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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
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3 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

And, yes ... long term, they may fix the sky. Or the bug in programming which made machines not consider nuclear power :) I think that the AI's in Matrix are limited, that humans actually can invent stuff they can't. And it's possible Neo made them realize how necessary that is.

The Machines have the manufacturing capabilities, but Humans are capable of thinking outside the box. I think The matrix was intentionally kept within the setting it was to prevent Humans from doing anything that might be detrimental to the system. The Machines would have controlled what people learned and taken steps when someone tried to invent something new if it was deemed potentially dangerous, the Agents would have done this.  As far as nuclear power goes, maybe they considered it, but decided that it was a finite resource, Humans as a managed resource might be deemed a longer lasting source of energy, I dunno. In any case Humans that remain in the matrix might still be useful in coming up with solutions to cleaning up the planet and such if the AIs loosened restrictions.

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25 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Most humans probably wouldn't WANT to be freed anyway. In fact, I'm sure Architect has pretty good estimates about how many humans want out of matrix so he knows it won't be problem for long time.

And, yes ... long term, they may fix the sky. Or the bug in programming which made machines not consider nuclear power :) I think that the AI's are limited, that humans actually can invent stuff they can't.

Morpheus describes most humans as dependent on the Matrix and especially once they get an idea of what the outside world is like, most aren't going to want to go.

Things like the environmental damage inflicted by the humans do tend to correct themselves over the long haul but it is possible that the machines don't have much ability to think laterally.

25 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I think it was just hundreds and yes, they have problems understanding that stability is not best solution.

Hundreds would be the way to bet but Morpheus says the humans dont know and the Architect's conversation with Neo suggested any number of prior Ones before him

25 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Then your guess was surprisingly correct.

I specifically talk about those ON the battle field. In book it was mentioned that after Sauron's dead, there were still some smaller battles with allied humans, but none with orcs or trolls. Those simply lost the will to fight.

I tend to think I was a bit lucky.  I pretty much just threw everything at the wall that Gandalf might say to deflect blame.

Losing the will to fight has plenty of connotations.  if for example Suron's power drove them to fight, removing it could leave them temporarily drained.  neither orcs nor Trolls seem a race to turn meek and mild for any long amount of time.  :) 

25 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

That sounds like noone tried yet, but there ARE stories like that. Not from the big houses, though. THOSE go for quantity, not quality

Neither marvel nor DC has gambled their universes on your idea, no. 

I'm pretty sure people have tried stuff like that with worlds intended for the long haul (Marvel's New Universe from the 80s might qualify it's been 30 years since I read the comics and I don't own any because I didn't like the stories much).  It's too obvious an idea to stay entirely on the shelf.

25 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Machine would never say that. Actually generate sounds using muscles? WiFi is much cheaper than talking. :)

Unfortunately, few lines of dialogue is cheaper than 30 minutes bonus movie on topic of how machines actually fulfilled the contract ... nevertheless, I'm convinced the authors MEANT architect to be sincere.

And from the meta perspective ... if the war started because humans were paranoid and feared AI's will enslave them, your unwillingness to accept the possibility Architect will keep his word is example of the same way of thinking.

Morpheus said "we don't know who struck first."  But if independent and uncontrolled machines start amassing economic and military power, any smart human *is* going to be concerned about that.  And rightly so.

Yesh it's probable that the Watchowskis meant the Architect to be genuine.  I tend to think that's retcon.  I don't think the machines as presented in the first matrix film would have been genuine though.

If "talk is cheap" isn't the right phrase, try "information exchange is cheap."  Actions show intent much more plainly than an information stream., no matter how detailed or appealing.  What is the Architect willing to do to demonstrate his intentions?   Are the machines willing to make reparations?  During World War 2, there were still American admirals and generals that distrusted the british..

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51 minutes ago, Scotty said:

The Machines have the manufacturing capabilities, but Humans are capable of thinking outside the box. I think The matrix was intentionally kept within the setting it was to prevent Humans from doing anything that might be detrimental to the system. The Machines would have controlled what people learned and taken steps when someone tried to invent something new if it was deemed potentially dangerous, the Agents would have done this.

I think it was the other way around - The matrix was kept within the setting because the machines were unable to think of anything better. Except the first version which probably had other problems on top of "not enough suffering".

53 minutes ago, Scotty said:

As far as nuclear power goes, maybe they considered it, but decided that it was a finite resource

If they had fusion ... well, technically it's finite resource, but hydrogen is the most common stuff in universe.

But maybe they don't have fusion. Hell, they seem to not be able to get on orbit.

