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Stature

Story Wednesday July 19, 2017

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7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Yeah, I've been expecting a reset for Pandora once the current storyline is over for quite a while.  Personally, I'm hoping she ends up the college student from the Mall, and Sarah's dorm roommate. ;)

I can see her wanting to be a presence in her son's life as well as the lives of her extended family and the friend she has made, and they would definitely be more comfortable with a reset to sane immortal.

 

5 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

I dunno, it might be easier to let go if you could see your descendants spreading out across the world, than it would be to say goodbye to your only child, knowing your love for him would be forgotten....and especially if there were hard feelings and misunderstandings between you!

Perhaps.  That seems close to how some of us humans accept our mortality, by virtue of our legacy.  I think I can even see that being true now with Pandora, as she seems almost completely sane now.  I can also see Immortals for whom this would not be the case.

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43 minutes ago, Drasvin said:

Back on the original topic, I wonder how often Pandora has had this argument with herself. She knows she needs to let go, but the emotive part of her psyche won't let her. It hurts too much. It's certainly an excellent example of why the Immortals/fairies lied to their future incarnations about elves being able to procreate. Just imagine this level of mental and emotional strain over an entire lineage, possibly one that winds and spreads over the globe.

I can... without the need to die an immortal might know it's time to reset, but want to wait until their grandchildren grow up. They do so. Grandchildren marry young and have kids long before the age of 18 or complete physical maturity due to ancient customs. This cycle repeats and repeats, and then they end up flitting between a lot of descendants, all of which they have a personal attachment to. 

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6 minutes ago, animalia said:

What I want to know is why elves don't have the same problem with insanity.

Consider how Mr. Raven was acting in his early appearances. Since he's the only elf we've seen, for all we know, he's the sanest elf in the world.

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18 minutes ago, animalia said:

What I want to know is why elves don't have the same problem with insanity.

Maybe their agelessness starts to fade once their parent resets?

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22 minutes ago, animalia said:

What I want to know is why elves don't have the same problem with insanity.

Elves likely don't have ever expanding magical and cognative abilities like their parents, which would help curb the boredom that causes instability in Immortals. Also while elves are restricted in what they can do, they are less restricted than their parents. Immortals are limited to (broadly) "empower and guide," while elves are just restricted to when magic and magical things are involved. (Adrian is allowed to directly engage and attempt to kill Abraham, while Pandora has to rely on other individuals to try to kill the wizard that hurt her son.) This gives elves more ways to keep themselves grounded and preoccupied.

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25 minutes ago, animalia said:

What I want to know is why elves don't have the same problem with insanity.

From Jerry, it appears to be that with perfect memories and increasing intelligence, Immortals become almost clairvoyant, able to predict the actions of others, leading to boredom that seems to lead to insanity.  Combined with increasing power, that becomes dangerous.  I would hazard to guess that elves don't have perfect memories and/or the continually ramping up of intelligence and power.

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18 hours ago, Illjwamh said:

Panel 5 is the first time I remember seeing Pandora even imply that she knows it's time for her to restart.

Actually, she may not realize that normal (mortal) parents don't have that much problem with staying focused ...

18 hours ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

Tedd having sympathy for an immortal in the last panel? Last thing I would have expected.

Pandora has unique strategy for therapy: she's so obviously unstable that the people in need of therapy would feel more stable in comparison.

9 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

I did not see that coming.  I thought Tedd would be needing hugs but it looks like Pandora is the one who does.

One doesn't negate the other. I'm sure Tedd still needs hugs, but Pandora needs them more.

17 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

ETA: I also see the first hint of a possible non-selfish motivation for Noriko to withdraw from Tedd. Maybe she was afraid that her profession would draw dangerous attention to Tedd and potentially make him a target for anyone who wanted to get at her. It is not as if this hasn't precedent.

Hmmm ... I think this reason was already mentioned, but not recently ...

17 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

(It is usually also complete codswallop and the idiot doing it ends up doing more harm than good, but there you are.)

