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ProfessorTomoe

Loudmouth's Journey Inside

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The new babygate for Loudmouth's room arrived:

large.LoudmouthBabygate_20170722_204207_1b.jpg

Unfortunately, it was a miserable failure. Baker didn't want to eat. Loudmouth ate some, then jumped the gate and went to our bedroom and leapt up onto our bed and assumed a relaxed posture. This was probably due to him getting comfy on our bed earlier in the day when he and Baker were out and interacting with each other:

large.Loudmouth_20170722_100927_1b.jpg

Baker allowed the intrusion. In fact, he relaxed in his window hammock. He's still not 100% comfortable with Loudmouth being out and about, but he's growing to tolerate it.

Anyway, a bit more gate jumping took place before Loudmouth settled down in his room. Mrs. Prof asked me if we should let him out again. I said no—Baker's probably had enough for the night. So, she closed the door.

Loudmouth's finally using the litter box on the floor again. He's still using the bed litter box, though. Perplexing. I'm not about to have Mrs. Prof move the box off of the bed. It's too soon.

Baker was strangely feisty tonight. He usually jumps up on the sofa next to me and lets me pet him. However, I was scratching Mrs. Prof's back on the other side of the sofa when he jumped up this time. I went to my normal spot after Mrs. Prof's back scratch and tried to pet Baker, but instead of a docile cat I got teeth and claws. It took me several minutes of slow blinking at him to get him to let me pet him.

So, things are slowly progressing, sort of in a zig-zag manner. I hope we aren't screwing things up.

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And a step backward. Bed pee from Loudmouth, right outside the litter box. I'm wondering if he got up on the litter box, hung his rear over the edge, and peed that way. Mrs. Prof doesn't know what to think.

All I know is that we can't have a cat loose in the house who can't hit the mark every time. This is a major issue, and Mrs. Prof agrees. Any advice would be appreciated.

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We now have cat barf. From Loudmouth. He dumped his stomach contents onto the edge of the bed, so part of it slid off.

Mrs. Prof says this happened after a] he'd been eating and b] he'd been playing rather vigorously, jumping from the floor to the bed and vice versa. Probably her fault.

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Just had an interesting moment with Baker and Loudmouth. Loudmouth was on top of the bed, letting me give him a tummy rub, while Baker was walking around my feet. Baker then disappeared. Next thing I heard was a fabric scratching noise coming from the other side of the bed. Loudmouth started growling, even while I was petting him. I went over to the other side, expecting to see Baker, but he'd ducked under the bed.

Project: block off the space under the bed so that neither of the cats can get under it. That's a JG tip.

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A nice moment tonight between Baker (left) and Loudmouth (right):

large.BakerLoudmouthTogether20170725_01c.jpg

... and within 15 minutes Baker had jumped down, Loudmouth had jumped over to the bed, and peed on it. Mrs. Prof caught him in the act, so he knew he was doing something wrong.

We have a chronic Loudmouth bed pee problem. Extra litter boxes don't help. Different litters don't help. Our last option at the moment is to take him to the vet and see if there is something physically wrong with him.

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3 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Has anyone told him that this can result in a dishonorable discharge?

I think he already has the discharge part down.

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Definitely do take him in to rule out a medical cause.  Sometimes even if there's a behavioral reason, it's harder to fix if there's a medical component too.

It's possible that Loudmouth's peeing issues are why he ended up an outdoor cat in the first place.  Someone had a very nice, sweet, loving cat who they just could not get to stop peeing in inconvenient places, so they decided making him outdoor-only was better than euthanizing him.  Especially families with small children tend to have a (perfectly reasonable) lower tolerance for pee and poo in places their kids are exposed to them.

One option is to not let him on beds.  You could get those plastic floor-protecting runners with the spikey nubs on the bottom, and put them on the bed, nubs side up, so it's not comfy to lie on any more.  Shut the door to other bedrooms so the cats can't get to the beds there.  Trouble is, that would put unfair restrictions on Baker, too, and it would considerably shrink their territory, possibly increasing the conflict between them.  He might also start peeing on places like that pile of blankets.

