Loudmouth's Journey Inside

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

An accidental but major breakthrough was made tonight. Baker slipped past us and into Loudmouth's cat room during feeding time. Loudmouth was up on the bed during the entire episode—scrunched up at first, but relaxed later on. Baker reconnoitered the entire room, from one corner to another, every square inch. Mrs. Prof sat down next to Loudmouth and petted him, while I gave Baker encouragement from standing at the door of the room. The pair met face to face one time, for a couple of seconds, while Loudmouth was scrunched. Baker had extended up onto the edge of the bed to see him. They quickly separated. There was only one other time when the two were on the bed at the same time, and Mrs. Prof was in between. Baker only spent a couple of moments up there before jumping down.

The entire episode ended with me leaving the doorway (I had a physical crash & burn), followed by Baker shortly afterward. Mrs. Prof said she tried to pick up Loudmouth, but he gave her a bit of a grumble. She aborted the mission at that.

It was an exciting, yet somewhat scary episode. We can only hope that things go better when we permanently open the door!

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

Sigh. Mrs. Prof overshot the door. I told her, "One foot away from the door." What does she do? She puts it one foot past the door, instead of in the middle of the hallway where each cat's scent can commingle through the gap in the bottom of the doorway. Sigh.

Earlier, I found that Baker had barfed bile again overnight. No clue why. I can only guess it's due to stress.

More bed pee from Loudmouth. This is perplexing as well.

I'm starting to think that both cats need Ativan or its feline counterpart.

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

Okay, now Mrs. Prof surprises the hell out of me by letting Loudmouth out of the cat room. Baker follows him around for a bit, as does Mrs. Prof. No confrontations. She gets antsy for her coffee, lets Loudmouth go back into his room, and closes the door, leaving Baker outside.

I'm flat-out confused now.

[Scotty 1,061]

12 minutes ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

Okay, now Mrs. Prof surprises the hell out of me by letting Loudmouth out of the cat room. Baker follows him around for a bit, as does Mrs. Prof. No confrontations. She gets antsy for her coffee, lets Loudmouth go back into his room, and closes the door, leaving Baker outside.

I'm flat-out confused now.

How closely does Baker follow? Does he hang back a good distance, or close enough that Loudmouth could easy take some swats.

I'm no expert of course, but based on some of the behaviour. I'm wondering if it's even necessary to go through with moving food dishes around, and instead just let Loudmouth out of the room from time to time, if they haven't acted hostile towards each other, they'll either leave each other alone, or be best buds.

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

24 minutes ago, Scotty said:

How closely does Baker follow? Does he hang back a good distance, or close enough that Loudmouth could easy take some swats.

I'm no expert of course, but based on some of the behaviour. I'm wondering if it's even necessary to go through with moving food dishes around, and instead just let Loudmouth out of the room from time to time, if they haven't acted hostile towards each other, they'll either leave each other alone, or be best buds.

Well, right now Loudmouth is out of the cat room and Baker didn't even know it until Mrs. Prof led Loudmouth back into the room. It's a very fluid situation right now.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

5 hours ago, Scotty said:

I'm no expert of course, but based on some of the behaviour. I'm wondering if it's even necessary to go through with moving food dishes around, and instead just let Loudmouth out of the room from time to time, if they haven't acted hostile towards each other, they'll either leave each other alone, or be best buds.

The idea is to let them start associating something good (the food) with each others' presence, without having to go straight to possible confrontations or disputes over who gets what food.  For that to have an impact, it has to happen a few times -- getting to the door was step one, not the last step.

There's a difference between encountering another cat occasionally, with your human nearby to reassure you, and being face to face with the other cat at any time throughout the day and night.  Better for Loudmouth to have a few more peaceful supervised encounters, with returning to the safe space you've established afterwards; likewise better for Baker to only have this new cat make the occasional foray, with the humans clearly not bothered by him, and get used to the idea of this other cat on what was Baker's domain for a bit longer.

6 hours ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

Earlier, I found that Baker had barfed bile again overnight. No clue why. I can only guess it's due to stress.

More bed pee from Loudmouth. This is perplexing as well.

I'm starting to think that both cats need Ativan or its feline counterpart.