Well, her profession WOULD draw dangerous attention to Tedd. Actually it already did. Only codswallop bit is the idea that leaving will help with this. Tedd will be target because he's important for her - that will NOT change by her being on different continent.

9 hours ago, Sjmcc13 said:

If she cared about Tedd they would have done things in a way so in Tedd's mind he knew she loved him and cared, but circumstances were keeping her away. 

Now, people lie to themselves about their reasons for doing things all the time, and this might be the lie Noriko told herself to feel better about leaving, but it does not match with her actions. There is also the coldness between edward and Raven, as well as Raven admitting that there is no chance of reconciliation, if she left for Tedds own good these would not be as bad as they seem. 

It is also possible that she had this reason, mentioned it to Edward, they started to argue and then it went downhill from that ...

7 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

You want your son strong enough to protect himself, then support him and get him teachers who can teach other skills.  As Pandora herself said, any random fool with a gun can still best a wizard.  Get him trained in martial and weapon arts if you are worried.

Yup, sounds like better strategy if you think about it logically. Of course, logical thinking is scarce when feelings are involved ...

3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
3 hours ago, Drasvin said:

It's certainly an excellent example of why the Immortals/fairies lied to their future incarnations about elves being able to procreate. Just imagine this level of mental and emotional strain over an entire lineage, possibly one that winds and spreads over the globe.

I dunno, it might be easier to let go if you could see your descendants spreading out across the world, than it would be to say goodbye to your only child, knowing your love for him would be forgotten....and especially if there were hard feelings and misunderstandings between you!

... again, logical thinking is scarce when feelings are involved. Lying to their future incarnation might SEEM like good idea under the mental and emotional strain ...

7 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:
8 hours ago, animalia said:

I meant as SOON as he heard the prophecy. You know before he had a chance to kill or marry anyone. It's kind of hard to kill or marry anyone if you are dead.

But, that assumes he knows he's fated to fail no matter what he tries.  He reasonably took actions to remove himself from the prophecy.  Now, short of suicide, since that seems like the last report, how about taking vows to nevery marry and never kill; chastity and pacifism seem more reasonable than suicide and would have been stronger ways to avoid his fate.  Granted, even being a pacifist, it's possible he might have been responsible for killing someone, but accidentally marrying?  That would take some serious manipulation on the part of the Fates.

The point of the story is that you can't avoid fate. Maybe the harder you are trying the harder fate responds. Being forced to marriage CAN happen ; also, no vow would help you if you lose memory later. Maybe not even suicide would help him.

We are used to not being able to change the past, but fated future might be just as hard to change as past.

1 hour ago, Tuscahoma said:
2 hours ago, animalia said:

What I want to know is why elves don't have the same problem with insanity.

From Jerry, it appears to be that with perfect memories and increasing intelligence, Immortals become almost clairvoyant, able to predict the actions of others, leading to boredom that seems to lead to insanity.  Combined with increasing power, that becomes dangerous.  I would hazard to guess that elves don't have perfect memories and/or the continually ramping up of intelligence and power.

They might get more powerful with age, but not more intelligent and the speed of power increase would be much lower, because it would be just based on experience and training, while for Immortals it seems like their power automatically keeps growing even without them doing anything.

2 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Also while elves are restricted in what they can do, they are less restricted than their parents. Immortals are limited to (broadly) "empower and guide," while elves are just restricted to when magic and magical things are involved. (Adrian is allowed to directly engage and attempt to kill Abraham, while Pandora has to rely on other individuals to try to kill the wizard that hurt her son.) This gives elves more ways to keep themselves grounded and preoccupied.

... that might help too.

 

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3 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Actually, she may not realize that normal (mortal) parents don't have that much problem with staying focused ...

You don't have any kids, do you?

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18 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:
22 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Actually, she may not realize that normal (mortal) parents don't have that much problem with staying focused ...

You don't have any kids, do you?

