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    • Robin

      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
Scotty

NP, Monday April 4, 2016

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8 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Don't. Just... don't. When people have had a very bad experience with something, the last thing they need is someone telling them that it isn't all bad just because they had their lives badly damaged or ruined. Trust me on this.

While I'm well aware it comes off as insensitive, Biased preconceptions should be challenged not tolerated or reinforced, regardless of whether that bias is positive or negative. If a bias is never challenged, people will begin to believe it true whether it is or not.

Also people shouldn't throw anecdotal statistics around. ever. it's, at best, misleading.

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39 minutes ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

While I'm well aware it comes off as insensitive, Biased preconceptions should be challenged not tolerated or reinforced, regardless of whether that bias is positive or negative. If a bias is never challenged, people will begin to believe it true whether it is or not.

Also people shouldn't throw anecdotal statistics around. ever. it's, at best, misleading.

You are not getting it. This is not about science. If this were a scientific journal, you would be absolutely correct. But it is not. It is a discussion forum about a comic where people come to relax and have fun. And it is just about as far away from fun as it is possible to suddenly find oneself in the middle of a discussion where people casually take something very traumatic for one and then turn it into idle entertainment or statistics. Especially when it turns into something that either ignores or denies one's actual lived experience.

It is my job as a moderator to keep this space as safe as possible for the people who post here. From the responses I have seen earlier, I suspect that more than one other than me have had experiences with an alcoholic family member that impacted or harmed their lives. I do not wish to hear a defence of alcohol after what it has done to mine. And I very definitely do not wish to be told that the years of pain and confusion I went through are 'a misleading anecdotal statistic', for that is most certainly outright telling me that what I have experienced and suffered does not matter.

You may not have intended that. It is still what you did. So therefore I ask you to please stop your 'scientific' treatment of this and take it elsewhere. If you do not, I shall be compelled to act as moderator. And I do not want to do that.

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21 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:
21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... you need to drink for that?

i don't mean like 'every joke is funny' i mean everything; jokes, cars, faces, socks, the color blue, drawing on random things with a metallic sharpie...

... ok, that sounds like something some people need LSD for.

6 hours ago, Sweveham said:

Of course, alcohol, like any drug, has it's benefits, otherwise people wouldn't drink it. No one denies this. For many, the intoxicating effect is simply enjoyable. It is a way of satisfying the human need for fun and escapism.

Drinking compares badly to other, better ways of having fun, which range from talking with friends to reading books to playing video games. You will tend to be happier without alcohol. So yeah, I wouldn't recommend it.

I sort of assumed that the people who get drunk for fun are the ones who are unable to get the fun by reading books or playing video games. Which seems as good reason to drink in the "I drink to forget how bad my live is" sense ... (except, obviously, drinking to forget is not sustainable strategy - but that is first thing you forget when you drink).

Still, there are worse drugs. But they are all illegal. In fact, I suspect even some illegal drugs are LESS dangerous than alcohol.

 

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44 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I sort of assumed that the people who get drunk for fun are the ones who are unable to get the fun by reading books or playing video games. Which seems as good reason to drink in the "I drink to forget how bad my live is" sense ... (except, obviously, drinking to forget is not sustainable strategy - but that is first thing you forget when you drink).

Still, there are worse drugs. But they are all illegal. In fact, I suspect even some illegal drugs are LESS dangerous than alcohol.

I do enjoy drinking on occasion, and I can have plenty of fun doing things like reading a book or playing video games. I don't drink much these days because I don't have much of an entertainment budget (Finally had enough today to go see a movie in theater that I've been wanting to see for months.) and spending $20 on books or games is generally more fun than spending the same amount on booze. Also if I want to forget my troubles I find losing myself in a good book works better than booze, which is good because it's also healthier.

I've known people who can drink responsibly, and some who can't. With the latter including a former sister in law who was a bad drunk. (Though I believe other drugs were involved, I didn't know her very well because she was someone better avoided.) I've also got an uncle who can go from friendly drunk to mean drunk very quickly.

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56 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Still, there are worse drugs. But they are all illegal. In fact, I suspect even some illegal drugs are LESS dangerous than alcohol.

Several of the common recreational illegal drugs are known to be less dangerous than alcohol. Just as one example, it's not hard to consume a lethal dose of whiskey, difficult to consume a lethal dose of beer, and very close to impossible to consume a lethal dose of marijuana.

Of course, ALL of them are dangerous if done to great excess, or to more moderate excess quite frequently, or even to mild excess if one then proceeds to act on the assumption that one's judgment is not altered or impaired. And anything addictive, even if it's only psychologically addictive, can become a debilitating impediment to life.

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1 hour ago, Ser Pentrose said:

I do enjoy drinking on occasion, and I can have plenty of fun doing things like reading a book or playing video games. I don't drink much these days because I don't have much of an entertainment budget (Finally had enough today to go see a movie in theater that I've been wanting to see for months.) and spending $20 on books or games is generally more fun than spending the same amount on booze. Also if I want to forget my troubles I find losing myself in a good book works better than booze, which is good because it's also healthier.

