you could totally miss it even if it's something which would interest you.

It's also much easier to search than it was when the comic started.  There are both a great many more web sites covering every given topic, and much better search algorithms and indexes.  I sometimes have a hard time understanding how great a leap we've made, and I lived through it all!  (Anyone else remember when Yahoo! was a giant branched index?)

Quote

Why hermaphrodite? Because they should BOTH get pregnant, obviously.

I could see them taking turns, but both being pregnant at the same time, with similar due dates, seems like a crazy idea, or at least very, very impractical!  Even normal twins are a lot more than twice the work of a singleton, and to have both parents recovering from a painful, exhausting physical challenge at the same time would be a very bad start.  They'd have both babies waking up at different times during the night, for extra sleep deprivation above and beyond the usual newborn fog of exhaustion, and they'd have to wrangle two toddlers at once, not to mention two college tuitions at once later on.

There's a very good reason most families who can, choose to put at least a couple of years between babies!

Quote

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if at least some asexuals would actually have some of these impossible combination. Or something even more exotic: they are not actually asexual, they just aren't able to find what attracts them.

(So, don't give up, keep searching ... although considering you read EGS, you likely didn't give up completely yet)

Perhaps that goes both ways, and I just haven't met the person(s) whose particular blend of kinks matches my ability to fulfill them.... ;-)

[hkmaly 490]

2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Alternatively, if it would follow exactly what the TF gun does with sexuality, it will make cisgender people gender-meh by adding the "being ok with being spell's target gender" trait.

Yes, this is what I would hope for, either gender-meh or cisgender once transformed.  However, Justin at least stated that he didn't like being in the female body the TFG gave him, so it would seem things are not that simple and convenient.

He also had trouble walking and standing and we KNOW the gun compensates for that, so he might be thinking too much about it .

Although more likely, the gun REDUCES dysphoria instead of removing it and Justin just happened to be the most cisgender person in group.

2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Quote

I would consider "story around" almost too much ... but yes I would expect that if they go the egg way, they will have SOME answer to why not the TF gun solution (and tell us).

Or, maybe they'll just declare that those parts are private, and it's none of anyone else's business.

They don't need to tell anyone, it would suffice if we would see their discussion - or part of it. If no reason would be shown at all, it would be weird.

2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

It's also much easier to search than it was when the comic started.  There are both a great many more web sites covering every given topic, and much better search algorithms and indexes.  I sometimes have a hard time understanding how great a leap we've made, and I lived through it all!  (Anyone else remember when Yahoo! was a giant branched index?)

Right, it took some time before someone dared to build fulltext index of all web (I remember AltaVista, but WebClawler was apparently first search in current sense ; and Yahoo took few years before it replaced it's directory with fulltext search).

2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I could see them taking turns, but both being pregnant at the same time, with similar due dates, seems like a crazy idea, or at least very, very impractical!  Even normal twins are a lot more than twice the work of a singleton, and to have both parents recovering from a painful, exhausting physical challenge at the same time would be a very bad start.  They'd have both babies waking up at different times during the night, for extra sleep deprivation above and beyond the usual newborn fog of exhaustion, and they'd have to wrangle two toddlers at once, not to mention two college tuitions at once later on.

There's a very good reason most families who can, choose to put at least a couple of years between babies!

I wouldn't recommend it to any real person either, but I wouldn't be surprised if Nanase took it as challenge. And it would definitely make the comics more interesting.

 

[Scotty 1,061]

8 hours ago, hkmaly said:

He also had trouble walking and standing and we KNOW the gun compensates for that, so he might be thinking too much about it

Elliot also lapsed in the ability to walk while in Mall Girl form so I'm pretty certain the TFG isn't the only thing that has compensation in that matter. It's possible that Elliot's forms also removes dysphoria, which lead to him to wanting to continue using them, but I think that's just the way Elliot is. We can speculate whether he's gender-fluid or gender-meh, gender-neutral is probably the closest we have, but I'm still not sure of that's really accurate. It's like Elliot is the perfect balance of masculine and feminine, he doesn't feel one or the other, but both, at the same time, which allows him to seamlessly move between them. His initial reaction to being female might have been genuine fear of the unknown, but it'd be similar to someone who had never been on a thrill ride at an amusement park before or eaten exotic foods. There was the "OMG What am I doing like this." initially, but then it became "this is actually pretty good." Of course Elliot suffered from "thou protesteth too much" syndrome in that he was reluctant to admit that he liked the spells he got, I think Ellen had suspected this for a long time which makes the "Not even when I was you" comment make sense.

I think if Elliot would suffer from any dysphoria, it'd be if he loses the ability to transform, but it'd be more like he just lost an arm and leg and forcing him to never be able to go on that thrill ride again, there will be phantom pains from the missing parts. Fortunately having Tedd as a friend is probably the equivalent to knowing a really good prosthetics engineer.