No. I still think her problems with focusing are bigger than mortal parents's.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Well, her profession WOULD draw dangerous attention to Tedd. Actually it already did. Only codswallop bit is the idea that leaving will help with this.

Since that is the part I was criticising, yeah, that is pretty much a given.

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

No. I still think her problems with focusing are bigger than mortal parents's.

I suspect Dan's conception of Pandora has changed quite a lot. My "long nap" theory is a way to justify how monstrous she was behaving back in Sister II and how much more caring and responsible she's been acting since the beginning of this arc--and how much better she behaved before Blaike's death.

However, it doesn't look to me that Pandora's conflicting feelings about what she should do or not do for her son is really any different from the conflicting feelings mortal parents who love their children have. What's really causing her special problems is the conflict between the restrictions on Immortal relations with humans and her attachment to her son.

Let's look at the four Immortals we've seen so far. Old Jerry was essentially like pre-Blaike Pandora: The hammers were essentially a prank, more elaborate than chicken hats, but harmless. Helen and Demetrius have set themselves a mission, and they've made two questionable decisions (using Susan and Nanase in France, and getting distracted from guarding Elliot by the vampires and not finding a way to bring in professional help, that is, Dad's Government Business. But they don't seem to be on a vendetta like Pandora's werewolf extermination campaign, so they fall between Old Jerry and Scary Pandora.

Voltaire has some goal, but exactly what it is, we don't know yet. He obviously doesn't like all the restrictions Immortal law place on what he can do with mortals. But why did he inform Sirleck about Adrian? While Sirleck might take that as meaning that Helena is Adrian's mother, Voltaire knows that his mother is Pandora. Why? Because Voltaire set up Pandora with the image on Dex's amulet. Whatever Voltaire's ultimate goal is, it probably involves targeting Pandora.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Voltaire to appear again. A good relationship between Pandora and Tedd probably doesn't figure in his plans.

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4 hours ago, spyrkle10 said:

I can... without the need to die an immortal might know it's time to reset, but want to wait until their grandchildren grow up. They do so. Grandchildren marry young and have kids long before the age of 18 or complete physical maturity due to ancient customs. This cycle repeats and repeats, and then they end up flitting between a lot of descendants, all of which they have a personal attachment to. 

But if you're bouncing around among dozens or hundreds of grands, greats, and thrice-removeds, then you're spending less time with any given individual.  Spread yourself too thin, and you don't really care all that deeply about any given individual descendant.  It would be far more dangerous if an Immortal had one or two favorites out of each generation, but that would also mean there's always the chance of everyone you actually care about directly dying before you get attached to anyone else.  Only the abstract idea of family would remain.

4 hours ago, animalia said:

What I want to know is why elves don't have the same problem with insanity.

As others have said, they don't get the continually growing power, sharpening memory, and near-clairvoyance, but I think there's more to it than that.  An elf is still living life one day at a time, like anyone else, meeting new friends as they loose touch with old ones, perhaps raising children even if they (think they) can't have them themselves, seeing them grow up and leave to make their own lives.  Working and having colleagues and friends.  No traveling to the other side of the planet on a whim, no weeks-long naps, no disappearing into other planes of existence.  Elves stay grounded, they stay a part of society, they stay close to other people.

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33 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Elves stay grounded, they stay a part of society, they stay close to other people.

Again, we've only seen one elf, unless there are others who don't know they're elves. I can think of two candidates.

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54 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

I suspect Dan's conception of Pandora has changed quite a lot. My "long nap" theory is a way to justify how monstrous she was behaving back in Sister II and how much more caring and responsible she's been acting since the beginning of this arc--and how much better she behaved before Blaike's death.

She might not actually require any reason to behave inconsistently.

54 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

However, it doesn't look to me that Pandora's conflicting feelings about what she should do or not do for her son is really any different from the conflicting feelings mortal parents who love their children have.

The conflicting feelings are very similar, but she has losing sanity on top of it.