Could very well be stress.  Seeing each other face to face, even if it went well, is still stressful.  Take it as a sign to slow down and let them get used to this level of contact before you push things any further.  Don't back up, unless it's getting worse, just hold at this level for a while.  Feed them opposite sides of the door, let them have brief explorations where they see each other briefly, but only when you're there to supervise.  They'll get used to it.

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

There's a difference between encountering another cat occasionally, with your human nearby to reassure you, and being face to face with the other cat at any time throughout the day and night.  Better for Loudmouth to have a few more peaceful supervised encounters, with returning to the safe space you've established afterwards; likewise better for Baker to only have this new cat make the occasional foray, with the humans clearly not bothered by him, and get used to the idea of this other cat on what was Baker's domain for a bit longer.

That's what Mrs. Prof has begun doing—letting Loudmouth out for brief, supervised forays, staying with whichever cat needs her the most. She carries a slim cardboard box with her in case of brouhahas, of which there has only been one tiny hiss from Loudmouth. She then lets Loudmouth return to his room.

I'm not 100% sure what's gone on today, because I've been laid out until around 4:30 p.m. (see Changing Medications thread).

3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Could very well be stress.  Seeing each other face to face, even if it went well, is still stressful.  Take it as a sign to slow down and let them get used to this level of contact before you push things any further.  Don't back up, unless it's getting worse, just hold at this level for a while.  Feed them opposite sides of the door, let them have brief explorations where they see each other briefly, but only when you're there to supervise.  They'll get used to it.

That's pretty much what Mrs. Prof's doing. I don't know about the bed pee, but Baker is slightly on edge, not knowing when Loudmouth's going to appear again.

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

Baker is walking on pins and needles. He is nervous as hell that Loudmouth could be released at any minute. I'm starting to think that Loudmouth's trips out need to be timed to a certain point each day for now. @CritterKeeper, what do you think?

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

One thing Mrs. Prof and I had a bit of an argument about last night was the tone of voice she uses when she goes into Loudmouth's room. She's been baby talking, in English, but with her voice up high. I looked down the hall at Baker while she did that, and he looked like an Arkansas Razorback. I mean, the hairs along his spine were standing up. I figured out that Baker's been associating that voice with tense incidents, so I yelled to her to lower her octave. Baker's hairs went down a bit, slowly.

The argument came when I told her she needs to remember to do that every time. Good lord. To hear Mrs. Prof, you'd think she has the worst memory in the world, based on her arguments. How can you forget something that important? She claimed she can't remember something like that. I told her the cats can. Argument ended without resolution.

I did have to remind her this morning when she went in and fed Loudmouth. She kept it down. Baker ate more comfortably as a result.

Today's big deal is going to be a lack of meet & greet time, since Mrs. Prof will have to go in to work early. I can't hobble around fast enough to follow the two cats and prevent problems. They're going to have to wait until Mrs. Prof gets home tonight.

EDIT: Bed pee again. Loudmouth's got his own problems.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

15 hours ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

Baker is walking on pins and needles. He is nervous as hell that Loudmouth could be released at any minute. I'm starting to think that Loudmouth's trips out need to be timed to a certain point each day for now. @CritterKeeper, what do you think?

It might help, or it might lead to him getting stressed at that time of day.  Either a set time of day, or some sort of warning that Loudmouth will be coming out before it actually happens, sounds like it might help him chill the rest of the time.

4 hours ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

Today's big deal is going to be a lack of meet & greet time, since Mrs. Prof will have to go in to work early. I can't hobble around fast enough to follow the two cats and prevent problems. They're going to have to wait until Mrs. Prof gets home tonight.

EDIT: Bed pee again. Loudmouth's got his own problems.

Well, see if there's any bed pee after the lack of a trip out of his room.  He doesn't know that there won't be, so his stress levels are still those of expecting to be on strange turf near a strange cat soon.  If they both have a night off from it, that may help both their stress levels.

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

It might help, or it might lead to him getting stressed at that time of day.  Either a set time of day, or some sort of warning that Loudmouth will be coming out before it actually happens, sounds like it might help him chill the rest of the time.

... insert shash here ...

Well, see if there's any bed pee after the lack of a trip out of his room.  He doesn't know that there won't be, so his stress levels are still those of expecting to be on strange turf near a strange cat soon.  If they both have a night off from it, that may help both their stress levels.