This actually supports my assumption. Even if you read fast, books generally last longer than alcohol bought by same money, and the ration can be much better in games (especially free ones :)).

59 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

Several of the common recreational illegal drugs are known to be less dangerous than alcohol. Just as one example, it's not hard to consume a lethal dose of whiskey, difficult to consume a lethal dose of beer, and very close to impossible to consume a lethal dose of marijuana.

If you interpret "dangerous" as "immediately live-threatening", it's certain. I was speaking about danger in more general sense, which is harder to compare. Considering how many people are drinking alcohol and for how long, the effect it have doesn't look THAT bad; for most illegal drugs we don't have nearly that much data.

Although specifically marijuana is so obviously less dangerous it's starting to be legal in some US states ... and now imagine how much better would it be if you wouldn't smoke it.

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1 hour ago, Don Edwards said:

Several of the common recreational illegal drugs are known to be less dangerous than alcohol. Just as one example, it's not hard to consume a lethal dose of whiskey, difficult to consume a lethal dose of beer, and very close to impossible to consume a lethal dose of marijuana.

While that used to be true when smoking the hemp plant was the only way it was consumed, modern technology now gives us butters and oils and other concentrated sources, often intended for baking for later consumption in smaller portions.  Veterinarians always believed pets could not die of an overdose of pot, but now there have been several documented cases of dogs getting ahold if their owner's (or owner's friend's) pot products, and suffering a fatal overdose.  I don't know if there have been similar cases in humans yet or not, that's the one species on the planet I'm not allowed to diagnose or treat so I don't follow the literature as closely.

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3 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Several of the common recreational illegal drugs are known to be less dangerous than alcohol. Just as one example, it's not hard to consume a lethal dose of whiskey, difficult to consume a lethal dose of beer, and very close to impossible to consume a lethal dose of marijuana.

I remember this one time when I realised bananas contained radioactive potassium that I tried to work out how many bananas you had to eat before the radiation became a significant cancer hazard. I think I arrived at something like half a ton to a ton of bananas a day for an entire year before the radiation effects reached that level. I somehow suspect that it would not be the radioactive component of the bananas that would end up killing you.

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Would the world be a better place without alcohol? Perhaps it would, but I think we would just have found some other way to intoxicate ourselves.

I can't think of a single "natural" alcoholic beverage that tastes good the first time you drink it. With natural I mean naturally fermented, such as beer or wine. The first time I tried beer I thought it was foul but after trying it enough it grew on me, and today I can appreciate it. In my experience the same goes for wine. The hard stuff is even worse, or better depending on what side of the curve you are. Whisky has a huge spread, from smooth bourbon to devastatingly smoky and tar infused golden honey. But it all taste awful the first time and still I've learned to enjoy it. How perverse is that?

However the really dangerous stuff is things like alcopop and fruit flavored ciders as these largely hides the taste of alcohol making it easy to drink more than you realize.

Personally I'm something as weird as a responsible drunk. When drunk I try to take care of everyone, making sure they don't drink to much, that they don't get into fights, that they get home safely, that they doesn't do anything to stupid or dangerous. This has made people believe that I'm not actually drinking that much, or that I have some kind of amazing alcohol tolerance when actually I'm drunk as a skunk.

One time I was at a club with some friends and we all got hammered. I ended up carrying a friend upp the stairs from the place, flagged down a cab, dumped him in it and payed the cabbie, including giving him a gratuitous tip just in case my friend would throw up. The day after I woke up feeling like shit, my pants was standing in the corner covered in dried mud and I had twigs and pine needles in both hair and beard. The thing is that there are no parks or anything anywhere between the club and my flat, and I had no idea what had happened. I just remembered starting to walk home and I actually thought I remembered it all, but the state of my pants and the twigs and pine needles told another story. After that I didn't touch anything alcoholic for almost three years, and I've been very careful ever since.

Another strange thing is that I've never been involved in a fight with anyone while drunk even though I can't help but get in the way whenever it starts to get ugly. Figure that?

So does that mean I think alcohol is safe in any way? No. One of my closest friends brother committed suicide after suffering from brain damage. He was in a club and got jumped from behind by a drunk. It could have been any kind of other drug involved of course, but if it hadn't been for alcohol culture making it accepted to be intoxicated in clubs it probably wouldn't have happened. And as I grew up the neighbor's son was a drunk. One time he drew a knife and tried to stab his mother, something so totally out of character that I have no idea what went on in his head. He joined the AA and is now a sober drunk. Last time I heard from him he had been sober for more than ten years, but he's still a drunk.

Alcohol is NOT a safe drug, but it's one I know a bit about how it works and what the dangers are. For me it's the case of better the devil you know, and that's why I prefer that alcohol remains as the common legal intoxicant over replacing it with or adding THC or something else that we lack long term data for as large a sample as we do have for alcohol.

I can't see what good it would do to legalize another intoxicant while we still have alcohol as available as it is today. And no, I don't think banning alcohol would be possible. It's just to deeply ingrained in our society. Just look at the prohibition in the US and what followed in it's wake.