[Vorlonagent 442]

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

Elliot also lapsed in the ability to walk while in Mall Girl form so I'm pretty certain the TFG isn't the only thing that has compensation in that matter. It's possible that Elliot's forms also removes dysphoria, which lead to him to wanting to continue using them, but I think that's just the way Elliot is. We can speculate whether he's gender-fluid or gender-meh, gender-neutral is probably the closest we have, but I'm still not sure of that's really accurate. It's like Elliot is the perfect balance of masculine and feminine, he doesn't feel one or the other, but both, at the same time, which allows him to seamlessly move between them. His initial reaction to being female might have been genuine fear of the unknown, but it'd be similar to someone who had never been on a thrill ride at an amusement park before or eaten exotic foods. There was the "OMG What am I doing like this." initially, but then it became "this is actually pretty good." Of course Elliot suffered from "thou protesteth too much" syndrome in that he was reluctant to admit that he liked the spells he got, I think Ellen had suspected this for a long time which makes the "Not even when I was you" comment make sense.

With Elliot, the feminine might even be a little stronger.  His time as a bully that bullies other bullies could be looked at as a "mama bear" sort of thing, protecting those who couldn't protect themselves.

There's something that seems to happen to Elliot when he turns female.  His hormones went into overdrive both at Grace's birthday party when he was in female form looking at maleSarah and kissing Ashley in MallForm.  Or being feminine could simply lower his inhibitions. 

I feel like there's a loose thread there and I want to tug on it and see what unravels.

[Tom Sewell 268]

I have a few points to make while I can remember them.

1. The time limits for Tedd's transformation devices are arbitrary and optional features of their design. Tedd doesn't need to use his own spell to make a permanent transformation of any characteristic the guns and watches are capable of.
2. Grace can only get pregnant in human female form. She can't in any form that isn't entirely human.
3. Grace doesn't necessarily have the ability to help create an uryuom egg. Ever seen her in an uryuom form? Neither have I. And even if Grace does have the normal uryuom egg-creation ability, that ability normally requires at least two partners. Mr. Guyer was a rarity.
4. Do we really believe that The Government doesn't know everything about Teddtech™? That they would forgo the ability to create doppelganger spies because it would be unfair, unbalancing, and icky?
5. Think about how much money there would be in Teddtech™!
6. Think of all the plastic surgeons out of work!
7. Think about how many women would be willing to go through pregnancy if the uryuom egg was widely available as an alternative. And, if there are any men other than myself who've actually lived with a pregnant woman reading this, how much would you be willing to shell out for an egg that doesn't bitch at you for nine months or send you out for ribs at two in the morning and then eat just one bite before puking?

[Scotty 1,061]

1 minute ago, Vorlonagent said:

There's something that seems to happen to Elliot when he turns female.  His hormones went into overdrive both at Grace's birthday party when he was in female form looking at maleSarah and kissing Ashley in MallForm.  Or being feminine could simply lower his inhibitions. 

I don't believe that Grace's birthday party should be used as an example. f!Elliot's attraction to m!Sarah was due to the TFG adjusting their preferences to make them bisexual. There's been no indication that Elliot's standard morphs have that effect, f!Elliot may as well be lesbian while in female form and we have Ellen as evidence of it, the TFG tacked on the bisexual aspect of her, but her attraction to females is from Elliot, and she considers it a part that she doesn't want to change.

I'm imagining how Elliot might have turned out if he awakened with male transformations instead of female transformations and I don't really see there being much difference at it's base. Being able to look like something else would have an effect on how you behave, if Elliot's first transformation at school resulted in a cross between Justin and Tedd, he likely would have still felt liberated by the knowledge of no one recognizing him. That said I think the female transformations have provided Elliot with a new perspective on not just females, I'm not sure if Elliot would have received that message asking for help if Elliot only had male transformations, and maybe he wouldn't have had proper insight into what Tedd's been going through.

[Vorlonagent 442]

23 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I don't believe that Grace's birthday party should be used as an example. f!Elliot's attraction to m!Sarah was due to the TFG adjusting their preferences to make them bisexual. There's been no indication that Elliot's standard morphs have that effect, f!Elliot may as well be lesbian while in female form and we have Ellen as evidence of it, the TFG tacked on the bisexual aspect of her, but her attraction to females is from Elliot, and she considers it a part that she doesn't want to change.

We know the TF Gun retains its target's original orientation even though a trans-gender morph (if you liked girls before you still like them after) but adds some opposite-sex attraction.  Ellen describes that last part as feeling "tacked on".  I'm not sure we can blame the huge mutual attraction m!Sarah and f!Elliot felt on the TF gun, especially since neither character is turning out to be simply straight-heterosexual.in 2017.

Edit: I will agree that Elliot's generic "be a girl" spell doesn't seem to add any attraction for males, but note that is decidedly untrue for Elliot's "Mild mannered" secret ID form at the very least. 

23 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I'm imagining how Elliot might have turned out if he awakened with male transformations instead of female transformations and I don't really see there being much difference at it's base. Being able to look like something else would have an effect on how you behave, if Elliot's first transformation at school resulted in a cross between Justin and Tedd, he likely would have still felt liberated by the knowledge of no one recognizing him. That said I think the female transformations have provided Elliot with a new perspective on not just females, I'm not sure if Elliot would have received that message asking for help if Elliot only had male transformations, and maybe he wouldn't have had proper insight into what Tedd's been going through.

