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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
Scotty

NP, Friday June 23, 2017

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Yes, no problem ; At that point, Edward was still director of paranormal. So, when a member of DGB (Edward) is informed about some potential problem for national security, he must inform the director (Edward) so the director may decide what to do. Obviously, both the mentioned member and the director needs to write some report about it, which Edward certainly did.

Edward would have likely had to tell Assistant Director Liefeld who is Edward's boss

Not necessary - or at least not beforehand. (Assistant Director Liefeld might be one of people reading Edwards reports.)

I mean, he obviously didn't (unless he contacted him by phone while Tedd was waiting), but he likely didn't break protocol or anything by not doing that.

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6 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Can Edward's 'Summon Charts" spell also summon reports?

That would be so useful in my job.

I thought you could just summon some of your priest-mathematicians. Or do they insist on writing their reports in Hieratic?

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1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

I thought you could just summon some of your priest-mathematicians. Or do they insist on writing their reports in Hieratic?

For what they do, those people are very good at their jobs.

Unfortunately, they insist that all official records must be carved in stone by hand.  And even a divinely appointed monarch is no match for the fundamental force of bureaucracy.

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8 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Not necessary - or at least not beforehand. (Assistant Director Liefeld might be one of people reading Edwards reports.)

I mean, he obviously didn't (unless he contacted him by phone while Tedd was waiting), but he likely didn't break protocol or anything by not doing that.

I'm just saying Edward was describe as the head of the paranormal division, but is that for the whole country, or just the upper midwest US? We don't know for sure, but Assistant Director Liefeld comes across as the point at which the paranormal division attaches to the rest of the FBI, and considering he had to make a new division to transfer Edward to, I gotta believe there are other divisions that work alongside the paranormal, Edward did seem to separate paranormal from aliens when Wolf questioned it, so maybe there's a separate alien division that has called upon Edward's expertise a few times.

Still I don't think Edward would be as isolated in his career that he needn't worry about who to report to.

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3 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

For what they do, those people are very good at their jobs.

Unfortunately, they insist that all official records must be carved in stone by hand.  And even a divinely appointed monarch is no match for the fundamental force of bureaucracy.

Hire Castela. She's showing some skill at hand-carving stone. Although it might be wise to have one of your priest-scientists run a Geiger counter over a sample of her work, because she uses a high-energy technique.

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3 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

For what they do, those people are very good at their jobs.

Unfortunately, they insist that all official records must be carved in stone by hand.  And even a divinely appointed monarch is no match for the fundamental force of bureaucracy.

I can see the problem. Hey, maybe that was the reason IBM told the inventors of the photocopying machine that they could see no use for such a device in any office. They still had their hearts set on stone tablets and even Xerox's finest still can't mass replicate these.

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15 hours ago, hkmaly said:

That would make them aliens. But William is born and raised US citizen. That means he's under US law practically by definition..

Publicly as "human" american citizens they are subject to US law.  Correct.  Privately as uryouoms, they might also be subject to Uryouom law or some limited parts of it.

15 hours ago, hkmaly said:

They might been the sort of believers who are compensating lack of actual knowledge of their religion with fanaticism.

You may have to explain how that works.  It's hard for me to understand how a fanatic can hear "this thing is bad" and then go out and build one of them.

15 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It game ME the idea that there are just few Uryuoms on Earth and there is basically no market for CMD on Earth to speak about, so any CMD on Earth was bought on parent planet and then brought here.

There is a need for CMDs on Earth because Earth hasn't had First Contact and Uryouoms (among others) need to blend in.  If there's no market for CMDs on Earth it's because some other mechanism is filling the gap and providing relatively easy access.  The people taking care of Grace's siblings should have that access for Vladia if it were needed or even wanted.  Will says CMDs are "common" which should equate to some kind of easy access.

16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

So, it's not because the EARTH (or Uryuoms on Earth) would be under that law ; it's because the MARKET would be under that law.

Are you suggesting that the Uyouom homeworld would restrict exporting legal-to-own CMD devices to Earth?  If so you'd have to break down the motivation for that.

16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

On the other hand, the conversation is FILLED with stating the obvious. Both William and Edward are saying stuff which would never be mentioned in normal conversation and this may be part of it.

PS: Just got other explanation: Edward might not really care about breaking the law, BUT he might imply that illegal device might be not safe to use because people building illegal devices often doesn't understand concepts of safety.

Of course, the device being build by Williams parents might not provide any guarantees it's safety features are matching standard safety laws either ...

I just assumed Will's parent built it from a kit or at least a pre-existing blueprint, used off-the-shelf-software, etc. 

