34 replies to this topic

[Kaosgirl]

So thanks to the crash, and the subsequent tendency of the comic-page forum links to deposit one in the wrong forum, I stumbled apon this comic. And I'm kinda not sure how I feel about it right now.

Keeping this seperate from the current-chapter thread in case it's repeating a discussion that came up before (also so it can be readily ignored if it touches on ideas others would rather not hear about.)

Thinking about how I'd feel being in Trent's place. It's a bit different for me; I want a sex change. Given the choice, I would have said yes instantly; even with the 'five-month chain,' the possibility of dying and everything else just for that. It would be a fair price, if I had a real chance to decide.

But there was no chance, and that alone invalidates every good part about it in my mind. It makes them no better, morally and ethically, from someone telling me I'm wrong to wish I was a girl and trying to force me to accept being male. The only difference is they have the power to actually force that acceptance, and an attitude that it's no big deal. And I think it's that which provokes the emotional reaction, more than anything. To me, it is a big deal.

But I'm interested enough to see how it plays out. Maybe because I'm an emotional masochist, attracted to things that make me angry; or maybe because I'm just addicted to gender-change stories in general, and I'm caught up enough on the other ones I know of that I'm craving a new one.

[Snufkin]

So thanks to the crash, and the subsequent tendency of the comic-page forum links to deposit one in the wrong forum, I stumbled upon this comic. And I'm kinda not sure how I feel about it right now.

The randomness of the universe strikes again...
The moral ambiguity is built into the story. The Angels have power, and the arrogance to make decisions for others, believing that they are doing good in the long run. (A very dangerous combination.) Yes, they do good things, but questions can and should be raised about their methods. I'm not really giving anything away when I say that this very question will be raised in some form or other as the story proceeds. My attempt is to make them real people, faced with big choices. Some of their decisions will be wrong. And as in real life, sometimes the right choice can lead to disaster, and the wrong choice to unexpected success.

[BlackWolfe Coyoten]

The randomness of the universe strikes again...

Hail, She What Began it All!

I'm not really giving anything away when I say that this very question will be raised in some form or other as the story proceeds.

Multiple times, I assume.

[Frith Ra]

In some level, the question permeates every strip. In the current strip we see that even the Angels can be victims (on some level) of misapplied morality.

It was, in fact, this very moral ambiguity which helped attract me to this story. What's right & what's wrong aren't always theaters for grand action sequences, but rather for that internal dialog which most modern story-telling media seems to shy away from. We are not so much treading new ground here as we are re-exploring a mostly forgotten terrain.

Your input into this really does help make this all to be a better story. So yes, express your doubts & your concerns, tell us what you think we (or the Angels) are doing right or wrong or just could have been done a little bit more ... whatever. The script has been written, but we've changed bits of it before & we can continue to do so in the future.

But know that the final pages have been scripted already & those won't change much

[Frostfire]

The randomness of the universe strikes again...
The moral ambiguity is built into the story. The Angels have power, and the arrogance to make decisions for others, believing that they are doing good in the long run.

So did Adolph Hitler.

[Frith Ra]

The forum has already been Godwined.

[Kaosgirl]

Your input into this really does help make this all to be a better story. So yes, express your doubts & your concerns, tell us what you think we (or the Angels) are doing right or wrong or just could have been done a little bit more ... whatever. The script has been written, but we've changed bits of it before & we can continue to do so in the future.

Well... since you asked
For all the folks in there who've gone through or witnessed the same thing Trent's going through, not one of them seems to actually understand (or maybe they just don't really care.) They all act like the shiny baubles make it all better, and any fears of losing himself or anger at not having a choice can be just dismissed with "don't worry about it, you'll thank us, no it's not brainwashing." Which, to me, still sounds like brainwashing. I mean, Willa could very well be lying when she says "it's still me inside," or just lost too much of herself to know the difference anymore.

Anyway, like I PMd to Snufkin, don't feel like you need to defend it or anything (especially if all the above will be revealed to be intentional later or something.) Just throwing out my thoughts, and I've got some weird thoughts on the value and nature of self-identity.