I disagree.  I think female forms were a way out of Elliot's self-repression and I don't think male forms would have that effect.  I think Elliot would have still understood Tedd though.    Even under normal circumstances, Elliot's mind does a great job of reducing some things down.  "She's family. Help her." with Ellen for example. 

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

but note that is decidedly untrue for Elliot's "Mild mannered" secret ID form at the very least. 

That's why I specifically talked about Elliot's standard morphs, I consider the secret ID forms as being in the same category as the TFG, the secret ID's alters Elliot's personality to allow him to act naturally so that people don't supect anything, granted the TFG doesn't go that far, but it still alters enough to make it easier to deal with physical attraction.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

I disagree.  I think female forms were a way out of Elliot's self-repression and I don't think male forms would have that effect.  I think Elliot would have still understood Tedd though.    Even under normal circumstances, Elliot's mind does a great job of reducing some things down.  "She's family. Help her." with Ellen for example. 

It may not have had the same effect, but it would have had an effect one way or another, I don't believe for a second that he'd still be a stick in the mud. As I said, the female forms gave Elliot a different perspective, having the ability to switch from male to female would have given him an understanding of why Tedd does it, Elliot could put himself in Tedd's shoes faster than he probably would have if he only had male morphs.

[chridd 31]

3 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

The time limits for Tedd's transformation devices are arbitrary and optional features of their design. Tedd doesn't need to use his own spell to make a permanent transformation of any characteristic the guns and watches are capable of.

I don't remember that being the case (though the time limits have always been changeable, though perhaps not arbitrarily so).

3 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Grace can only get pregnant in human female form. She can't in any form that isn't entirely human.

Originally (before she gained any new forms), she could get pregnant in human but not part-squirrel form.  I don't think we know about any other form, or whether being zapped by the transformation gun for the first time (which changed how she transformed) changed that fact.

[Vorlonagent 442]

18 minutes ago, Scotty said:

That's why I specifically talked about Elliot's standard morphs, I consider the secret ID forms as being in the same category as the TFG, the secret ID's alters Elliot's personality to allow him to act naturally so that people don't supect anything, granted the TFG doesn't go that far, but it still alters enough to make it easier to deal with physical attraction.

The Secret ID forms don't need heterosexual attraction to do their jobs.
 

19 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It may not have had the same effect, but it would have had an effect one way or another, I don't believe for a second that he'd still be a stick in the mud. As I said, the female forms gave Elliot a different perspective, having the ability to switch from male to female would have given him an understanding of why Tedd does it, Elliot could put himself in Tedd's shoes faster than he probably would have if he only had male morphs.

Elliot has two spells that we know of (plus this new "vision" spell of which we know little).  Those are his "be any girl" spell and his Cheerleadra spell.  Now gender-invert those two.

I can't see how a "be any guy" spell is going to reduce Elliot's stick-in-the-mudness.  Seems to me any male body is going to be too like his own for him to give himself permission to loosen up.   This would be even more true of a "Superman" spell.  He would be more like he normal surface persona that he usually is.  I'll grant a partial exception for the secret ID forms, but that's it.  I don't see turning into a different guy is going to open Elliot up.  What am I missing?

RE Tedd, Elliot has had a long time to observe Tedd as Tedd's only friend.  I read Elliot's answer to Tedd the same way as Elliot's answer to Ellen I referenced upthread.  In my mind, that comes from Elliot's core being.  He had to work through his own issues with Tedd's frequent transformations, and Grace rightly called him on the effect he had on Tedd.  But Elliot got through most of that before he knew he was awakened.  the last time he voiced any in-comic issues with Tedd was Grace's birthday party.

[hkmaly 490]

8 hours ago, Scotty said:

Elliot also lapsed in the ability to walk while in Mall Girl form so I'm pretty certain the TFG isn't the only thing that has compensation in that matter. It's possible that Elliot's forms also removes dysphoria, which lead to him to wanting to continue using them, but I think that's just the way Elliot is.

Elliot's original girl spell was created by dewitchery diamond and therefore could have more common attributes with TF gun effect than is usual for transformations. (Although it stacks differently. Meanwhile, Ellen's original spell is COMPLETE copy of TF gun.)

8 hours ago, Scotty said:

There was the "OMG What am I doing like this." initially, but then it became "this is actually pretty good." Of course Elliot suffered from "thou protesteth too much" syndrome in that he was reluctant to admit that he liked the spells he got, I think Ellen had suspected this for a long time which makes the "Not even when I was you" comment make sense.

Ellen didn't needed to suspect it. She remembers it.

8 hours ago, Scotty said:

I think if Elliot would suffer from any dysphoria, it'd be if he loses the ability to transform, but it'd be more like he just lost an arm and leg and forcing him to never be able to go on that thrill ride again, there will be phantom pains from the missing parts. Fortunately having Tedd as a friend is probably the equivalent to knowing a really good prosthetics engineer.

I think he would still miss flying the most. Although ... he already have trouble sleeping without boobs ...