16 hours ago, Scotty said:

Edward asked if the TFG that Will had was illegal, Will explained it wasn't illegal for him to own it because they have grandfather clauses on their planet as well which prevented persecution of those who had already owned such devices prior to the laws, similar to the Federal Assault Weapons Ban that was passed in 1994 and was still in effect at the time of Tam et Tedd which makes me wonder if Dan intentionally referenced the ban or not, I dunno.

Still the fact that William specifically mentions the parent planet in reference to sale of the device, I assumed that use of the device on the parent planet is restricted as well, but Earth being outside of Uryuom jurisdiction would make it easier for William to get help in using the device. Of course there still needs to be secrecy because of national security concerns, but it's still quite possible that DGB knows about the whole thing and made it Edward's responsibility to ensure there are no issues.

That or Will and Gill had previous dealings with Verres and went to him directly.

The Assault Weapons Ban predates EGS by 8 years.  Since Dan started EGS in high school in 2002 the Assault Weapons Ban would likely have been news when Dan was 8 - 10 years old.  I'd actually find it a bit strange if Dan were referencing it in 2003.

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Just now, Vorlonagent said:

Publicly as "human" american citizens they are subject to US law.  Correct.  Privately as uryouoms, they might also be subject to Uryouom law or some limited parts of it.

Maybe, I dunno, I do know that William stated that he could run for President (though he expected to lose by a landslide) which would also mean he can vote in US elections. I'll concede that dual citizenship would be likely for William, but if he's primarily a US citizen with a secondary Uryuom citizenship, then it's possible he'd fall under US Law first and Uryoum law when he's on the parent planet or if there's some unusual circumstances like relations between Uryuoms and Humans going sour and the parent planet requiring all Uryuoms to leave Earth or something.

Just now, Vorlonagent said:

I just assumed Will's parent built it from a kit or at least a pre-existing blueprint, used off-the-shelf-software, etc. 

It's possible that William's parent worked in the field of cosmetic modification devices and built those for a living. Kinda like how auto manufacturer employees can get better deals on the cars they build, William's parent was able to get one of the CMD he made.

Just now, Vorlonagent said:

That or Will and Gill had previous dealings with Verres and went to him directly.

Oh I don't doubt that Edward knew William and Gillian beforehand, Edward might have helped them get jobs or something, maybe Edward helped get William's parents settled in on Earth.

Just now, Vorlonagent said:

The Assault Weapons Ban predates EGS by 8 years.  Since Dan started EGS in high school in 2002 the Assault Weapons Ban would likely have been news when Dan was 8 - 10 years old.  I'd actually find it a bit strange if Dan were referencing it in 2003.

The ban had 2 more years to go when Dan started the comic, and there was a fair amount of debate about whether the ban should be extended, but that didn't go through so the ban ended in 2004. It's possible that the ban was talked about in one of his classes in high school, or maybe relatives discussed it at Christmas or Thanksgiving (My family always talks current events and politics and such when we're all together) so I can see Dan getting the idea of the TFG's grandfather status from that kind of thing.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Maybe, I dunno, I do know that William stated that he could run for President (though he expected to lose by a landslide) which would also mean he can vote in US elections. I'll concede that dual citizenship would be likely for William, but if he's primarily a US citizen with a secondary Uryuom citizenship, then it's possible he'd fall under US Law first and Uryoum law when he's on the parent planet or if there's some unusual circumstances like relations between Uryuoms and Humans going sour and the parent planet requiring all Uryuoms to leave Earth or something.

That's the thing.  We don't know the legal status of an Uryouom living on earth.  Outside the paranormal community it's obvious.  Inside...we don't know what agreements exist that govern the paranormal side of the fence.  We have not idea why William was concerned about Uryouom law while living on earth, but he obviously was.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

It's possible that William's parent worked in the field of cosmetic modification devices and built those for a living. Kinda like how auto manufacturer employees can get better deals on the cars they build, William's parent was able to get one of the CMD he made.

That works.  Got one hot off the assembly line he worked on. 

Or got the parts from work and made his own. 

Or maybe building devices that work off Uryouom energy is like building a PC is on Earth.  Maybe Will's parent had an unrelated job that got him discount CMD parts.

All of these work.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

The ban had 2 more years to go when Dan started the comic, and there was a fair amount of debate about whether the ban should be extended, but that didn't go through so the ban ended in 2004. It's possible that the ban was talked about in one of his classes in high school, or maybe relatives discussed it at Christmas or Thanksgiving (My family always talks current events and politics and such when we're all together) so I can see Dan getting the idea of the TFG's grandfather status from that kind of thing.