52 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Hundreds would be the way to bet but Morpheus says the humans dont know and the Architect's conversation with Neo suggested any number of prior Ones before him

There may easily be one One every 50 years.

53 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I pretty much just threw everything at the wall that Gandalf might say to deflect blame.

Well it wasn't to deflect blame. Apparently, neither Frodo nor Gimli called him on it being nonethical.  I guess Frodo was busy writing and Gimli just complained they didn't took him with them. Also accused Gandalf he is still not saying the whole truth - and he just replied "of course I don't".

On second though, maybe they didn't DARE to protest.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

if for example Suron's power drove them to fight, removing it could leave them temporarily drained.

Exactly what I though about.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Morpheus said "we don't know who struck first."  But if independent and uncontrolled machines start amassing economic and military power, any smart human *is* going to be concerned about that.  And rightly so.

How much control you think Google has over their search?

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Yesh it's probable that the Watchowskis meant the Architect to be genuine.  I tend to think that's retcon.  I don't think the machines as presented in the first matrix film would have been genuine though.

Machines weren't presented in the first movie - only agents were, and those were programmed to police ... and Agent Smith might already be broken.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

If "talk is cheap" isn't the right phrase, try "information exchange is cheap."  Actions show intent much more plainly than an information stream., no matter how detailed or appealing. 

Yes, it was a joke.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

What is the Architect willing to do to demonstrate his intentions?

He stopped the attack on Zion. When they practically already won. And recalled the attacking sentinels. Sounds like pretty good demonstration of good intentions, isn't it? And it's not like Neo would be able to verify what he did.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Are the machines willing to make reparations? 

Would Zion WANT their help?

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I think it was the other way around - The matrix was kept within the setting because the machines were unable to think of anything better. Except the first version which probably had other problems on top of "not enough suffering".

I thought they tried different settings but found that late 20th century was the most ideal for keeping Humans from questioning too much.

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14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I think it was the other way around - The matrix was kept within the setting because the machines were unable to think of anything better. Except the first version which probably had other problems on top of "not enough suffering".

Nor is Agent Smith's version of events anything resembling unbiased.

14 hours ago, Scotty said:

I thought they tried different settings but found that late 20th century was the most ideal for keeping Humans from questioning too much.

Smith only tells us that they tried creating a "perfect world" and failed.  Implicit in Smith's saying "Some thought we didn't have the programming language" to create a perfect world is the idea that they tried multiple different versions of "perfect world" at the very least.  Building on that, they probably tried multiple historical settings as well. 

14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

But maybe they don't have fusion. Hell, they seem to not be able to get on orbit.

Which is strange, I agree.  In fairness fusion wouldn't help you get to orbit very easily either.

14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

There may easily be one One every 50 years.

At least 50 years, agreed.  It takes a while for someone to pass into legend.  But if there have been N Ones before Neo, N*[50+ years) gets closer to over 1000 years the larger the time between Ones is and the larger N is.

14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Well it wasn't to deflect blame. Apparently, neither Frodo nor Gimli called him on it being nonethical.  I guess Frodo was busy writing and Gimli just complained they didn't took him with them. Also accused Gandalf he is still not saying the whole truth - and he just replied "of course I don't".

On second though, maybe they didn't DARE to protest.

Gandalf was/is something akin to an archangel so there might be some point to not questioning.  And calling ancient wise powers on their collective crap is a concept which only came in wide use in the late 20th century.

14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

How much control you think Google has over their search?

over the algorithms of the search and what gets displayed?  I'd expect a lot.  The EU recently fined Google a heft sum for the way they presented their results.

What I wouldn't expect they do is edit the huge amount of data that goes into which search results to display.

Bottom line: Humans control the economic power implicit in the google search engine.

14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Machines weren't presented in the first movie - only agents were, and those were programmed to police ... and Agent Smith might already be broken.

If you take Smith in the context of all 3 movies, yeah he was already broken.  As Smith himself speculated, he had become "humanized" to a degree.

But if you take the first movie by itself, a very clear portrait of the machines emerges with Smith as their spokesman:  The machines want to destroy all humans that aren't powering them. 

The Watchowskis made a lot of clumsy and obvious changes and retcons to shoehorn The Architect and his presentation of the machines into their universe.  Reloaded and Revolutions were far less successful than the first because of those changes.  I'm not fond of them myself.

15 hours ago, hkmaly said:

He stopped the attack on Zion. When they practically already won. And recalled the attacking sentinels. Sounds like pretty good demonstration of good intentions, isn't it? And it's not like Neo would be able to verify what he did.

Would Zion WANT their help?

The machines were also taking punishing losses.

