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Scotty

np
NP, Friday July 14, 2017

26 posts in this topic

http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=642

It's not directly mentioned in the commentary, although the stated heights should be self explanatory, but Dan clarified on Patreon:

Quote

And no, Diane isn't shrunk in panel 2. She's just wearing loose clothing (with the tall, extra muscular Elliot form in mind), and the view is higher up than in panel one.

Just thought I'd point that out given that, in spite of Diane being a couple inches taller than Sarah, Diane starts out looking shorter and wearing loose clothing thanks to panel wobbliness.

 

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Dan often seems to bemoan his lack of mathematical skills in these commentaries.

Perhaps he should just let Grace handle all the maths for him from now on.

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Mamma mia, that deserves a double over! Still want Nanase canonically wearing a headband someday.

Nothing beats Susan's height miscalculation though.

1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Perhaps he should just let Grace handle all the maths for him from now on.

Or Minion, whosoever is more available.

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8 hours ago, Stature said:

Nothing beats Susan's height miscalculation though.

Which miscalculation? If you mean the previous comic, that's not a miscalculation, that's FV5(sort of) at work. I know Dan called it FV4 but I coulda swore the female variants had different design rules compared to the male variants.

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16 hours ago, Scotty said:
On 7/15/2017 at 6:20 AM, Stature said:

Nothing beats Susan's height miscalculation though.

Which miscalculation? If you mean the previous comic, that's not a miscalculation, that's FV5(sort of) at work. I know Dan called it FV4 but I coulda swore the female variants had different design rules compared to the male variants.

For those wondering, Susan has grown to 5'8", or some other number if using the metric system. I'm not that great with conversions, but I think this makes her about 22 meters tall.

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Just now, hkmaly said:

Oh yeah, that one. But I wanna say that doesn't really count, because that was intentionally done as a joke, while the recent ones weren't intentional.

Of course the results were the same with people correcting Dan, but in the case of the 22 meter joke, at the time he was probably thinking "Saying 5'8" equals 22 meters is so ridiculous that everyone would have to see that I'm joking."

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4 hours ago, Scotty said:

Oh yeah, that one. But I wanna say that doesn't really count, because that was intentionally done as a joke, while the recent ones weren't intentional.

Of course the results were the same with people correcting Dan, but in the case of the 22 meter joke, at the time he was probably thinking "Saying 5'8" equals 22 meters is so ridiculous that everyone would have to see that I'm joking."

Poe's law more or less says you really can't assume that on the internet.  Or more accurately, because there are people that make Poe's Law needed, you can't say that on the Internet.

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7 minutes ago, mlooney said:
4 hours ago, Scotty said:

Of course the results were the same with people correcting Dan, but in the case of the 22 meter joke, at the time he was probably thinking "Saying 5'8" equals 22 meters is so ridiculous that everyone would have to see that I'm joking."

Poe's law more or less says you really can't assume that on the internet.  Or more accurately, because there are people that make Poe's Law needed, you can't say that on the Internet.

The original Poe's law referred to parody to some extreme view ... but yes, seems it's much more general.

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10 hours ago, mlooney said:

Poe's law more or less says you really can't assume that on the internet.  Or more accurately, because there are people that make Poe's Law needed, you can't say that on the Internet.

10 hours ago, hkmaly said:

The original Poe's law referred to parody to some extreme view ... but yes, seems it's much more general.

It was all at face value, but it sure is due to the far link at first glance. :demonicduck:

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Dang it, now Dan has me questioning minutiae. Ellen can scan transformed physical forms, but does not copy the magic with the transformed form. Can she use this to scan/stack her own beams? I.E Beam shrink, scan, cancel abilities, paste, shrink again? I mean clearly her scan ability cheats mass conservation as seen with cat form. Obvious answer would be 'no that's cheating', but it is currently unclear. 

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53 minutes ago, spazmonkey said:

Dang it, now Dan has me questioning minutiae. Ellen can scan transformed physical forms, but does not copy the magic with the transformed form. Can she use this to scan/stack her own beams? I.E Beam shrink, scan, cancel abilities, paste, shrink again? I mean clearly her scan ability cheats mass conservation as seen with cat form. Obvious answer would be 'no that's cheating', but it is currently unclear. 

I would think that the scan/paste would carry the scanned person's enchantments over to the pasted person so trying to shrink the pasted person would come up as "they're already under this kind of shrink enchantment". What you're thinking about with it not copying magic with the transformed form would apply to Dan stating that Ellen couldn't copy Grace or Cheerleadra and get their abilities to shapeshift and fly and such.