[scotts13]

For all the folks in there who've gone through or witnessed the same thing Trent's going through, not one of them seems to actually understand (or maybe they just don't really care.) They all act like the shiny baubles make it all better, and any fears of losing himself or anger at not having a choice can be just dismissed with "don't worry about it, you'll thank us, no it's not brainwashing." Which, to me, still sounds like brainwashing...

The topic has come up before, more than once. I don't have the affinity for Trent's change that you do; even without the strings and as a temporary experiment, it would take some careful consideration. But I DO share your outrage over his lack of choice in the matter; were it forced on me my main decision would be if honor required a killing spree now, or if it would be acceptable to wait until I could cause more damage.

But that's just the old-fashioned kind of guy I am.

However, if I take a hard line on that, I don't get to read the rest of the comic, and see how it comes out. (c'mon, killing spree!)

[Kaosgirl]

The topic has come up before, more than once. I don't have the affinity for Trent's change that you do; even without the strings and as a temporary experiment, it would take some careful consideration. But I DO share your outrage over his lack of choice in the matter; were it forced on me my main decision would be if honor required a killing spree now, or if it would be acceptable to wait until I could cause more damage.

Not too surprised it's come up before, but with the forum hiccup I couldn't go around finding it. But I'm glad someone else seems to think it's not just some little thing that can be bought off with a spiel about how great a deal you really got.

At the same time, I can sorta understand why they do it that way though. It's not something you really can offer a choice about without blowing the security if the prospect does say no. He's heard too much to let go of if you give him enough information to make an informed decision. And if what they do is as important as they say, or even if they just think it is, then they do need to get people in somehow. I guess that's why I'd be willing to forgive it, if they made some sort of gesture to say they know that part was wrong, and that there is some regret over it.

Maybe that's a part of what all the perks and all the luxuries are really about, though; and part of why they chose Trent, who had less of a life to take away. We fixed you so the cancer won't get you, and if you want a lambourghini or something just ask at the front desk; we took part of your life away and forced you to live the rest of it on our terms, so it's only fair...
And my problem is just that my idea of a meaningful gesture differs from theirs. Probably one of the reasons I'd never be chosen

[BlackWolfe Coyoten]

Maybe that's a part of what all the perks and all the luxuries are really about, though; and part of why they chose Trent, who had less of a life to take away. We fixed you so the cancer won't get you, and if you want a lambourghini or something just ask at the front desk; we took part of your life away and forced you to live the rest of it on our terms, so it's only fair...
And my problem is just that my idea of a meaningful gesture differs from theirs. Probably one of the reasons I'd never be chosen

I'm curious what criteria they used to choose Trent, now that you mention it.

And yes, it is a rather harsh trade-off, no doubt. And yes, Trent has every right to be pissed off about it. However, he can't. Not like you and Scotts are talking about. And you'd better believe that's a method of control, right there.

[scotts13]

And yes, it is a rather harsh trade-off, no doubt. And yes, Trent has every right to be pissed off about it. However, he can't. Not like you and Scotts are talking about.

Why not? The comic you linked to mentions a disabled fight-or-flight reflex. The hypothetical "killing spree" is an intellectual reaction, not a glandular one; and one that is clearly undertaken knowing the cost was the victims' life.

It may be just me; in fact is probably is a peculiarity of my personality. But I believe that there is no possible payoff large enough to ameliorate the way Trent was treated. No possible compensation for slavery, no matter how supposedly benign. Period. If it was me, I'd be a ticking time bomb in their organization.

[Snufkin]

Various people would have reactions ranging from "my fondest dream has come true" to "kill -- kill -- kill." It's already been stated that they are studying people in advance, so we can presume that they would do their best to avoid "ticking time bombs." (scotts13 is entirely safe.) They aren't grabbing random people off the street.

Their recruitment process sure would be a lot easier if they had M.I.B. "flashy thingy" memory erasure devices, wouldn't it? Then they could describe everything and give potential recruits an informed choice, erasing the memory of those who were not interested.