We're already agreed that the Architect was presented in the movie as being genuine.  The question becomes what show of faith would the people of Zion except?  Calling off the attack is not enough.

And no, Zion probably would not want the machines' help.  But they might need it.  Especially if they wanted to recolonize the surface. 

Without the machines to fight, Zion could turn into a 24/7 dance party.  If the machines provide the spotlights and mirror balls it might all be good right there.  :)

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I know this is now really off topic here, but I kinda wonder if the Machines purposefully had this cycle going to try to get the Humans to do something different. For all the previous incarnations of Zion and The One, Humanity failed to win the war because they tried to fight back, and then we get Neo, who sees a problem developing in the system and goes to the machines and basically says "You know what? We gotta stop the fighting or everything's just going to implode on itself". For the first time, a Human asked for peace, which is probably what the Machines were hoping for, why they didn't just eradicate Humanity, the enslavement was just punishment for Humanity's arrogance and Neo would have been proof that the punishment served it's purpose.

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5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
19 hours ago, Scotty said:

I thought they tried different settings but found that late 20th century was the most ideal for keeping Humans from questioning too much.

Smith only tells us that they tried creating a "perfect world" and failed.  Implicit in Smith's saying "Some thought we didn't have the programming language" to create a perfect world is the idea that they tried multiple different versions of "perfect world" at the very least.  Building on that, they probably tried multiple historical settings as well. 

But it's still possible that they had multiple problems - for example with the other historical settings being poorly documented or their information poisoned by missconceptions - and the 20th century was just the best they were able to come with.

Also, I think the idea of dividing people into multiple words based on which they fit more didn't occurred to them.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

On second though, maybe they didn't DARE to protest.

Gandalf was/is something akin to an archangel so there might be some point to not questioning.  And calling ancient wise powers on their collective crap is a concept which only came in wide use in the late 20th century.

Akin? The biggest difference between Gandalf and archangel is that Gandalf doesn't have wings. While in middle-earth at least.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

How much control you think Google has over their search?

over the algorithms of the search and what gets displayed?  I'd expect a lot.  The EU recently fined Google a heft sum for the way they presented their results.

EU fining them doesn't mean they can influence it. Also, the fine was specifically over position of price-comparators. The core of Google search index is likely using neural nets or something similar and might already reached point when engineers of Google are honestly unable to say why something went up or down.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Bottom line: Humans control the economic power implicit in the google search engine.

True. Also, they still can just turn it off.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

If you take Smith in the context of all 3 movies, yeah he was already broken.  As Smith himself speculated, he had become "humanized" to a degree.

But if you take the first movie by itself, a very clear portrait of the machines emerges with Smith as their spokesman:  The machines want to destroy all humans that aren't powering them. 

The Watchowskis made a lot of clumsy and obvious changes and retcons to shoehorn The Architect and his presentation of the machines into their universe.  Reloaded and Revolutions were far less successful than the first because of those changes.  I'm not fond of them myself.

I don't count THIS bit between those clumsy and obvious retcons. And I think even compared to other agents he was already looking broken in first movie.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

The machines were also taking punishing losses.

I don't think those losses were punishing to them. I think they could easily replace those sentinels. Remember they have experience with destroying Zion: they deliberately chose this strategy likely because it's best strategy they have.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

And no, Zion probably would not want the machines' help.  But they might need it.  Especially if they wanted to recolonize the surface. 

Yes.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Without the machines to fight, Zion could turn into a 24/7 dance party.  If the machines provide the spotlights and mirror balls it might all be good right there.  :)

Yes :)

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

I know this is now really off topic here, but I kinda wonder if the Machines purposefully had this cycle going to try to get the Humans to do something different. For all the previous incarnations of Zion and The One, Humanity failed to win the war because they tried to fight back, and then we get Neo, who sees a problem developing in the system and goes to the machines and basically says "You know what? We gotta stop the fighting or everything's just going to implode on itself". For the first time, a Human asked for peace, which is probably what the Machines were hoping for, why they didn't just eradicate Humanity, the enslavement was just punishment for Humanity's arrogance and Neo would have been proof that the punishment served it's purpose.

Machines? No. Architect? No. Oracle? Yeah totally.

The Oracle is independent program, likely the most different from all other AIs. And what you described definitely seem like her strategy. And there is little "I told you so" vibe from her conversation with Architect - she won and machines now seem to accept at least some of her theories, which they previously ignored.

 

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3 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

But it's still possible that they had multiple problems - for example with the other historical settings being poorly documented or their information poisoned by missconceptions - and the 20th century was just the best they were able to come with.

The machines didn't exactly have a "sorting hat" to magically tell them where everybody was supposed to go.  It's implied that there's only one virtual Earth in the matrix.  Late-20th Centry earth would hold the greatest number of people. 