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10 hours ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

Perhaps it would, but I think we would just have found some other way to intoxicate ourselves.

We did. Hallucinogenic species of Psilocybe have a long history of use among the native peoples of Mesoamerica for religious communion, divination, and healing, from pre-Columbian times up to the present day. ... for example.

10 hours ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

I can't think of a single "natural" alcoholic beverage that tastes good the first time you drink it. With natural I mean naturally fermented, such as beer or wine.

While beer is pretty old, I would look more for mead ... and even more naturally fermented alcoholic stuff like overripe fruit. Considering animals eat it too, it can't be THAT bad.

10 hours ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

I can't see what good it would do to legalize another intoxicant

10 hours ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

Just look at the prohibition in the US and what followed in it's wake.

Interesting. When I look at the prohibition, it makes me think how dangerous needs the intoxicant be to warrant make it illegal. THC is not ingrained in our society as deeply as alcohol, but nevertheless, the black market and criminality resulting from the ban may be worse than making it legal. Or at least not criminal offence.

Pity that it's not technically possible to make drinking legal but getting drunk illegal (or generally, force responsible usage of intoxicants).

 

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47 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

While beer is pretty old, I would look more for mead ... and even more naturally fermented alcoholic stuff like overripe fruit. Considering animals eat it too, it can't be THAT bad.

Fruit starts to get an odd taste as it ferments.

If we're talking about potentially beneficial applications of alcohol, my mom uses it as a sedative when she's desperate for sleep. Though that only works for people it actually puts to sleep.

It also makes a reasonable emergency antiseptic.

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26 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

If we're talking about potentially beneficial applications of alcohol

The part you quoted tried to explain how humans started drinking alcohol.

26 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

my mom uses it as a sedative when she's desperate for sleep. Though that only works for people it actually puts to sleep.

The ones it not work for were using poppy heads. Before the kinds of poppy with usable content of opiates got banned. (... speaking about people finding something else to intoxicate themselves with ...)

26 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

It also makes a reasonable emergency antiseptic.

It is the oldest antiseptic known to man with big margin. And there are theories that the reason they were drinking wine in middle age was that it was healthier, because water could get stale.

 

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16 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

And there are theories that the reason they were drinking wine in middle age was that it was healthier, because water could get stale.

I hadn't heard about "stale", but there was the little problem that any water not from wells - and water from some wells - was contaminated with whatever sort of bacteria the folks upstream were currently suffering from. And the denser the population, the more of an issue this was. Population was, of course, densest in cities.

Yes, they regarded water as unhealthy to drink, for the very simple reason that people who drank it tended to get sick (not including drunk or hung-over) more than people who didn't. So they drank wine and beer instead. And they also mixed wine/beer (and later rum and other distilled spirits) with water, to reduce the intoxication (and stretch the expensive stuff), but if it had enough alcohol to kill the bacteria they didn't know was in the water...

In China they had the same problem; rather than fixating on alcohol, they drank tea. To make good tea you have to boil the water. Which kills the bacteria they didn't know was in the water.

So China invented the tea ceremony, and Europe invented the "Hold my beer and watch this!" ceremony.

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21 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

I hadn't heard about "stale", but there was the little problem that any water not from wells - and water from some wells - was contaminated with whatever sort of bacteria the folks upstream were currently suffering from. And the denser the population, the more of an issue this was. Population was, of course, densest in cities.

Maybe "stale" is not the correct word. I was referring to what happens with water in ponds, when it's not flowing. Which also involves bacteria.

22 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

So China invented the tea ceremony, and Europe invented the "Hold my beer and watch this!" ceremony.

This still leaves the question if it's because in Europe we didn't have tea or because alcohol from rice doesn't taste that good.

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26 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Maybe "stale" is not the correct word. I was referring to what happens with water in ponds, when it's not flowing. Which also involves bacteria.

I believe the term for that is stagnant.

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23 minutes ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

I believe the term for that is stagnant.

Isn't "stagnant" what such water IS, and not what it become? Hmmm ... no word for what I mean on wikipedia's water stagnation article, maybe it doesn't exists (like, maybe generic term like "bad" is used).

Anyway ... the point I wanted to make is that even water which is not contaminated in obvious way will become unhealthy if stagnant for some time. (Mostly because bacterias will multiply from normal to dangerous levels.)

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26 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Isn't "stagnant" what such water IS, and not what it become? Hmmm ... no word for what I mean on wikipedia's water stagnation article, maybe it doesn't exists (like, maybe generic term like "bad" is used).

Anyway ... the point I wanted to make is that even water which is not contaminated in obvious way will become unhealthy if stagnant for some time. (Mostly because bacteria will multiply from normal to dangerous levels.)

AFAIK, It's just referred to as "Stagnant Water" like InfiniteRemnant said, and it's known stagnant water is bad to drink. It's one of those things where English behaves a bit odd. Water becomes stagnant when it sits without flowing in certain conditions. It's both what the water is and what it has become.

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