It does seem to be related to Baker's having been nearby, or in this case, on the bed itself.  Urinating on the spot may be Loudmouth's attempt to assert the bed is his territory, not that strange cat's.  Is the bed the highest comfortable perch?  Perhaps a couple of cat trees, with perches up high, might let Loudmouth feel like he's got the prime spot.

I'll keep thinking about this.  Keep me updated!

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He's going to the vet, probably Thursday. The wetting issue has continued unabated. He's not even using his litter boxes for anything but poop now.

Mrs. Prof found a waterproof beach blanket at a store. It fits over the whole frigging bed, I swear. It's an interim fix for a problem that needs another solution, and I'm not even sure it'll fix the problem, since he could just move to another bed..

Baker isn't the problem in this case. He used to sleep around Mrs. Prof, but he hasn't done that in ages. Baker's got a window hammock that I don't think he'd share with Loudmouth, but there are several trees that Loudmouth could use if he wanted to elevate himself. Loudmouth was a low-level percher even when he was an outdoor cat. He never got any higher than a planter's table.

Mrs. Prof is getting desperate. She's tired of having fresh sheets every night, to use a bit of cruel irony.

EDIT: I'm being told that there were three separate spots on the bed where Loudmouth went. I'm also being told that Loudmouth's pee does not have a strong cat urine odor.

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Had a bit of a "back off!" moment a couple of hours ago. Loudmouth was discovering the house, but Baker was trying to discover Loudmouth. They kept near-missing each other until they met, face-to-face, at the hall corner. Loudmouth had had enough. He went into full growl mode, and eventually opened up his mouth and gave him a warning "tiger growl." Baker backed off really quickly and left Loudmouth alone after that little encounter.

It's pretty clear that Loudmouth is willing to coexist with Baker. He's just not willing to be "best buds" yet. Baker pushed the boundary too far this morning, and he got told to back off, which he did. Neither cat wanted to kill the other cat: it was more of a, "Hey! Get out of my face/rear end!" move by Loudmouth, and Baker honored it.

Could be much worse.

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Mrs. Prof had to put Loudmouth into "Guantanamo Pee" today. She was unable to get time to take him to the vet, and she wanted to make sure that he used one of the litter boxes to urinate. As of this writing, he hasn't, so he's been in the cat room since shortly after the last post. We don't understand what is going on. I was out of it for most of the day, but I've made it clear to her that she needs to take Loudmouth to the vet on Friday.

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20 hours ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

Had a bit of a "back off!" moment a couple of hours ago. Loudmouth was discovering the house, but Baker was trying to discover Loudmouth. They kept near-missing each other until they met, face-to-face, at the hall corner. Loudmouth had had enough. He went into full growl mode, and eventually opened up his mouth and gave him a warning "tiger growl." Baker backed off really quickly and left Loudmouth alone after that little encounter.

It's pretty clear that Loudmouth is willing to coexist with Baker. He's just not willing to be "best buds" yet. Baker pushed the boundary too far this morning, and he got told to back off, which he did. Neither cat wanted to kill the other cat: it was more of a, "Hey! Get out of my face/rear end!" move by Loudmouth, and Baker honored it.

Could be much worse.

I was wanting to say that it seemed like Baker was perfectly fine with the idea of another cat being in the house and that you really only had to worry about how Loudmouth would take it. This seems to support that, but it is looking like Loudmouth's more of a hermit with a "you leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" personality towards other cats. I wanted to say that the peeing was Loudmouth remarking the bed after Baker sat on it, but I figured if Critterkeeper didn't suggest that then maybe it isn't. I dunno

Getting the peeing under control is certainly an issue, but aside from that, you might just have to settle with them just coexisting together rather than being buddies. Trying to force it might not work. Who knows, maybe in a few months or so they might naturally get closer and surprise you.