I'll recognize the possibility but I'm not sold on the probability of influence.  Dan plays his politics close to the vest (which I appreciate) but gun control for or against never seemed to be a "thing" with him.  Issues of gender do, hence the religious leaders who got OOP CMDs banned.  I see an accent mark on "religious" there, which is as close to a political opinion in-comic as I can remember Dan ever doing.

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10 hours ago, Scotty said:
18 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Not necessary - or at least not beforehand. (Assistant Director Liefeld might be one of people reading Edwards reports.)

I mean, he obviously didn't (unless he contacted him by phone while Tedd was waiting), but he likely didn't break protocol or anything by not doing that.

I'm just saying Edward was describe as the head of the paranormal division, but is that for the whole country, or just the upper midwest US? We don't know for sure, but Assistant Director Liefeld comes across as the point at which the paranormal division attaches to the rest of the FBI, and considering he had to make a new division to transfer Edward to, I gotta believe there are other divisions that work alongside the paranormal, Edward did seem to separate paranormal from aliens when Wolf questioned it, so maybe there's a separate alien division that has called upon Edward's expertise a few times.

Technically, it might be just Moperville, but yes I would expect bigger region.

Considering Edward was dealing with the scientists who created Grace, unless he was transfered from aliens to paranormal, I would say his division covered both. BUT agent Wolf might not have the clearance to know about it at that point.

I'm not sure how would you divide the divisions anyway: finding out if something is extraterrestrial or magic would often be major part of investigation.

Also, his new diplomacy position seem to involve dealing with armies which definitely seem alien.

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

Still I don't think Edward would be as isolated in his career that he needn't worry about who to report to.

Considering the necessary secrecy, the protocol for finding out potential problem for national security certainly isn't "hop on phone and inform at least ten people". Also, TF gun is apparently not seen as serious problem, which might mean he usually deals with worse. Therefore, it's quite possible that all his reporting about that was in writing and to be stored in archive.

Of course, if something serious would happen, he would need to report it to superiors, which likely include Assistant Director Liefeld. But part of his job is to identify what is serious and not bother superiors (who have lot of other work to do) with trivialities.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

That would make them aliens. But William is born and raised US citizen. That means he's under US law practically by definition..

Publicly as "human" american citizens they are subject to US law.  Correct.  Privately as uryouoms, they might also be subject to Uryouom law or some limited parts of it.

I disagree. They would be under some additional laws provided by secret organizations with knowledge about aliens (possibly DGB, or maybe the non-regional variant of it), but those are unlikely to be directly copied from laws of Uryuom parent planet.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

That's the thing.  We don't know the legal status of an Uryouom living on earth.  Outside the paranormal community it's obvious.  Inside...we don't know what agreements exist that govern the paranormal side of the fence.  We have not idea why William was concerned about Uryouom law while living on earth, but he obviously was.

Unless William is lawyer, he may be concerned just because he himself is not sure how it legally works.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

They might been the sort of believers who are compensating lack of actual knowledge of their religion with fanaticism.

You may have to explain how that works.  It's hard for me to understand how a fanatic can hear "this thing is bad" and then go out and build one of them.

Of course not. I was explaining how they might not hear "this thing is bad" until it hit the news around the time the law was being made, because while the religion position on the programming language is based on the religion, it is probably not directly written in main holy book or something so lay believers might not know about it.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It game ME the idea that there are just few Uryuoms on Earth and there is basically no market for CMD on Earth to speak about, so any CMD on Earth was bought on parent planet and then brought here.

There is a need for CMDs on Earth because Earth hasn't had First Contact and Uryouoms (among others) need to blend in.  If there's no market for CMDs on Earth it's because some other mechanism is filling the gap and providing relatively easy access.  The people taking care of Grace's siblings should have that access for Vladia if it were needed or even wanted.  Will says CMDs are "common" which should equate to some kind of easy access.

Technically Earth DID had First Contact, just not the official one :)

If every Uryuom on Earth already HAS the CMD (because he or his parents brought it from parent planet), there may be no need for filling mechanism. If Uryuom on Earth will want new CMD, he will just visit parent planet and buy it there, or maybe order it from parent planet online.

People taking care for Vladia meanwhile are part of organization and if they would need CMD they would need to fill some forms and explain why, because bureaucracy.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Are you suggesting that the Uyouom homeworld would restrict exporting legal-to-own CMD devices to Earth?  If so you'd have to break down the motivation for that.

There is no official trade between Earth and Uryuom homeword, therefore no exports and no exports restriction. Any item moved between Uryuom homeword and Earth is already in ownership of person who lives on earth or organization from earth (like DGB).