Both sound like good advice. Baker's already a bit less edgy, from the lack of Loudmouth and from no babytalk from Mrs. Prof this morning. Let's hope he stays chilled out.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

1 hour ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

Both sound like good advice. Baker's already a bit less edgy, from the lack of Loudmouth and from no babytalk from Mrs. Prof this morning. Let's hope he stays chilled out.

Hmm, maybe the problem isn't so much that she's babytalking Loudmouth, but that she isn't babytalking Baker?  He might be associating babytalk with being ignored while the other cat gets attention.  If she can babytalk and cuddle and be sweet to Baker as oftern as she does with Loudmouth, that might even things out between them and replace the bad association he'd developing with a good association.

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Hmm, maybe the problem isn't so much that she's babytalking Loudmouth, but that she isn't babytalking Baker?  He might be associating babytalk with being ignored while the other cat gets attention.  If she can babytalk and cuddle and be sweet to Baker as oftern as she does with Loudmouth, that might even things out between them and replace the bad association he'd developing with a good association.

No, she babytalks Baker and cuddles the living daylights out of him. I get the feeling that he's associating the babytalk without him around with the appearance of another cat.

[Don Edwards 548]

Tell her that the cats will never learn to speak proper English if they are always addressed in babytalk.

 

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

Mrs. Prof took some video last night and posted it!

... on Facebook.

The first one was of Baker basically stalking and rushing Loudmouth. The second one was of her playing with Loudmouth in the cat room with a cat toy, bringing out the kitten in him, while Baker peeked over the babygate. Baker eventually leapt over the babygate and began exploring the room while Loudmouth's play continued.

Today, she had Loudmouth out while Baker was dozing in the master bedroom. Baker eventually woke up, so she let him out. She said Loudmouth hissed at him several times.

As we feared, Loudmouth is going to be a hissing bully unless we can do something to correct it. We've got the Feliway, but after the last try Mrs. Prof is afraid to put it in the cat room. Then there's the JG stuff, but don't get me started there. We need another point of attack.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

2 hours ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

Mrs. Prof took some video last night and posted it!

... on Facebook.

The first one was of Baker basically stalking and rushing Loudmouth. The second one was of her playing with Loudmouth in the cat room with a cat toy, bringing out the kitten in him, while Baker peeked over the babygate. Baker eventually leapt over the babygate and began exploring the room while Loudmouth's play continued.

Today, she had Loudmouth out while Baker was dozing in the master bedroom. Baker eventually woke up, so she let him out. She said Loudmouth hissed at him several times.

As we feared, Loudmouth is going to be a hissing bully unless we can do something to correct it. We've got the Feliway, but after the last try Mrs. Prof is afraid to put it in the cat room. Then there's the JG stuff, but don't get me started there. We need another point of attack.

That does not sound like slowing down and giving them time to adjust one level of exposure before moving on to the next.  That sounds more like you've leap-frogged ahead willy-nilly.  It's natural for cats to hiss at strange cats, and they are not associating each others' presence with good things yet.

If Baker stalked and rushed Loudmouth, it's not at all fair to characterize Loudmouth as a bully!  He's probably hissing because he feels threatened and is warning Baker to back off.  Time to give them some more space and slow things way down!

Try plugging in the Feliway for a short period at a time, so that the scent spreads out but before it becomes overwhelming.

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

That does not sound like slowing down and giving them time to adjust one level of exposure before moving on to the next.  That sounds more like you've leap-frogged ahead willy-nilly.  It's natural for cats to hiss at strange cats, and they are not associating each others' presence with good things yet.

If Baker stalked and rushed Loudmouth, it's not at all fair to characterize Loudmouth as a bully!  He's probably hissing because he feels threatened and is warning Baker to back off.  Time to give them some more space and slow things way down!

Mrs. Prof is taking steps in this direction by replacing the babygate used at feeding times. She's ordered one that has slats. I argued for one that had mesh, but she said they were "too short" and that the cats could jump over them too easily. I'm afraid the slats are too far apart. That can be fixed with chicken wire or something else, but I'd rather not have to do that. Sigh.

4 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Try plugging in the Feliway for a short period at a time, so that the scent spreads out but before it becomes overwhelming.

She's going to do this when she gets home from cat duty tonight, she said.

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

7 hours ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

11 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Try plugging in the Feliway for a short period at a time, so that the scent spreads out but before it becomes overwhelming.

She's going to do this when she gets home from cat duty tonight, she said.