To be honest I'm not sure I'm not sure why the machines wouldn't run multiple parallel earths, but nobody ever went looking for the Oarcle only to find they're on the wrong server.  :)

9 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Akin? The biggest difference between Gandalf and archangel is that Gandalf doesn't have wings. While in middle-earth at least.

I used "akin" because Gandalf has the same role in a different mythology.

11 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

EU fining them doesn't mean they can influence it. Also, the fine was specifically over position of price-comparators. The core of Google search index is likely using neural nets or something similar and might already reached point when engineers of Google are honestly unable to say why something went up or down.

True. Also, they still can just turn it off.

Price Comparators are a part of Google's search code.  My point was the EU fuly expected Google to be able to exercise control over their code.

I would expect that Gooogle's search code is too complex for a single engineer to keep in their head, but I'm not convinced it's too complex for them to understand.

Also the google search engine is not self-aware.

17 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I don't count THIS bit between those clumsy and obvious retcons. And I think even compared to other agents he was already looking broken in first movie.

The first matrix movie is in many ways similar to the first Star Wars film just using a cyberpunk settng.  In both cases the relative simplicity and accessibility of the story combined with some extremely innovative visuals and a little philosophy tucked in around the edges to make an entertaining and compelling film.  It's the second film in each of the universes where things diverged.  Star Wars wisely doubled-down on the good vs. evil aspect wheras the matrix Reloaded put its phlisophical underpinnings center stage and lost the majority of its audience.  That philosophy led directly to The Architect.

26 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I don't count THIS bit between those clumsy and obvious retcons. And I think even compared to other agents he was already looking broken in first movie.

Smith was an extreme even for an Agent, but the Sentinels actions were completely in line with Smith's thinking.   Despite any oddities other AIs might see in him, I think he still accurately expresses the machines' attitude towards humans even if he is more obsessed than most other Agents.

30 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think those losses were punishing to them. I think they could easily replace those sentinels. Remember they have experience with destroying Zion: they deliberately chose this strategy likely because it's best strategy they have

The machines can afford a "crunch all you want, we'll make more" attitude to a point.  But they need a minimum number of Sentinels to keep the human ships away from targets of interest.  Maybe they kept those forces in reserve or maybe they threw everything into their attack.  If they threw everything in and got chewed up, there comes a point where they would have to consider a retreat in order to have enough forces to maintain security.

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42 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Machines? No. Architect? No. Oracle? Yeah totally.

The Oracle is independent program, likely the most different from all other AIs. And what you described definitely seem like her strategy. And there is little "I told you so" vibe from her conversation with Architect - she won and machines now seem to accept at least some of her theories, which they previously ignored.

Because they're AIs that the machines programed, you can look at them as trying to guide Humanity in a certain direction, if you figure that The One would meet both and hear what each has to say and then in the end chose which one to follow. Every One before Neo would focused on the Architect as an enemy and therefore believed that they needed to fight. But Neo would have seen the Oracle as a friend and taken her advice in the end and try for peace.

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1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

The machines didn't exactly have a "sorting hat" to magically tell them where everybody was supposed to go.  It's implied that there's only one virtual Earth in the matrix.  Late-20th Centry earth would hold the greatest number of people. 

To be honest I'm not sure I'm not sure why the machines wouldn't run multiple parallel earths, but nobody ever went looking for the Oarcle only to find they're on the wrong server.  :)

... right. It might be because they only had one Oracle and one One and it would cause problems if some people would be in other simulation.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

I used "akin" because Gandalf has the same role in a different mythology.

It's true Middle-Earth mytology wasn't AS much thin-veiled as Christianity in Narnia. You can still see pretty lot of parallels.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Also the google search engine is not self-aware.

How would you know?

But maybe isn't. Yet.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

The first matrix movie is in many ways similar to the first Star Wars film just using a cyberpunk settng.  In both cases the relative simplicity and accessibility of the story combined with some extremely innovative visuals and a little philosophy tucked in around the edges to make an entertaining and compelling film.  It's the second film in each of the universes where things diverged.  Star Wars wisely doubled-down on the good vs. evil aspect wheras the matrix Reloaded put its phlisophical underpinnings center stage and lost the majority of its audience.  That philosophy led directly to The Architect.

Starwars did something similar later. But I'm not arguing against this. I'm just saying that even in the first movie agent Smith seemed broken.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Smith was an extreme even for an Agent, but the Sentinels actions were completely in line with Smith's thinking.   Despite any oddities other AIs might see in him, I think he still accurately expresses the machines' attitude towards humans even if he is more obsessed than most other Agents.