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:
2 hours ago, Scotty said:

It's possible that William's parent worked in the field of cosmetic modification devices and built those for a living. Kinda like how auto manufacturer employees can get better deals on the cars they build, William's parent was able to get one of the CMD he made.

That works.  Got one hot off the assembly line he worked on. 

Or got the parts from work and made his own. 

Or maybe building devices that work off Uryouom energy is like building a PC is on Earth.  Maybe Will's parent had an unrelated job that got him discount CMD parts.

Given that Tedd was able to work on modifying the TF gun without factory equipment, this is sort of given. The device certainly contains at least some microchips, some sort of battery and the beam generator (probably lot of other stuff as well), and all of these are possible to obtain separately, either by buying them or by working in the field. Tedd wouldn't be able to create any of those in his basement, his limits are likely combining the parts and soldering them on board. I'm not sure what he made the case from, actually (the original device looked different) - but maybe it was water gun or some other toy.

But that wasn't what I was speaking about. People building illegal CMD are using existing parts as well. There are certainly ways how you can build something dangerous from existing parts - for example, using battery with higher voltage would certainly make the device dangerous. So would using battery with not enough energy to finish transformation, likely. Overclockers are raising voltage for PC components all the time, it's just that with PC, it's hard to do anything worse than damage some of the component. (It's worse with phones - Li-ion battery can explode).

Williams CMD was actually loaded with HUGE amount of safeties, including not transforming pregnant people, but those were certainly part of SOFTWARE and therefore not included in one of the parts.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

I see an accent mark on "religious" there, which is as close to a political opinion in-comic as I can remember Dan ever doing.

I would assume Dan has more political opinions than is apparent from the comic.

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37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I disagree. They would be under some additional laws provided by secret organizations with knowledge about aliens (possibly DGB, or maybe the non-regional variant of it), but those are unlikely to be directly copied from laws of Uryuom parent planet.

Unless William is lawyer, he may be concerned just because he himself is not sure how it legally works.

I think Will would have at least a high-level idea of the legalities of his existence.  He would have some basic understanding about whether and how much homeworld law applies to him.  The fact that he is concerned about it, suggests but does not prove, that homeworld law bears on Will getting help with his OOP_CMD and him turning to humans for help with what is essentially an Uryouom problem.  otherwise, as I have said before, why explain it?

Unless we write this all off to less-than-perfect world-building on Dan's part and then ignore it, we have to deal in some way with the fact that homeworld law was important enough in some way for Will to bother mentioning it.

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Technically, it might be just Moperville, but yes I would expect bigger region.

True, but a difference that makes no difference is no difference.

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

If every Uryuom on Earth already HAS the CMD (because he or his parents brought it from parent planet), there may be no need for filling mechanism. If Uryuom on Earth will want new CMD, he will just visit parent planet and buy it there, or maybe order it from parent planet online.

People taking care for Vladia meanwhile are part of organization and if they would need CMD they would need to fill some forms and explain why, because bureaucracy.

There is no official trade between Earth and Uryuom homeword, therefore no exports and no exports restriction. Any item moved between Uryuom homeword and Earth is already in ownership of person who lives on earth or organization from earth (like DGB).

...Vladia's handlers could just ask an Uryouom, "Hey can I borrow your CMD?"  The smaller the paranormal community is, the more closely-knit it will be.  And Vladia is a greater seynoulu.  She's a part of the extended Uryouom world.  To say nothing of the rest of the greater seynoulu community. 

If paperwork forms a significant block to the movement of goods officially, an unofficial market is cr4eated.  If uryouoms can buy CMDs freely from the homeworld why can't human institutions on the paranormal side on life on Earth?  Why wouldn't an enterprising Uryouom set her or himself up as a middleman, middlebeing, miiddleuryouom, something like that, buying and selling?

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Given that Tedd was able to work on modifying the TF gun without factory equipment, this is sort of given. The device certainly contains at least some microchips, some sort of battery and the beam generator (probably lot of other stuff as well), and all of these are possible to obtain separately, either by buying them or by working in the field. Tedd wouldn't be able to create any of those in his basement, his limits are likely combining the parts and soldering them on board. I'm not sure what he made the case from, actually (the original device looked different) - but maybe it was water gun or some other toy

In 2017 Tedd could 3D print an exterior for his second TF gun.  Not in 2003 though.  Perhaps Ed Verres found an empty shell for Tedd or had access to 3D printing.  Whatever Ed Verres' personal feelings on Tedd and his feminine transformations, he supported Tedd's actual work by bringing home materials Tedd needed to build his second TF gun and probably allow Tedd to make his watches and other magitech equipment..