43 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:
5 hours ago, animalia said:

What I want to know is why elves don't have the same problem with insanity.

As others have said, they don't get the continually growing power, sharpening memory, and near-clairvoyance, but I think there's more to it than that.  An elf is still living life one day at a time, like anyone else, meeting new friends as they loose touch with old ones, perhaps raising children even if they (think they) can't have them themselves, seeing them grow up and leave to make their own lives.  Working and having colleagues and friends.  No traveling to the other side of the planet on a whim, no weeks-long naps, no disappearing into other planes of existence.  Elves stay grounded, they stay a part of society, they stay close to other people.

Technically, we don't know if (young) Jerry can travel to the other side of the planet easily OR if Adrian doesn't have spell allowing him to do that. The other planes of existence would be more important, but even with such abilities one can remain grounded. I think it's actually the restrictions of immortal law which makes so hard for immortals to stay close to other people and become part of society. Still, even with those restrictions, Pandora got pretty close to that when with Blaike. So ... maybe it's more about choice and what you consider normal?

I think that even elves who decide to stay out of society won't get insane as fast as full immortals, but on the other hand they likely won't remain stable as long as Adrian Raven.

And one additional point: even if elves go insane, their limited power makes them less dangerous. Immortals going insane can ignore immortal law and make lot of damage before they will be forcibly reset.

8 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:
43 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Elves stay grounded, they stay a part of society, they stay close to other people.

Again, we've only seen one elf, unless there are others who don't know they're elves. I can think of two candidates.

We saw at least ten people descendent from fairies, but only one is known to be in first generation and I find very unlikely we have candidates for more.

Susan and Diane being possibly related to Adrian specifically instead of some unknown immortal won't make them more elvish.

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7 hours ago, animalia said:

What I want to know is why elves don't have the same problem with insanity.

 

7 hours ago, Sjmcc13 said:

Maybe their agelessness starts to fade once their parent resets?

This is what I suspected until Hecka's most recent revelation.

Upon the reset of an Immortal, the not-fully immortal children of said immortal would become mortalish.  They would have less magic, but the ability to reproduce.

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If Noriko had a child by Adrian, and the child is a girl, and Adrian is also the real father of Susan and Diane, that girl would be a third sister, wouldn't she?

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Dan has made a peculiar choice to illustrate that Tedd's Dad has powerful allies when you look at this page. Arthur is saying that "the problem" could be solved "for decades" with one more incident. If Arthur has figured out or been tipped off that Tedd is a seer and what that means, then a fully operational Tedd is not what is wanted to suppress magic for decades. Perhaps Arthur is another mortal being guided by Voltaire?

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I can easily buy that limited interaction with people, hurts fairies sanity. There is a reason the doctor keeps companions around and while it isn't the exact same thing, there are similarities in that the keep the doctor grounded.

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3 minutes ago, animalia said:

I can easily buy that limited interaction with people, hurts fairies sanity.

Perhaps another indication that Voltaire is crazier than Pandora.

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15 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Perhaps another indication that Voltaire is crazier than Pandora.

Doesn't hurt that Voltaire is the only fairy shown to DELIBERATELY try to get people killed. On that note I wonder if Elliot has a special nature of his own. In every universe we've seen but one Elliot has had a relationship with Tedd and we all know how Tedd turned out in the universe where Elliot is absent. Combine that with the fact that (in this universe at least) Elliot has been described by Mr. Verres as being born with "the personality of a Boy Scout" and I can't help but wonder if Elliot's role, ss magic would see it at least, is to be a restraining bolt for Tedd or other seers like him.

This makes me wonder how Elliot would take the news. On one hand he wouldn't resent being there for Tedd, on the other hand I can see him feeling manipulated and resenting it.