4 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

The time limits for Tedd's transformation devices are arbitrary and optional features of their design. Tedd doesn't need to use his own spell to make a permanent transformation of any characteristic the guns and watches are capable of.

The specific time limit is arbitrary, however the gun DOES have fixed maximum. I'm not sure if it was mentioned anywhere, but enchantments are temporary as a rule and the obvious upper limit would be based on how much energy the gun has.

4 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Grace can only get pregnant in human female form. She can't in any form that isn't entirely human.

This information is from the time she only had three forms. It's likely it's now subject to the "mix-and-matching" rules and Grace can turn it on or off by will.

4 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Grace doesn't necessarily have the ability to help create an uryuom egg. Ever seen her in an uryuom form? Neither have I. And even if Grace does have the normal uryuom egg-creation ability, that ability normally requires at least two partners. Mr. Guyer was a rarity.

Mr. Guyer was also her FATHER and Damien was convinced she has that ability. He might've be mistaken about the "rarity", but he wasn't that much stupid, so we can assume chimeras generally DO have the egg-creation ability. Grace's antennae might've been involved.

4 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Do we really believe that The Government doesn't know everything about Teddtech™? That they would forgo the ability to create doppelganger spies because it would be unfair, unbalancing, and icky?

Obviously, DGB knows about Teddtech. It's also nothing new for them - they already have magic users who can transform (including the one who pretended to be Cheerleadra). That doesn't mean they will share this with FBI or CIA.

4 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Think about how much money there would be in Teddtech™!

None, as long as DGB will send agents with magic wands against anyone trying to sell it.

24 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

That's why I specifically talked about Elliot's standard morphs, I consider the secret ID forms as being in the same category as the TFG, the secret ID's alters Elliot's personality to allow him to act naturally so that people don't supect anything, granted the TFG doesn't go that far, but it still alters enough to make it easier to deal with physical attraction.

The Secret ID forms don't need heterosexual attraction to do their jobs.

It does make them more convincing, just like the "no swearing" part.

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

I'm imagining how Elliot might have turned out if he awakened with male transformations instead of female transformations and I don't really see there being much difference at it's base.

I find hard to imagine such option, as 1) Tedd doesn't have any male forms on gun 2) if changed into different male, Elliot would likely not bother with Dewitchery diamond 3) Pandora and Magus made sure this happens like it happened.

Also, remember Elliot's counterargument when Ellen told him he doesn't need to be female to loosen up.

24 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

But Elliot got through most of that before he knew he was awakened.  the last time he voiced any in-comic issues with Tedd was Grace's birthday party.

Before he awakened but after his own experience with being girl. Although it is possible that even without his own girl forms, even the experience at Grace's party could be enough.

[Scotty 1,061]

7 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

The Secret ID forms don't need heterosexual attraction to do their jobs.

They do have homosexual and/or bisexual attraction as well, are you 100% convinced that Heidi kissing Carol was not driven by the Party Girl personality?

12 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Elliot has two spells that we know of (plus this new "vision" spell of which we know little).  Those are his "be any girl" spell and his Cheerleadra spell.  Now gender-invert those two.

The new spell isn't tied to female forms at all, which means m!Elliot can use it, as well as cat!Elliot, along with the female forms/Cheerleadra, this is Elliot's first non gender spell since awakening.

24 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I can't see how a "be any guy" spell is going to reduce Elliot's stick-in-the-mudness.  Seems to me any male body is going to be too like his own for him to give himself permission to loosen up.   This would be even more true of a "Superman" spell.  He would be more like he normal surface persona that he usually is.  I'll grant a partial exception for the secret ID forms, but that's it.  I don't see turning into a different guy is going to open Elliot up.  What am I missing?

It's the feeling of anonymity that being in another form would give Elliot, it wouldn't matter if he was in a male form or female form, being unrecognizable would make him feel more adventurous, of course what Elliot does with that anonymity would be different for each case but it would still happen.

Elliot dreamed of being a superhero for a long time before he could actually be one, once Elliot found out he could fly, he didn't care about the fact that he was female. I can still see Elliot saying "Dude, I can fly" and being all giddy about it if he was "Super Elliot" instead of Cheerleadra.

33 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

RE Tedd, Elliot has had a long time to observe Tedd as Tedd's only friend.  I read Elliot's answer to Tedd the same way as Elliot's answer to Ellen I referenced upthread.  In my mind, that comes from Elliot's core being.  He had to work through his own issues with Tedd's frequent transformations, and Grace rightly called him on the effect he had on Tedd.  But Elliot got through most of that before he knew he was awakened.  the last time he voiced any in-comic issues with Tedd was Grace's birthday party.

But remember Elliot's initial reaction to seeing Tedd as a female, if Elliot didn't go through the experience of being female as well, he may have continued to think that way, and it's bad enough that Edward's covering that field.

16 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Elliot's original girl spell was created by dewitchery diamond and therefore could have more common attributes with TF gun effect than is usual for transformations. (Although it stacks differently. Meanwhile, Ellen's original spell is COMPLETE copy of TF gun.)