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

But that wasn't what I was speaking about. People building illegal CMD are using existing parts as well. There are certainly ways how you can build something dangerous from existing parts - for example, using battery with higher voltage would certainly make the device dangerous. So would using battery with not enough energy to finish transformation, likely. Overclockers are raising voltage for PC components all the time, it's just that with PC, it's hard to do anything worse than damage some of the component. (It's worse with phones - Li-ion battery can explode).

Williams CMD was actually loaded with HUGE amount of safeties, including not transforming pregnant people, but those were certainly part of SOFTWARE and therefore not included in one of the parts.

Generally agreed.  The large number of safeties in Will's TF gun is one of the reasons I thought it used off-the-shelf-software, which in turn led to the idea of uryouoms building homebrew TF guns and perhaps other devices that use Uryouom energy the way we might build a PC from parts.

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Just now, hkmaly said:

Considering the necessary secrecy, the protocol for finding out potential problem for national security certainly isn't "hop on phone and inform at least ten people". Also, TF gun is apparently not seen as serious problem, which might mean he usually deals with worse. Therefore, it's quite possible that all his reporting about that was in writing and to be stored in archive.

Of course, if something serious would happen, he would need to report it to superiors, which likely include Assistant Director Liefeld. But part of his job is to identify what is serious and not bother superiors (who have lot of other work to do) with trivialities.

I just figured that if Edward was concerned about the issue of national security, hiding the fact that he's in possession of a CMD like that from his superiors wouldn't be a good idea. Pandora told Sarah that Edward has been giving full disclosure of what members of the Main Eight are capable of, at first I thought she could have been lying about that, but when she repeated her concern about Sarah telling Edward about her spell after we learned more about her motives, I'm pretty certain she was telling the truth. So I really do think that Edward would have filed something stating that he was in possession of a CMD for the purpose of creating human forms for the Uryuoms William and Gillian. If he didn't and his superiors found out later, through something that Tedd might have done, Edward could be in serious trouble. At least if his superiors knew about it, they'd have made sure Edward had some plan to deal with anything that might happen. The events of Sister would surely have had serious repercussions if that was the first time Leifeld heard about Edward's son playing with a CMD.

Just now, Vorlonagent said:

In 2017 Tedd could 3D print an exterior for his second TF gun.  Not in 2003 though.  Perhaps Ed Verres found an empty shell for Tedd or had access to 3D printing.  Whatever Ed Verres' personal feelings on Tedd and his feminine transformations, he supported Tedd's actual work by bringing home materials Tedd needed to build his second TF gun and probably allow Tedd to make his watches and other magitech equipment..

Tedd doesn't need a 3d printer if he has access to other types of fabrication method, like a metal lathe,  CNC machine and a soldering gun. That shell doesn't have to be plastic.

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1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

I think Will would have at least a high-level idea of the legalities of his existence.  He would have some basic understanding about whether and how much homeworld law applies to him.  The fact that he is concerned about it, suggests but does not prove, that homeworld law bears on Will getting help with his OOP_CMD and him turning to humans for help with what is essentially an Uryouom problem.  otherwise, as I have said before, why explain it?

Unless we write this all off to less-than-perfect world-building on Dan's part and then ignore it, we have to deal in some way with the fact that homeworld law was important enough in some way for Will to bother mentioning it.

As I keep saying: the homeworld law might be relevant not because it applies to HIM, but because it applies to OTHERS - namely, Uryuoms who might be able to help otherwise, but are on Uryuom parent planet, not on Earth.

For start, he can't just buy "finished" CMD with similar parameters as this one, because he doesn't have connection with Uryuom illegal markets and the official markets can't sell it. But he has this one, which he knows can do it, but only with some additional programming he is not able to do.

It would be harder to explain why he can't ask some Uryuom programmer (from parent planet - there are none on Earth) to help with that, but it's possible that they either are not allowed to work on this under the terms of the law (because it can be seen as building device in violation of the law despite being just upgrade) or because they would reject work like that based on suspicion it's related to future building of illegal devices.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

...Vladia's handlers could just ask an Uryouom, "Hey can I borrow your CMD?"  The smaller the paranormal community is, the more closely-knit it will be.  And Vladia is a greater seynoulu.

Because they are not personally interested in the case so much? I suspect that Vladia's handlers are not THAT much used to Uryuoms. Wait: there is Grace's father between them. Ok, HE should know better. Unless he is personally interested TOO MUCH and looking at Vladia he decided she will be better like this without the additional question if she wants to try CMD.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

To say nothing of the rest of the greater seynoulu community. 