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30 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I would think that the scan/paste would carry the scanned person's enchantments over to the pasted person so trying to shrink the pasted person would come up as "they're already under this kind of shrink enchantment". What you're thinking about with it not copying magic with the transformed form would apply to Dan stating that Ellen couldn't copy Grace or Cheerleadra and get their abilities to shapeshift and fly and such.

I can dig that, but the implication would be that she does not copy the physical form but the transformed person. So like she copies Eliot transformed into Cheerleadra, but with none of the cool powers, which is a weird way of piece wise splitting up of spells. If the scanned spell runs out when the pasted transformation is active would the paste transformed individual turn back into the pre-spell transformed copy target? I want answers!

 

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3 minutes ago, spazmonkey said:

If the scanned spell runs out when the pasted transformation is active would the paste transformed individual turn back into the pre-spell transformed copy target? I want answers!

I doubt that the pasted person's for would share the duration of the scanned person's form, though I think in Elliot's case, his forms don't have a duration, Edward had said that Elliot still recovers energy even while transformed just at a slower rate, although Cheerleadra might use more energy than Elliot recovers, but we don't know for sure because we've never seen Elliot be forced to revert back, he's always willed it to happen.

Anyway, Elliot might be a bad example to use, but I don't think if an enchant was supposed to last an hour, and Ellen scanned the person when the enchantment had 10 minutes left, the pasted person would only have that form for 10 minutes, though I don't think it would give it to the for 1 hour either but maybe for however long the paste itself is supposed to last. And I'm pretty sure the scan would only take the form that a person is in, not the current form plus their natural form. Basically, I'm pretty certain the scanned and pasted wouldn't be linked like Rhoda and Catalina were.

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14 hours ago, Scotty said:

I doubt that the pasted person's for would share the duration of the scanned person's form, though I think in Elliot's case, his forms don't have a duration, Edward had said that Elliot still recovers energy even while transformed just at a slower rate, although Cheerleadra might use more energy than Elliot recovers, but we don't know for sure because we've never seen Elliot be forced to revert back, he's always willed it to happen.

Anyway, Elliot might be a bad example to use, but I don't think if an enchant was supposed to last an hour, and Ellen scanned the person when the enchantment had 10 minutes left, the pasted person would only have that form for 10 minutes, though I don't think it would give it to the for 1 hour either but maybe for however long the paste itself is supposed to last. And I'm pretty sure the scan would only take the form that a person is in, not the current form plus their natural form. Basically, I'm pretty certain the scanned and pasted wouldn't be linked like Rhoda and Catalina were.

There's a high probability that the enchantments would get entangled or fused and continue or fail together similar to "escape from the mall"

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17 hours ago, Scotty said:
18 hours ago, spazmonkey said:

Dang it, now Dan has me questioning minutiae. Ellen can scan transformed physical forms, but does not copy the magic with the transformed form. Can she use this to scan/stack her own beams? I.E Beam shrink, scan, cancel abilities, paste, shrink again? I mean clearly her scan ability cheats mass conservation as seen with cat form. Obvious answer would be 'no that's cheating', but it is currently unclear. 

I would think that the scan/paste would carry the scanned person's enchantments over to the pasted person so trying to shrink the pasted person would come up as "they're already under this kind of shrink enchantment".

Right ... she copied Cheerleadra but without the abilities  so she should be able to copy already enchanted person ... but regarding the shrinking experiment, note that her spells have cooldown, it's possible she wouldn't get far even in ideal case.

Also, if the shrinking limit is related to original mass, the original mass may be preserved even if other details of spells wouldn't.

16 hours ago, Scotty said:

I doubt that the pasted person's for would share the duration of the scanned person's form, though I think in Elliot's case, his forms don't have a duration, Edward had said that Elliot still recovers energy even while transformed just at a slower rate, although Cheerleadra might use more energy than Elliot recovers, but we don't know for sure because we've never seen Elliot be forced to revert back, he's always willed it to happen.

IF Elliot is using more energy than he recovers when transformed to Cheerleadra, it's because of powering her abilities - like flying, durability and regeneration. Just the form can't require so much energy.

2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

There's a high probability that the enchantments would get entangled or fused and continue or fail together similar to "escape from the mall"

Or in some other way ; the "escape from the mall" definitely shows than combining two spells can get results which are not completely intuitive ...