I was basing the though process on Elliot going through with the whole diamond stuff, but not having his magic get messed up and therefore awakening with male transformation spells. Yes Elliot would still have the initial female form that allowed him to escape the ropes, but he was still at a stage where if given the option of male or female, there's a higher chance he'd have chosen male, even after he learned about the cheerleadra form he was all "there's got to be a way to get male related spells".

27 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Although ... he already have trouble sleeping without boobs ...

That could also be Elliot having gotten used to the routine, it'd be like getting a new mattress, it takes a few nights to get used to it because your body had grown accustom to the old one. And then once you've gotten used to the new one, you go out of town for a couple days and need to spend a night at a hotel or friend's place and it feels weird because it's not what you've become used to.

44 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

This information is from the time she only had three forms. It's likely it's now subject to the "mix-and-matching" rules and Grace can turn it on or off by will.

It's also possible that what Edward knew about that was part of the "version of the story told to people who aren't in the need to know."

48 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Mr. Guyer was also her FATHER and Damien was convinced she has that ability. He might've be mistaken about the "rarity", but he wasn't that much stupid, so we can assume chimeras generally DO have the egg-creation ability. Grace's antennae might've been involved.

Dr Sciuridae didn't make any attempt to disprove this either, maybe out of fear, but for now this files under "inconclusive: more data required".

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I find hard to imagine such option, as 1) Tedd doesn't have any male forms on gun 2) if changed into different male, Elliot would likely not bother with Dewitchery diamond 3) Pandora and Magus made sure this happens like it happened.

1)There was the base male (v1) form that the gun came with, plus there would have been William's Human form, then Grace's, Susan's, Nanase's and Sarah's forms for Grace's birthday party, and then lastly the male forms designed in MV5 were going to have a zappable version and a watch version. Tedd just never had a desire to design extra male forms for himself.

2)True, he wouldn't have to worry about buying new clothes (unless he was too big or too small for his regular clothes), but he'd still have to deal with explaining the whole thing to his principle, that likely wouldn't turn out the same, I think he might still opt to return to normal as quick as possible.

3)Well, I dunno if the intention was to have Elliot end up with confused magic giving him female based spells. I think Ellen's creation was the first failed attempt at Magus getting a physical body and that Ellen should have been Magus at the beginning, one can assume that Helena and Demetrius foiled that attempt but who knows.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Also, remember Elliot's counterargument when Ellen told him he doesn't need to be female to loosen up.

This may have been the point where Elliot started really enjoying the forms, well seeing what the goth form looked like may have helped as well.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Before he awakened but after his own experience with being girl. Although it is possible that even without his own girl forms, even the experience at Grace's party could be enough.

I don't think being a girl once or twice would be enough, having to change repeated for months certainly would, there's probably a specific point in time somewhere in there, but that probably varies depending on who you ask. Grace's birthday party would have been the 4th time I believe, 1st from original zap, 2nd to escape ropes, 3rd to show Ellen and Nanase, 4th Party. And then it was only a couple days after the party when the buildups kicked in.

[Vorlonagent 442]

1 minute ago, Scotty said:

They do have homosexual and/or bisexual attraction as well, are you 100% convinced that Heidi kissing Carol was not driven by the Party Girl personality?

Why not?  It's in-character for the Party Form to do something like that.  Why complicate things by looking for motivations that don't need to exist?

7 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It's the feeling of anonymity that being in another form would give Elliot, it wouldn't matter if he was in a male form or female form, being unrecognizable would make him feel more adventurous, of course what Elliot does with that anonymity would be different for each case but it would still happen.

Even in female form, anonymity doesn't seem to have a long-term effect on Elliot's mannerisms.  He'll do somethin outside his comfort zone for a moment and then his old habits reassert themselves.  Date at the Mall made that pretty clear. 

Not having experienced a woman's body personally but having known a few, I'll go out on a small ledge and suggest that a brain doesn't work quite the same soaked in estrogen as soaked in testosterone and this day-to-day, moment to moment effect on Elliot would be more profound by far than individual instances of stepping out of his mental box from anonymity.

12 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Elliot dreamed of being a superhero for a long time before he could actually be one, once Elliot found out he could fly, he didn't care about the fact that he was female. I can still see Elliot saying "Dude, I can fly" and being all giddy about it if he was "Super Elliot" instead of Cheerleadra.

I can go with this.

13 minutes ago, Scotty said:

But remember Elliot's initial reaction to seeing Tedd as a female, if Elliot didn't go through the experience of being female as well, he may have continued to think that way, and it's bad enough that Edward's covering that field.

Why would Elliot continue to object to Tedd's female forms?  He's generally an open-minded guy.  Eventually he just gets used to Tedd being Tedd and quits saying anything. 

The realization that both Elliot and Ed Verres needed and need is that being a girl is important to Tedd not just Tedd 2.0 stoking some fetish fuel.  Neither need to transform into women themselves to figure that out.  Just pay attention to Tedd.  Elliot has the advantage of Tedd telling him flat-out that it's important.  Tedd has not had that conversation with his dad.

[hkmaly 490]

9 minutes ago, Scotty said:

But remember Elliot's initial reaction to seeing Tedd as a female, if Elliot didn't go through the experience of being female as well, he may have continued to think that way, and it's bad enough that Edward's covering that field.