What community? Damien didn't find anyone. Grace and Vladia may be only greater seyunolu on Earth.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

If paperwork forms a significant block to the movement of goods officially, an unofficial market is cr4eated.  If uryouoms can buy CMDs freely from the homeworld why can't human institutions on the paranormal side on life on Earth?  Why wouldn't an enterprising Uryouom set her or himself up as a middleman, middlebeing, miiddleuryouom, something like that, buying and selling?

Because the number of Uryuom on Earth is too small to be interesting for some middleman.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Generally agreed.  The large number of safeties in Will's TF gun is one of the reasons I thought it used off-the-shelf-software, which in turn led to the idea of uryouoms building homebrew TF guns and perhaps other devices that use Uryouom energy the way we might build a PC from parts.

I don't think the safeties from other CMDs would be compatible.

Wait: what if Will's parents were working in some company ON building more general CMD, but the company stopped the project when the law passed and made actually selling the product impossible? The CMD Will had could either be official prototype which they still owned due to how Uryuom law works around that, or something they build themselves using the software from the project. (I suspect this wouldn't work under US law, but Uryuom law may be different.)

The CMD was close to finish, so most (if not all) stuff expected to be in official product were already done, BUT it wasn't actually being sold yet - the law might've actually been passed as reaction on this project to prevent it being finished.

It would explain why they couldn't upgrade it - they build the hardware, but the software was from someone else who they lost contact with between creating the CMD and their son needing it.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Considering the necessary secrecy, the protocol for finding out potential problem for national security certainly isn't "hop on phone and inform at least ten people". Also, TF gun is apparently not seen as serious problem, which might mean he usually deals with worse. Therefore, it's quite possible that all his reporting about that was in writing and to be stored in archive.

Of course, if something serious would happen, he would need to report it to superiors, which likely include Assistant Director Liefeld. But part of his job is to identify what is serious and not bother superiors (who have lot of other work to do) with trivialities.

I just figured that if Edward was concerned about the issue of national security, hiding the fact that he's in possession of a CMD like that from his superiors wouldn't be a good idea. Pandora told Sarah that Edward has been giving full disclosure of what members of the Main Eight are capable of, at first I thought she could have been lying about that, but when she repeated her concern about Sarah telling Edward about her spell after we learned more about her motives, I'm pretty certain she was telling the truth. So I really do think that Edward would have filed something stating that he was in possession of a CMD for the purpose of creating human forms for the Uryuoms William and Gillian. If he didn't and his superiors found out later, through something that Tedd might have done, Edward could be in serious trouble. At least if his superiors knew about it, they'd have made sure Edward had some plan to deal with anything that might happen. The events of Sister would surely have had serious repercussions if that was the first time Leifeld heard about Edward's son playing with a CMD.

Of course he's not hiding it. I keep repeating that he DID wrote reports about that BUT it was afterwards. On his position, it's not "ask what to do", it's "decide what to do and be ready to justify it in case some superior reading the report afterwards would find the decision incorrect".

Also, I sort of suspect that there are few things his superiors may not know about, BUT if they point that out, Edward can just say "I clearly reported about this in this report, that report, here and here, not my problem you just skimmed it and didn't read it". But obviously, the major stuff like his son being in possession of experimental CMD technology is not this case. I'm sure all Tedd progress with gun is clearly written in the file "Uryuom CMD research, civilian researcher 324" and the list of civilian researchers clearly states that civilian researcher 324 is named Tedd Verres. Of course, those two files have different clearance, but Assistant Director Liefeld have access to both and probably even asked Edward about why he listed his son as researcher - and was satisfied with answer.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

In 2017 Tedd could 3D print an exterior for his second TF gun.  Not in 2003 though.  Perhaps Ed Verres found an empty shell for Tedd or had access to 3D printing.  Whatever Ed Verres' personal feelings on Tedd and his feminine transformations, he supported Tedd's actual work by bringing home materials Tedd needed to build his second TF gun and probably allow Tedd to make his watches and other magitech equipment..

Tedd doesn't need a 3d printer if he has access to other types of fabrication method, like a metal lathe,  CNC machine and a soldering gun. That shell doesn't have to be plastic.

I don't think he has any of that in his basement. On the other hand, he may have ACCESS to it - without the Uryuom technology inside, he can likely get the case done by someone else or like lend the machine and make it, nothing secret about that. Only after putting the technology inside it will turn into something top secret he can't show to anyone not checked with his father.

Note that he is not MAKING his watches. He's buying them. They are supposed to be gadget watches for prizes at arcades. And he's using hacked game console accessories for research.

 

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Just now, hkmaly said:

Also, I sort of suspect that there are few things his superiors may not know about, BUT if they point that out, Edward can just say "I clearly reported about this in this report, that report, here and here, not my problem you just skimmed it and didn't read it".