The sentinels didn't HATED humans. They were killing them, sure, but just because it was in plan. In fact I suspect sentinels are not true AI's like Smith, Architect or Oracle, but have relatively simple programming.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think those losses were punishing to them. I think they could easily replace those sentinels. Remember they have experience with destroying Zion: they deliberately chose this strategy likely because it's best strategy they have

The machines can afford a "crunch all you want, we'll make more" attitude to a point.  But they need a minimum number of Sentinels to keep the human ships away from targets of interest.  Maybe they kept those forces in reserve or maybe they threw everything into their attack.  If they threw everything in and got chewed up, there comes a point where they would have to consider a retreat in order to have enough forces to maintain security.

You are underestimating their strategy planning. IMHO they had enough Sentinels ready to defeat Zion even if Smith's trick wouldn't worked. Also, yes, they definitely left the "defense" Sentinels in place. The Sentinels Neo met weren't recalled from the battle with Zion.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Because they're AIs that the machines programed, you can look at them as trying to guide Humanity in a certain direction, if you figure that The One would meet both and hear what each has to say and then in the end chose which one to follow. Every One before Neo would focused on the Architect as an enemy and therefore believed that they needed to fight. But Neo would have seen the Oracle as a friend and taken her advice in the end and try for peace.

The premise of movie is that machines were true artificial intelligence, capable of learning and adapting. We saw how different programs developed different personality, on top of their original function. Oracle is one of such AI's, created to interpret aspects of the human psyche. I believe that through her study of human psyche, she came with theory how can world be changed if humans would be willing to risk peace. With Neo, she found a way to prove this theory.

Machines in Matrix are not Borg collective mind.

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On 8/4/2017 at 7:32 PM, hkmaly said:

It's true Middle-Earth mytology wasn't AS much thin-veiled as Christianity in Narnia. You can still see pretty lot of parallels.

Once you create a heavenly hierarchy rather than just a group of gods at the top, everything looks like christianity and its host of angels.  Or I suppose it looks like the heavenly bureaucracies of the Eastern mythologies. 

On 8/4/2017 at 7:32 PM, hkmaly said:

How would you know?

But maybe isn't. Yet.

:)

Self-awareness doesn't help the Google search engine do its job faster or better.

On 8/4/2017 at 7:32 PM, hkmaly said:

Starwars did something similar later. But I'm not arguing against this. I'm just saying that even in the first movie agent Smith seemed broken.

...and we all know what a great addition to the canon lore it was.  The screencap webcomic Darths and Droids does the best with midichhloreons of anybody I've seen.

On 8/4/2017 at 7:32 PM, hkmaly said:

The sentinels didn't HATED humans. They were killing them, sure, but just because it was in plan. In fact I suspect sentinels are not true AI's like Smith, Architect or Oracle, but have relatively simple programming.

I never said "hate".  I said "destroy all non power-source humans.".  That was the point of view Smith gives us and it's the point of view the Sentinels supported with their actions.  The Architect's "destroy only what you mean to rebuild" strategy is not present because (IMO) the Watchowskis didn't  intend it.  The Matrix, Like the 1977 Star Wars was made to be a standalone film.  They wedged the Architect and the altered view of view of the machines that came with him into their universe only after the first film was a hit and they contemplated sequels.

The ability to feel hatred seemed particular to Smith.  All other Agents we see seem very emotionless.  If you want to call this an indication that Smith was already broken, I can go with that.

I tend to think something of Neo's One-ness rubbed off on Smith when Neo destroyed him at the end of the first Matrix.  When Smith rebuilt himself he became a sort of AI-One.  We may remember from Reloaded that Neo gets Smith's earpiece in a box, representing Smith having become something unique and going rogue.

On 8/4/2017 at 7:32 PM, hkmaly said:

You are underestimating their strategy planning. IMHO they had enough Sentinels ready to defeat Zion even if Smith's trick wouldn't worked. Also, yes, they definitely left the "defense" Sentinels in place. The Sentinels Neo met weren't recalled from the battle with Zion.

Point taken.

 

On 8/4/2017 at 7:32 PM, hkmaly said:

The premise of movie is that machines were true artificial intelligence, capable of learning and adapting. We saw how different programs developed different personality, on top of their original function. Oracle is one of such AI's, created to interpret aspects of the human psyche. I believe that through her study of human psyche, she came with theory how can world be changed if humans would be willing to risk peace. With Neo, she found a way to prove this theory.

Machines in Matrix are not Borg collective mind.

I'll agree that this or something like this was the premise of Reloaded and Revolutions, but not the first film.  It's retcon.

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