... we should transform Edward.

11 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I was basing the though process on Elliot going through with the whole diamond stuff, but not having his magic get messed up and therefore awakening with male transformation spells. Yes Elliot would still have the initial female form that allowed him to escape the ropes, but he was still at a stage where if given the option of male or female, there's a higher chance he'd have chosen male, even after he learned about the cheerleadra form he was all "there's got to be a way to get male related spells".

He was basically stuck with getting female transformation spells until he learns to like them, so ...

Without the magic being confused he would likely get non-transformation spells - meaning, he would likely get superhero spell which would NOT change his look. Similarly how Justin got spell making him stronger.

Although ... there is one way how this could happen: what if the magic WAS confused with the cat transformation? Elliot would then get male cat superhero spell ... and got bigger understanding of Brownie ...

18 minutes ago, Scotty said:

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

This information is from the time she only had three forms. It's likely it's now subject to the "mix-and-matching" rules and Grace can turn it on or off by will.

It's also possible that what Edward knew about that was part of the "version of the story told to people who aren't in the need to know."

This seem like too random fact to be made up. Although ... wait. Wasn't Grace supposed to be male originally? What exactly did they do to her?

26 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Dr Sciuridae didn't make any attempt to disprove this either, maybe out of fear, but for now this files under "inconclusive: more data required".

And note that if he WOULD be able to prove she's not able to make the eggs, he would likely do it in attempt to save her from Damien's interest.

28 minutes ago, Scotty said:

There was the base male (v1) form that the gun came with, plus there would have been William's Human form, then Grace's, Susan's, Nanase's and Sarah's forms for Grace's birthday party, and then lastly the male forms designed in MV5 were going to have a zappable version and a watch version. Tedd just never had a desire to design extra male forms for himself.

At the time of Elliot first transformation, there would be ONLY MV1. Even William's form was created later. And MV1 only lasts day and would do NOTHING to someone who is already male, so ...

30 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Well, I dunno if the intention was to have Elliot end up with confused magic giving him female based spells. I think Ellen's creation was the first failed attempt at Magus getting a physical body and that Ellen should have been Magus at the beginning, one can assume that Helena and Demetrius foiled that attempt but who knows.

While possible, I think that Ellen was necessary, specifically that Magus needs someone created by diamond. Obviously, she didn't needed to be girl, but as already said, that's the only transformation lasting that long Tedd had on gun ...

We don't know why, but note that Magus WAS obviously influencing Tedd and Elliot was only one around, so the conditions were ideal. Outside of Helena and Demetrius arriving EXACTLY at the right moment to stop him, I don't see why it shouldn't ended as Magus planned.

32 minutes ago, Scotty said:

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Before he awakened but after his own experience with being girl. Although it is possible that even without his own girl forms, even the experience at Grace's party could be enough.

I don't think being a girl once or twice would be enough, having to change repeated for months certainly would, there's probably a specific point in time somewhere in there, but that probably varies depending on who you ask. Grace's birthday party would have been the 4th time I believe, 1st from original zap, 2nd to escape ropes, 3rd to show Ellen and Nanase, 4th Party. And then it was only a couple days after the party when the buildups kicked in.

I said possible, not likely. On the other hand, I really wouldn't think he was thinking about stuff like this when escaping ropes. Once with some introspection might've be enough ... but Elliot isn't likely to make introspection, so ...

7 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Why would Elliot continue to object to Tedd's female forms?  He's generally an open-minded guy.  Eventually he just gets used to Tedd being Tedd and quits saying anything. 

Oh he would definitely stop saying anything. Question is if he would actually understand that.

 

[Scotty 1,061]

8 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Why not?  It's in-character for the Party Form to do something like that.  Why complicate things by looking for motivations that don't need to exist?

Elliot even said "I was energetic and impulsive and knew what to say to people" that was the form's personality doing the heavy lifting for him, he doesn't have that with the standard morphs.

11 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Even in female form, anonymity doesn't seem to have a long-term effect on Elliot's mannerisms.  He'll do somethin outside his comfort zone for a moment and then his old habits reassert themselves.  Date at the Mall made that pretty clear. 

I think Date at the Mall is one of the reasons Elliot's going to miss having magic. He's found someone he can have fun transforming with and while I'm sure Ashley won't change how she feels about him if he lost the ability, he'd still miss it.

18 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Why would Elliot continue to object to Tedd's female forms?  He's generally an open-minded guy.  Eventually he just gets used to Tedd being Tedd and quits saying anything. 

How would you feel if someone were to see you doing things and go "Oh that's just Vorlonagent being Vorlonagent."

Elliot did use the "He's Tedd" excuse, but he had a good reason to do so, in any other context, it would be a hurtful comment even if Elliot didn't intend on it and Tedd initially did take offense to it until Elliot explained why. That was probably the last time Elliot said something like that to Tedd, and we know for a fact that Tedd was still worrying about how Elliot felt until just a couple day's ago (comic time).