That's rather like taking the HHGTTG approach isn't it? "It was on display, sure it was in the basement behind a bunch of stuff but it was there for you to see if you happened to find it."

I'm not saying that Edward had to report it the second Will and Gill left the house, but if Edward didn't report it within the week, It'd probably be considered dereliction of duty.

Just now, hkmaly said:

Note that he is not MAKING his watches. He's buying them. They are supposed to be gadget watches for prizes at arcades.

I was mainly talking about the TFG, and it would likely apply to the Gauntlet as well, as for the watches, yeah Tedd can probably get everything he needs for those from arcades, radio shack/circuit city, or cannibalizing video game peripherals, and only the soldering gun would get used.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Also, I sort of suspect that there are few things his superiors may not know about, BUT if they point that out, Edward can just say "I clearly reported about this in this report, that report, here and here, not my problem you just skimmed it and didn't read it".

That's rather like taking the HHGTTG approach isn't it? "It was on display, sure it was in the basement behind a bunch of stuff but it was there for you to see if you happened to find it."

HHGTTG didn't INVENTED that.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I'm not saying that Edward had to report it the second Will and Gill left the house, but if Edward didn't report it within the week, It'd probably be considered dereliction of duty.

In that case we are not in conflict. This thread started with you saying DGB made it Edward responsibility. I was just pointing out that while technically true, if was Edward making the decision (as part of his director position) and if you don't count the detail about his son being involved there was nothing exceptional about it. Sure, he wrote report about that (and possibly was asked about details if his superiors though he omitted something), just like he wrote report about all those other cases.

Of course, Assistant Director Liefeld did noticed that Edward is being more and more personally involved and it was the reason he removed him from that position later. Or at least the stated reason.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Note that he is not MAKING his watches. He's buying them. They are supposed to be gadget watches for prizes at arcades.

I was mainly talking about the TFG, and it would likely apply to the Gauntlet as well, as for the watches, yeah Tedd can probably get everything he needs for those from arcades, radio shack/circuit city, or cannibalizing video game peripherals, and only the soldering gun would get used.

He's combining. Even the TF gun might have some "normal" parts from radio shack/circuit city, although obviously the key parts are Uryuom design and Edward brought him those.

48 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I expect that Tedd makes some major component changes to the watches.

Not necessary. He MIGHT be putting something inside, but it's also possible he only needs to cast spell on them - I mean, that the programming he's doing with his glove is technically using one spell catalyst to cast spell on mundane item to turn it into another spell catalyst.

(Dan DID called the glove glove of enchanting recently ...)

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Just now, hkmaly said:

Of course, Assistant Director Liefeld did noticed that Edward is being more and more personally involved and it was the reason he removed him from that position later. Or at least the stated reason.

This point does raise the question of was there another motive for Edward's "promotion"? Does Liefeld know what Arthur was talking about in the last meeting? Did he know about it before the incident at the school and felt that Edward could be an issue and needed to get him out of the way so to speak? Did Arthur manipulate Liefeld into transferring Edward because he may have been a threat to whatever plans he has? Or was it truly a concern that Edward was too emotionally attached to people in Moperville to be an effective agent and that Arthur was just unlucky in his acceptance of coming out of retirement to suddenly have to deal with the stuff happening?

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Perhaps the reason Will's parents stopped working on the device is that they retired and did not want to continue that work as a hobby.  If Will expressed interest early, they may have gotten him parts and plans as they were working, but those sources dried up when the parents retired.

It is quite likely that Will never came right out and told the parents the plans he had for the device, knowing the laws and culture.  If Will was prosecuted, the parent's would be able to honestly say "we didn't know".

For similar reasons, Will and Gil can not openly approach another Uryuom on Earth and discuss what they are doing with the device.  I'm certain that there are Uryuoms on Earth who hold similar opinions to the views expressed by Will and Gil.  But considering the Uryuom culture, they can't be absolutely sure that another Uryuom would not say the wrong thing to someone else.  Even going through Edward was a risk.

I can't even guess what would have happened if they contacted Arthur first.

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39 minutes ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Of course, Assistant Director Liefeld did noticed that Edward is being more and more personally involved and it was the reason he removed him from that position later. Or at least the stated reason.

This point does raise the question of was there another motive for Edward's "promotion"? Does Liefeld know what Arthur was talking about in the last meeting? Did he know about it before the incident at the school and felt that Edward could be an issue and needed to get him out of the way so to speak? Did Arthur manipulate Liefeld into transferring Edward because he may have been a threat to whatever plans he has? Or was it truly a concern that Edward was too emotionally attached to people in Moperville to be an effective agent and that Arthur was just unlucky in his acceptance of coming out of retirement to suddenly have to deal with the stuff happening?