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2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

There's a high probability that the enchantments would get entangled or fused and continue or fail together similar to "escape from the mall"

I don't think it's the same though, in the case of Rhoda and Catalina, Catalina was in very close proximity (inside Rhoda's jacket) when Rhoda added another enchantment to herself, it'd be along the lines of the pinup of Ellen FV5ing herself but catching Sarah and Grace with it as well because they were in physical contact with each other. The big difference is Rhoda and Catalina each had different enchantments on each other that got balanced out when they were linked by Rhoda's disguise.

For the scan/paste, the scan doesn't enchant a person, If Ellen scanned Elliot in Cheerleadra form, Elliot isn't enchanted with a "you've been scanned" spell, if anything Ellen enchants herself to store the form, so if Ellen then pasted the Cheerleadra form onto Ashley, Ashley and Elliot wouldn't be linked by by enchantments. Ellen might be linked to Ashley though, but that kinda makes sense anyway since Ellen can revert Ashley back to normal in the same way a zapping someone she had FV5ed a second time would return them to normal.

Now, stacking several enchants like Ellen scan/pasting Elliot's Cheerleadra form to Ashley, then doublehanding FV5 and making her taller would very likely affect how long the enchants on Ashley last in the same way that Rhoda and Catalina had multiple enchants on each other wouldn't last as long if there wasn't so much ambient energy and willpower to keep them going. If Ellen also pasted Cheerleadra on Diane, then hit her with a doublehanded shrink+heavy, Ashley and Diane can't be linked because their enchantments aren't balancing to an average height, weight, etc.

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

IF Elliot is using more energy than he recovers when transformed to Cheerleadra, it's because of powering her abilities - like flying, durability and regeneration. Just the form can't require so much energy.

Well there's passive stuff like enhanced strength and agility, I don't know if the faster healing would be a constant thing or only be active when injured though, and then what if Elliot merged with his cellphone?

I dunno, maybe the passive stuff has Elliot break even with the recovery rate, no gain, no loss, until he starts actively using abilities.

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23 minutes ago, Scotty said:

For the scan/paste, the scan doesn't enchant a person, If Ellen scanned Elliot in Cheerleadra form, Elliot isn't enchanted with a "you've been scanned" spell, if anything Ellen enchants herself to store the form, so if Ellen then pasted the Cheerleadra form onto Ashley, Ashley and Elliot wouldn't be linked by by enchantments. Ellen might be linked to Ashley though, but that kinda makes sense anyway since Ellen can revert Ashley back to normal in the same way a zapping someone she had FV5ed a second time would return them to normal.

There won't be any linking of people, but the SPELLS can become linked.

19 minutes ago, Scotty said:
25 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

IF Elliot is using more energy than he recovers when transformed to Cheerleadra, it's because of powering her abilities - like flying, durability and regeneration. Just the form can't require so much energy.

Well there's passive stuff like enhanced strength and agility, I don't know if the faster healing would be a constant thing or only be active when injured though, and then what if Elliot merged with his cellphone?

I dunno, maybe the passive stuff has Elliot break even with the recovery rate, no gain, no loss, until he starts actively using abilities.

Yeah ... there is passive and passive. The enhanced strength might get used every time he moves or just when he actually does something which require higher strength. The cellphone might be spending energy on receiving signal and all the hidden handshakes cellphones does when changing base tower even if Elliot isn't actively using it etc ...

But when Ellen copies the form, the abilities are not copied therefore are DEFINITELY not being used.

It will be even more apparent with the guardian angel form, which have lot of abilities permanently active. Starting with glowing, then the tails might be actually some energy constructs, combat instincts might include constant awareness and the form likely includes some additional senses ...

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52 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

There won't be any linking of people, but the SPELLS can become linked.

Well the only instances of spells being linked have been Rhoda and Catalina, and Ellen and Nanase*. And both were under specific circumstances. Catalina was affected by Rhoda's disguise by being inside Rhoda's jacket which was also being affected by the spell so we know that the spell encompassed Rhoda. In the example of the Sarah/Grace/Ellen pinup, Grace was morphed as Sarah, but because Grace doesn't morph through enchantment, Ellen's FV5 beam doesn't link them and turn Ellen into an FV5'd Sarah, If Sarah had used a watch to morph into Grace prior to the zap, then we may have ended up with a trio of Graces.