30 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

The realization that both Elliot and Ed Verres needed and need is that being a girl is important to Tedd not just Tedd 2.0 stoking some fetish fuel.  Neither need to transform into women themselves to figure that out.  Just pay attention to Tedd.  Elliot has the advantage of Tedd telling him flat-out that it's important.  Tedd has not had that conversation with his dad.

I'm not going to argue that Elliot wouldn't notice something. I'm just saying that how Elliot handles it would likely be different.

21 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... we should transform Edward.

"Don't knock it till you try it."

23 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

This seem like too random fact to be made up. Although ... wait. Wasn't Grace supposed to be male originally? What exactly did they do to her?

Edward remembers seeing a concept drawing of what Shade Tail was supposed to be. He like knew about Dr. Sciuridae's daughter Grace dying in a car accident from background checks of personnel before his mission, I mean Sarah was able to find out by searching obituaries so it wouldn't have been difficult. What Edward might not have known initially was that Dr Sciuridae used his daughter's blood in the Shade Tail project, and he wouldn't have known about about the Lespuko part.

Half-squirrel Grace not being able to get pregnant might have been rule of funny at work, I mean just look at the reaction it got.

48 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

And note that if he WOULD be able to prove she's not able to make the eggs, he would likely do it in attempt to save her from Damien's interest.

I don't think it would have saved her, Damien would not be happy, but he'd have no problem with resorting to using rape with Grace, remember he was willing to use any female Hedge could bring back if Hedge couldn't find Grace.

I don't think playing along with Damien's belief would have worked in the long run either, I don't think it would work as a stalling tactic, Damien would have demanded Grace make an egg and if she failed, then...

58 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

We don't know why, but note that Magus WAS obviously influencing Tedd and Elliot was only one around, so the conditions were ideal. Outside of Helena and Demetrius arriving EXACTLY at the right moment to stop him, I don't see why it shouldn't ended as Magus planned.

Ok, so it wasn't Helena and Demetrius, but something didn't go as planned. Pandora stated "twice bid for freedom, twice failed", if Ellen's creation was only the setup, and the only failed attempt we saw was on Grace's Birthday, then what was the other attempt?

 

[hkmaly 490]

46 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Half-squirrel Grace not being able to get pregnant might have been rule of funny at work, I mean just look at the reaction it got.

Sure, but this is not like magic's flair for dramatic: rule of funny fails to be in-universe explanation. It was already weird that Mr. Verres said it (as mentioned in commentary), it would be even weirder if someone made it up ... but that would assume that it was specifically Dr. Sciuridae who did that, and for some reason (alcohol might've been involved ... I can imagine Dr. Sciuridae going on long monologue about how important she is to him and let go some details like this ...) told it to Mr. Verres.

46 minutes ago, Scotty said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

And note that if he WOULD be able to prove she's not able to make the eggs, he would likely do it in attempt to save her from Damien's interest.

I don't think it would have saved her, Damien would not be happy, but he'd have no problem with resorting to using rape with Grace, remember he was willing to use any female Hedge could bring back if Hedge couldn't find Grace.

The idea was that without ability to make uryuom eggs, Damien might not bother searching so hard for her and would search for ANY female from start ... although, considering Grace was still only female chimera he knew about, it might not be enough.

46 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I don't think playing along with Damien's belief would have worked in the long run either, I don't think it would work as a stalling tactic, Damien would have demanded Grace make an egg and if she failed, then...

Exactly. Therefore, no reason for Dr. Sciuridae to talk about that, unless the possibility is real and even then it likely wasn't him who told Damien.

46 minutes ago, Scotty said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

We don't know why, but note that Magus WAS obviously influencing Tedd and Elliot was only one around, so the conditions were ideal. Outside of Helena and Demetrius arriving EXACTLY at the right moment to stop him, I don't see why it shouldn't ended as Magus planned.

Ok, so it wasn't Helena and Demetrius, but something didn't go as planned. Pandora stated "twice bid for freedom, twice failed", if Ellen's creation was only the setup, and the only failed attempt we saw was on Grace's Birthday, then what was the other attempt?

It could easily be this. Magus is not influencing Ellen here, at least not much, but it's possible his original plan was Ellen will zap Elliot when they get together, which failed basically because she stopped being annoyed at him before he arrived.

The "twice" is actually suspicious. Magus was likely trying all the time, if you count the cases where he didn't get far (or near) due to the immortals watching Elliot. For some reason, Pandora doesn't count that ...

Note that Pandora directly said he needs Ellen. The idea that he might make Tedd using TF gun on Elliot again NEVER APPEARED. Worse: Elliot WAS zapped into girl form at the party and Magus didn't tried to use that opportunity ... although, maybe he was still hiding.

[Scotty 1,061]

3 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Exactly. Therefore, no reason for Dr. Sciuridae to talk about that, unless the possibility is real and even then it likely wasn't him who told Damien.

Well, Damien didn't know that Mr Guyur was the one that made the eggs used to create Grace and her brothers, but I wouldn't doubt that Dr Sciuridae was the one the told Damien how Grace and her brothers were created, it would certain have been under threat of death or harm to Grace. It's possible Damien learned about Dr. Sciuridae from Hedge or Vlad, also under threat of harm to them and Grace, and Guineas of course, but I don't think Damien could understand snorts and squeaks.