Mrs. Prof plugged it in and immediately noticed a difference between this one and the last one. No burnt plastic smell. I had her unplug it so she can re-plug it tomorrow where she can monitor it while she's awake.

Oh, and we found the missing NiMH phone batteries from the first shipment from Amazon. They'd migrated into the Feliway box. Looks like I got a free set of backup batteries, thanks to lousy packaging.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 hour ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

Oh, and we found the missing NiMH phone batteries from the first shipment from Amazon.

Did you also discover their secret?

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Did you also discover their secret?

Bailiff, whack that reply with a large, floating brick.

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

After I woke up from being zonked out last night, I was informed that Baker and Loudmouth ate face to face—with the door wide open and no babygate between them! This was before Mrs. Prof put the Feliway in the cat room temporarily. She was as stunned as I was when I found out. Maybe the slats in the new babygate will not be an issue.

Bed pee is still an issue, multiple times a day. Loudmouth's given up on sitting on the bed and is instead sitting on a large under-bed Rubbermaid container. So, to combat this, Mrs. Prof went out last night (after plugging in the Feliway), bought a separate basic litter box, waterproof pad, and litter, got some "cat attractant," and came home & went to work. The pad now sits below the litterbox on the bed, and both boxes in the room have "cat attractant" in them. She's not awake yet, but she did say that Loudmouth had climbed back on top of the bed and had stretched out, like he had before the bed pee got bad. Fingers crossed.

One thing we've noticed about Baker's behavior when Loudmouth's out: it's not so much an attacking behavior as it is a "get in your face" behavior, from what I saw on the video Mrs. Prof shot. It might even be an extremely aggressive sniffing-out behavior, combined with an urge to play.

Additionally, Mrs. Prof has noted that Loudmouth has taken an extremely protective posture around her. It might be possible that some of the growling he's shown has happened when he's been close to her. She hasn't really taken note of his position when the snarls happen. I think that needs to be audited.

Baker is also very close to Mrs. Prof. Could it be that the two are arguing over her attentions?

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

Absolutely it could be.  Cats can get jealous of mom's attention just like kids.  And, just like kids, they can eventually get used to having a new sibling, and even appreciate having a ready-made playmate.  I suspect that eventually these two will be buddies, it's just a question of trying to make the transition as smooth as possible.

I seem to recall there having been a recall of Feliway diffusers at one point, but I would have thought all the bad ones were off the market by now,  The old ones used a somewhat different refill than the current model, so I suspect your bad one was just a fluke or you'd have noticed the difference when you got the replacement.  I hope they're not going to have a problem with the new ones!

On another note, I have volunteer catnip growing among my tomato and pepper plant.  I am sorely tempted to dry it and send you guys a care package.  ;-)

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

On another note, I have volunteer catnip growing among my tomato and pepper plant.

How is it surviving with ferals in your neighborhood? Also, we don't know if it will work with Loudmouth. We do know it won't work with Baker. He's catnip-proof.

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

We are cautiously optimistic: the bed litterbox worked. He peed and pooped in it. However, he did not use his litterbox on the floor. I don't know if this is good or bad. Mrs. Prof thinks it's probably because Baker marked the floor litterbox during one of his forays into the cat room.

Now she tells me.

[ProfessorTomoe 1,308]

BIG progress. I think. Mrs. Prof let Loudmouth out for a while, without locking Baker in the bedroom. Baker didn't come out at first. Loudmouth went through the living room and computer room, then came back into the living room and jumped up on the sofa. He walked around for a little bit, then settled with his head on "Baker's pillow." He then allowed Mrs. Prof to pamper him like she normally does Baker.

During this time, Baker came out. His tail was high. He walked over to the sofa, looked at Loudmouth, and put his paws on his pillow so he could sniff Loudmouth. Baker then went to one of his resting places on the floor and relaxed like he usually does. No drama, no tension, no problems.

Then the food delivery man knocked, and Baker split. Loudmouth froze, then went back to his room. Mrs. Prof put the food in the kitchen and then went back to Loudmouth's room to check on things. They were nose to nose briefly, but there was no tension as far as she could see. She finally let Baker out and left Loudmouth in his room for the night.

Big progress, eh?

Oh, one other item: Mrs. Prof cancelled the babygate with slats and ordered a gate with a net that's about the same height. I think that'll work perfectly.