47 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

But when Ellen copies the form, the abilities are not copied therefore are DEFINITELY not being used.

Yeah, so a pasted Cheerleadra form on Ashley should last about as long as a standard transformation, either until Ashley resists, Ellen cancels it out, the amount of available ambient energy runs out (not much of a problem at the moment) or whatever set duration the spell gives the form.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

It will be even more apparent with the guardian angel form, which have lot of abilities permanently active. Starting with glowing, then the tails might be actually some energy constructs, combat instincts might include constant awareness and the form likely includes some additional senses ...

*Nanase's Guardian form being fully copied by Ellen (abilities and all) is a very unique situation because Dan isn't quite clear about whether it was a one time thing, like the WoM saying "You know what Ellen? I'll give it to you this time because you and Nanase are being very dramatic right now." or if the Guardian form allows itself to be copied like that. I don't really expect to see them do that again though, but who knows. I also do not expect scan/paste to work on a guardian form though, seems like that would be too OP.

And yes I'm saying that the WoM would have had something to do with it because of the fact that Ellen was trolled afterwards by having her hair turn blonde instead of black like she expected. Also the fact that the last magic change with the warmongering horde suddenly losing the ability to shoot fire from their palms, thus allowing them to get slaughtered, would have been totally seen as an act of god by the people back then.

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37 minutes ago, Scotty said:

In the example of the Sarah/Grace/Ellen pinup, Grace was morphed as Sarah, but because Grace doesn't morph through enchantment, Ellen's FV5 beam doesn't link them and turn Ellen into an FV5'd Sarah, If Sarah had used a watch to morph into Grace prior to the zap, then we may have ended up with a trio of Graces.

Unlikely.

39 minutes ago, Scotty said:

*Nanase's Guardian form being fully copied by Ellen (abilities and all) is a very unique situation because Dan isn't quite clear about whether it was a one time thing, like the WoM saying "You know what Ellen? I'll give it to you this time because you and Nanase are being very dramatic right now." or if the Guardian form allows itself to be copied like that.

Hmmmm .... didn't Dan somewhere compared it to Susan's mixing her magic and Nanase's fairy? Or was it just us comparing it?

Anyway, "this time" ... it is possible the spell was actually being added in Ellen's spellbook, so she can now cast it even WITHOUT copying Nanase. That she actually obtained the spell similarly as Nanase obtained it in dramatic way.

44 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I also do not expect scan/paste to work on a guardian form though, seems like that would be too OP.

Definitely sounds OP, yes.

45 minutes ago, Scotty said:

And yes I'm saying that the WoM would have had something to do with

Or it could be some actual god. Heka, for example.

... ok, Will of Magic sounds more likely, but it is a possibility.

 

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41 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Unlikely.

Actually rethought things, it wouldn't be a trio of Graces, it'd be FV5'd Grace with a pair of FV5'd Gracelyns.

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Anyway, "this time" ... it is possible the spell was actually being added in Ellen's spellbook, so she can now cast it even WITHOUT copying Nanase. That she actually obtained the spell similarly as Nanase obtained it in dramatic way.

If the Guardian form is now in Ellen's spellbook, Dan should be covering that before the end of this arc, but I'm not expecting it.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Unlikely.

Actually rethought things, it wouldn't be a trio of Graces, it'd be FV5'd Grace with a pair of FV5'd Gracelyns.

Spells don't ALWAYS merge and there was no "Gracelyn" or "Ellen" spell.

16 minutes ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Anyway, "this time" ... it is possible the spell was actually being added in Ellen's spellbook, so she can now cast it even WITHOUT copying Nanase. That she actually obtained the spell similarly as Nanase obtained it in dramatic way.

If the Guardian form is now in Ellen's spellbook, Dan should be covering that before the end of this arc, but I'm not expecting it.

Hmmm, he totally should mention it, yes ...

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Or if Ellen got a variant/update of the Copy spell that allows her to also copy abilities (perhaps only to herself, not to paste them on someone else).

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6 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Or if Ellen got a variant/update of the Copy spell that allows her to also copy abilities (perhaps only to herself, not to paste them on someone else).

So Ellen can copy and paste her own form and abilities from herself to herself?

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14 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Or if Ellen got a variant/update of the Copy spell that allows her to also copy abilities (perhaps only to herself, not to paste them on someone else).

The "Copy" spell ALWAYS targets Ellen - unlike the "Paste" one.

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