12 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It could easily be this. Magus is not influencing Ellen here, at least not much, but it's possible his original plan was Ellen will zap Elliot when they get together, which failed basically because she stopped being annoyed at him before he arrived.

There was absolutely no guarantee of Ellen zapping Elliot in that instance without influence. She intended to zap Tedd so she zapped Tedd. Maybe Magus hoped that Ellen would zap Elliot while they were still in the almostnonexistantsecurity facility, but Ellen ended up taking off instead. I dunno, that feels like leaving things up to chance as well which isn't a very good plan.

The main reason why the attempt on Grace's birthday failed, was because Magus underestimated the fact that Ellen had resolved to not zap Elliot and resisted the amplification enough to direct the beam elsewhere. The best chance for an attempt with amplification would have been earlier on.

53 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The "twice" is actually suspicious. Magus was likely trying all the time, if you count the cases where he didn't get far due to the immortals watching Elliot. For some reason, Pandora doesn't count that ...

Magus had been stuck in limbo for 2 years prior to Grace's birthday...If the creation of Ellen wasn't the first attempt, but the setup for the second attempt, then the actually first attempt would have taken place before the start of the comic. The only other time we know of where Helena and Demetrius had any influence was the France trip. and the France trip was after Magus appeared in Limbo and Pandora was apparently there offering help right from the start, what if the vampire in France was an attempt to lure Helena and Demetrius away from Elliot, just like vampires are being used to do so now.

Only issue is there isn't evidence that Elliot experienced anything to suggest that an attempt had been made, the only other event that was similar to Elliot being zapped was when Tedd accidentally zapped Sarah, both instances had the TFG conveniently malfunction after zapping, but Elliot was apparently not present for the incident. Also, the incident was just a few months before the comic started so quite a bit after France so the only way it would work is if Helena and Demetrius were not lured to France as a distraction, but to make them do something that forced a reset on them, Magus would have had some time to act before Les Immortals new lives started. So the question is...What happened to make it a failed attempt?

[Vorlonagent 442]

14 hours ago, Scotty said:

Elliot even said "I was energetic and impulsive and knew what to say to people" that was the form's personality doing the heavy lifting for him, he doesn't have that with the standard morphs.

Your post here seems to agree to me not support your earlier assertion.  Your argument was that the Party Form had to have altered Elliot's sexuality.  I said "why?"  Elliot gained impulsiveness and it's reasonable to think he was casually attracted to Carol Brown already so: peck on the cheek from the Party Form.  No alterations to Elliot's sexuality needed. 

14 hours ago, Scotty said:

I think Date at the Mall is one of the reasons Elliot's going to miss having magic. He's found someone he can have fun transforming with and while I'm sure Ashley won't change how she feels about him if he lost the ability, he'd still miss it.

Agreed.

14 hours ago, Scotty said:

How would you feel if someone were to see you doing things and go "Oh that's just Vorlonagent being Vorlonagent."

Elliot did use the "He's Tedd" excuse, but he had a good reason to do so, in any other context, it would be a hurtful comment even if Elliot didn't intend on it and Tedd initially did take offense to it until Elliot explained why. That was probably the last time Elliot said something like that to Tedd, and we know for a fact that Tedd was still worrying about how Elliot felt until just a couple day's ago (comic time).

Much depends on how one says "that's just him being him.", but it's still acceptance rather than "why are you doing this?"  I'd prefer that someone "get" me, but having them at least stop harping on it (whatever "it" is) is a definite step up.  The ideal case is "that's him being him" said with understanding.

Worry is not always justified and usually isn't.  (In this case, Tedd has some cause, granted) As Tedd emerged from his Tedd 2.0 stage, the Tedd 1.0 anxieties were bound to return.  Tedd would likely be worried about Elliot's opinion even if there was absolutely no reason to be, just because people important to him have left him before.

[Drasvin 123]

19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Obviously, DGB knows about Teddtech. It's also nothing new for them - they already have magic users who can transform (including the one who pretended to be Cheerleadra). That doesn't mean they will share this with FBI or CIA.

I would like to interject that the DGB is a subdivision of the FBI. It was mentioned in one of the earlier comics, but I don't remember which one. Though due to the paranormal division's highly secretive nature, special security clearances are likely needed to view any of their files or even know of their existence outside of a fairly nondescript section of the FBI's org chart. So, I doubt they would willingly share with the rest of the bureau. (Then again, Arthur J. Arthur previously appeared publicly as a critic and consultant to the FBI, so the existence of the Paranormal Investigations Division might be public knowledge, just everything they do is kept secret.)

 

16 hours ago, Scotty said:

Ok, so it wasn't Helena and Demetrius, but something didn't go as planned. Pandora stated "twice bid for freedom, twice failed", if Ellen's creation was only the setup, and the only failed attempt we saw was on Grace's Birthday, then what was the other attempt?

My guess, his first attempt would have been right after Ellen was separated from Elliot. She was emotionally vulnerable and the dewitchery diamond was right there. It would make the most sense for him to act there and accomplish the final steps of his plan all at once.