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6 hours ago, animalia said:

Doesn't hurt that Voltaire is the only fairy shown to DELIBERATELY try to get people killed. On that note I wonder if Elliot has a special nature of his own. In every universe we've seen but one Elliot has had a relationship with Tedd and we all know how Tedd turned out in the universe where Elliot is absent. Combine that with the fact that (in this universe at least) Elliot has been described by Mr. Verres as being born with "the personality of a Boy Scout" and I can't help but wonder if Elliot's role, ss magic would see it at least, is to be a restraining bolt for Tedd or other seers like him.

This makes me wonder how Elliot would take the news. On one hand he wouldn't resent being there for Tedd, on the other hand I can see him feeling manipulated and resenting it.

You know, he does seem out of the ordinary in an ordinary way.  I mean, look, he like an everyman in some ways, very easygoing, simple tastes, wants to be a homebody and hang with friends, but then he is The Boy Scout.  He wants to protect people so he learns Anime Martial Arts; he wants to become a superhero and eventually becomes one.  He is happiest when his friends are happy.  He has essentially saved Tedd and Justin.  His parents take the weirdness in their lives disturbingly well.  Helena and Demetrius following Elliot.  Magus needing Ellen to shoot Elliot to regain his body.

That boy is either the Pawn in some Being's Chessgame (or maybe Knight) or is a serious weirdness magnet.

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3 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

You know, he does seem out of the ordinary in an ordinary way.  I mean, look, he like an everyman in some ways, very easygoing, simple tastes, wants to be a homebody and hang with friends, but then he is The Boy Scout.  He wants to protect people so he learns Anime Martial Arts; he wants to become a superhero and eventually becomes one.  He is happiest when his friends are happy.  He has essentially saved Tedd and Justin.  His parents take the weirdness in their lives disturbingly well.  Helena and Demetrius following Elliot.  Magus needing Ellen to shoot Elliot to regain his body.

That boy is either the Pawn in some Being's Chessgame (or maybe Knight) or is a serious weirdness magnet.

Catspaw!

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16 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:
23 hours ago, Sjmcc13 said:

Maybe their agelessness starts to fade once their parent resets?

This is what I suspected until Hecka's most recent revelation.

Upon the reset of an Immortal, the not-fully immortal children of said immortal would become mortalish.  They would have less magic, but the ability to reproduce.

Heka revealed the reproduction is not the case, but their lifespan might STILL be limited by their parent resetting.

15 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

If Noriko had a child by Adrian, and the child is a girl, and Adrian is also the real father of Susan and Diane, that girl would be a third sister, wouldn't she?

Susan and Diane are not Adrians daughters but at least granddaughters.

12 hours ago, animalia said:

Doesn't hurt that Voltaire is the only fairy shown to DELIBERATELY try to get people killed.

If you don't count werewolves as people, at least.

12 hours ago, animalia said:

On that note I wonder if Elliot has a special nature of his own. In every universe we've seen but one Elliot has had a relationship with Tedd and we all know how Tedd turned out in the universe where Elliot is absent. Combine that with the fact that (in this universe at least) Elliot has been described by Mr. Verres as being born with "the personality of a Boy Scout" and I can't help but wonder if Elliot's role, ss magic would see it at least, is to be a restraining bolt for Tedd or other seers like him.

"Restraining bolt" isn't how I would call it, but yes, he is certainly important ... Pandora clearly said he's Tedds-- ...

6 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

That boy is either the Pawn in some Being's Chessgame (or maybe Knight) or is a serious weirdness magnet.

But was he weirdness magnet from birth or only from becoming friend with Tedd?

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21 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

However, it doesn't look to me that Pandora's conflicting feelings about what she should do or not do for her son is really any different from the conflicting feelings mortal parents who love their children have. What's really causing her special problems is the conflict between the restrictions on Immortal relations with humans and her attachment to her son.

I think this proves that even Fairies can be Human. At least emotionally.

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:
15 hours ago, animalia said:

Doesn't hurt that Voltaire is the only fairy shown to DELIBERATELY try to get people killed.

If you don't count werewolves as people, at least.

Pandora did try to have Magus get Edward to kill Abraham.

 

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