Yes. Exactly what I was implying.

Doesn't even need to be complicated. If Arthur Arthur talked with Liefeld about his concerns with Edward behaviour and maybe suggested that diplomacy position, it could be enough to make Liefeld decide he replaces Edward instead of just giving him dressing down for his inappropriate behaviour.

20 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

It is quite likely that Will never came right out and told the parents the plans he had for the device, knowing the laws and culture.  If Will was prosecuted, the parent's would be able to honestly say "we didn't know".

Will wouldn't be prosecuted. Still, if his parents are or parent planet, talking about stuff like this might not be in their best interest. Interplanetary communication may not be as private as expected.

20 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

For similar reasons, Will and Gil can not openly approach another Uryuom on Earth and discuss what they are doing with the device.  I'm certain that there are Uryuoms on Earth who hold similar opinions to the views expressed by Will and Gil.  But considering the Uryuom culture, they can't be absolutely sure that another Uryuom would not say the wrong thing to someone else.  Even going through Edward was a risk.

Yes again - religion is involved, so someone could take it personally and do something despite them not doing anything illegal. Just casting some slur on them might be hard to deal with, as it could expel them from Uryuom community.

With Edward, they might at least assume he is not member of that Uryuom religion.

20 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

I can't even guess what would have happened if they contacted Arthur first.

Probably nothing - Arthur would just not help them. Maybe he would confiscate the CMD just to be on safe side (and to research if it can be used for DGB.) Sure, they didn't mind leaving the device to Tedd, but it was because they know they can come when they need it. (And yes, that research happened. I'm sure someone in DGB went over what Tedd did with clone form and compared it with other options they have for changing look.)

 

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4 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Probably nothing - Arthur would just not help them. Maybe he would confiscate the CMD just to be on safe side (and to research if it can be used for DGB.) Sure, they didn't mind leaving the device to Tedd, but it was because they know they can come when they need it. (And yes, that research happened. I'm sure someone in DGB went over what Tedd did with clone form and compared it with other options they have for changing look.)

Tedd recently showed fear over losing the TFG and other tech that he's worked on, yeah he might have been referring to his dad taking it away, but he could also have been referring to DGB as a whole deciding to confiscate it. If they do know about the tech, one of the main reasons that they haven't confiscated it might be because it serves a redundant purpose at the moment, either they already have similar devices that do the job, or they have wizards capable of illusions or morphs that do the job. If the system changes, those wizards are now useless and if they don't have their own CMD, then they'll be wanting Tedd's tech so that they can at least have the ability to disguise agents.

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19 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Tedd recently showed fear over losing the TFG and other tech that he's worked on, yeah he might have been referring to his dad taking it away, but he could also have been referring to DGB as a whole deciding to confiscate it.

Actually what he said sounded definitely like DGB as whole confiscating it.

20 minutes ago, Scotty said:

If the system changes, those wizards are now useless and if they don't have their own CMD

They do. Tedd now has two TF guns and is capable of building more. Unless he was deliberately hiding how from his own father, the instructions are on file in DGB. If it didn't worked, they would be more likely to "strongarm" Tedd into building more than just confiscating the two he has - two guns wouldn't be enough.

Of course, Tedd may not realize that. Or, it's possible the reason they confiscate it wouldn't be they need it, but because with the spell-based identification not working, they can't afford such technology not be under tight control.

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7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

They do. Tedd now has two TF guns and is capable of building more. Unless he was deliberately hiding how from his own father, the instructions are on file in DGB. If it didn't worked, they would be more likely to "strongarm" Tedd into building more than just confiscating the two he has - two guns wouldn't be enough.

I'm not convinced that Tedd learned how to build the second TFG by using schematics of the original. I think he reverse engineered it by way of taking it apart and putting it back together again numerous times.

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11 hours ago, Scotty said:

Tedd recently showed fear over losing the TFG and other tech that he's worked on, yeah he might have been referring to his dad taking it away, but he could also have been referring to DGB as a whole deciding to confiscate it. If they do know about the tech, one of the main reasons that they haven't confiscated it might be because it serves a redundant purpose at the moment, either they already have similar devices that do the job, or they have wizards capable of illusions or morphs that do the job. If the system changes, those wizards are now useless and if they don't have their own CMD, then they'll be wanting Tedd's tech so that they can at least have the ability to disguise agents.

People sometimes fear that something will happen, without any good reason to think it might. Government vivisectionists, for example.

DGB could easily take an attitude of "if there isn't a problem, don't try to fix it".

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