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7 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I was wanting to say that it seemed like Baker was perfectly fine with the idea of another cat being in the house and that you really only had to worry about how Loudmouth would take it. This seems to support that, but it is looking like Loudmouth's more of a hermit with a "you leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" personality towards other cats. I wanted to say that the peeing was Loudmouth remarking the bed after Baker sat on it, but I figured if Critterkeeper didn't suggest that then maybe it isn't. I dunno

Getting the peeing under control is certainly an issue, but aside from that, you might just have to settle with them just coexisting together rather than being buddies. Trying to force it might not work. Who knows, maybe in a few months or so they might naturally get closer and surprise you.

Yeah, that about sums it up. I'd like the surprise. Right now, I'd just like it if they'd consistently eat within eyeshot of each other.

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Mrs. Prof called our vet and had a discussion with the vet tech / nurse / whoever it was who answered the phone. Anyway, Loudmouth's symptoms got described in full, including the fact that his bed pee doesn't really smell like cat urine. She'll be taking Loudmouth in to the vet at 5:30 p.m. this afternoon.

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Well, it's behavioral. Mrs. Prof even managed to capture a urine sample from bed pee on the waterproof beach blanket. The sample tested completely normal.

Sigh.

The only thing I can think of is to get some Ssscat cans and set them up on the bed to keep Loudmouth off. I'm at a complete and total loss. Even the vet was at a loss. Her suggestion was to put him back in his room for three weeks.

Someone, somewhere has got to have a solution to this. Please?

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Is separating the cats for a longer time really so impossible?  It does seem like his incidents could be associated with being around Baker, meaning he's stressed out by it and that's showing up in his behavior.  Separating them more, and going more slowly at reintroducing them, might work.

One thing that's often a bit counter-intuitive....if he's doing this because he's stressed, then scolding him or punishing him for doing it can end up making him more stressed and make the problem worse.  Better to do things to make the bed less attractive, like the plastic runners I mentioned, or covering with tin foil, or somesuch.

It also might help to get some anti-anxiety medications going.  Checking notes from a lecture by Dr. Ciribassi, who is Board certified in Behavior, he mentions Lorazepam, Clomipramine, and Fluoxetine.  He also emphasized cleaning any pee spots thoroughly with an enzyme cleaner so threre's no residual odor, and using Feliway to make an anxious cat feel more at home.  One of the case examples he gave was of a cat "Romeo," who had a similar problem when the owners got a new puppy, and again when they did remodeling or moved the furniture around.  He lists isolating "Romeo" while the spots are all cleaned, denying access to the problem area (at first one room, then gradually more) and providing extra litter boxes, putting plastic runners over the areas he'd urinated, and giving lorazepam 0.125mg twice a day.  They took 8 weeks getting him access to the whole house except his main problem area (a basement in that case), waited another month before taking away one of the extra boxes, and were going to keep him on meds for 3 more months minimum before weaning down his dose.

You started this thread on July 4, so it's barely been three and a half weeks.  Maybe slowing down and letting them both get used to things a bit more is what's needed.  Meanwhile, call your vet and ask if they'd be willing to try an anxiolytic.  I can fax them a copy of the notes from the lecture if it helps.

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That's a lot to digest at once. Mrs. Prof is asleep—let me talk it over with her in the morning. I like the enzyme cleaner idea. The carpet runner is a bit more problematic, since he's peed in several spots across a king sized bed. It might work on a smaller bed in the cat room, though.

Isolating the master bedroom is impossible, because Baker has had free run of it for years and is one of those cats who will meow incessantly if he can't get into a spot he's used to getting into, even with Ssscat cans—he'll find the blind spot between them and sit there for his meowing.

I'm receptive to the idea of lorazepam. Hell, I'm on .5 mg 4x a day myself. I can see where .125 mg 2x daily would help.

Keep your fax machine warmed up. Mrs. Prof might not be willing to go against the vet, but I might be willing to give her a call. Thanks!

EDIT: we're already using the Clorox pet enzyme cleaning fluid.

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16 minutes ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

For some reason, he never pees on it.

Buy like, 50, and cover the areas he pees on.  Simple really...

:P

 

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