I'm enjoying this discussion. Don't make the mistake of thinking that *I* approve of everything they do. The greatest story ever told may be "pure good vs. pure evil", but not every story has to fit that template.

[BlackWolfe Coyoten]

It's already been stated that they are studying people in advance, so we can presume that they would do their best to avoid "ticking time bombs." (scotts13 is entirely safe.) They aren't grabbing random people off the street.

I reiterate, are we ever going to find out some of the criteria?

[Snufkin]

I reiterate, are we ever going to find out some of the criteria?

From strip 15: "Trent, you were chosen carefully. You're talented and crave adventure, but you have no family and few friends. "

They choose by the talents they need. If you need a high energy physicist, look for one with other useful traits. Someone who might like an adventurous life is good. People with lots of friends and family are bad, as they would be certain to be unhappy losing their old life. People with severe medical conditions would be good. A certain flexibility of thought is required to adjust to such a strange situation. Certainly many transgendered males would jump at the offer, but they would also need the technical skills they seek.

The ideal recruit would be something like a orphaned, quadriplegic, transgendered male with multiple PhD degrees in the subjects you need right now. Good luck finding one of those.

All in all, they tend to be intelligent, creative, adventuresome loners, brought into a situation where there are other people similar to themselves. They WANT people who will end up being happy, a small sample chosen from the billions of people in the world. They truly believe that they are doing favors for people. (Obviously, there is room for dissent on this issue!)

There are other considerations that will eventually be revealed.

[BlackWolfe Coyoten]

Ah, so it's conditional - makes sense.

There are other considerations that will eventually be revealed.

Saweeet.

[scotts13]

... would do their best to avoid "ticking time bombs." (scotts13 is entirely safe.)

Yes, but are they? I may just decide Earth can do fine on it's own (Heh, heh, heh..) Seriously, I wouldn't hurt a fly. I like flies.

Their recruitment process sure would be a lot easier if they had M.I.B. "flashy thingy" memory erasure devices, wouldn't it? Then they could describe everything and give potential recruits an informed choice, erasing the memory of those who were not interested.

Actually, I had wondered about that. After all, no advance selection process can be perfect; in the absence of a Neuralizer, I guess those who can't be assimilated just... disappear. Seems consistent with their other practices.

[Loriana]

Assuming I didn't flip out and do the killing spree thing, in Trent's shoes I'd play along and try to bring the Angels down from within. The involuntary gender change alone would warrant that. Being me, I'd probably be blinded by happiness at first, but might still come around to the same decision eventually. I think changing someone's gender (when they don't actually want it...) is worse than rape, and I have a pretty low opinion of rape...

I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with this.

[Kaosgirl]

I'm curious what criteria they used to choose Trent, now that you mention it.

And yes, it is a rather harsh trade-off, no doubt. And yes, Trent has every right to be pissed off about it. However, he can't.

Never felt a cold rage before? The flight or fight impulse doesn't play into that at all, at least not for me.

From strip 15: "Trent, you were chosen carefully. You're talented and crave adventure, but you have no family and few friends. "

They choose by the talents they need. If you need a high energy physicist, look for one with other useful traits. Someone who might like an adventurous life is good. People with lots of friends and family are bad, as they would be certain to be unhappy losing their old life. People with severe medical conditions would be good. A certain flexibility of thought is required to adjust to such a strange situation. Certainly many transgendered males would jump at the offer, but they would also need the technical skills they seek.

All in all, they tend to be intelligent, creative, adventuresome loners, brought into a situation where there are other people similar to themselves.

You just described me, and my moral issues *can* be let go under the right circumstances... Where do I submit my application?

[Frith Ra]

I know several people who wish they knew the answer to that question.

[Kaosgirl]

I know several people who wish they knew the answer to that question.

Well I figure in the unlikely event there really was something similar to them, they'd probably be running forum searches to look for likely candidates. So it couldn't hurt to get my name out...