story Story: Friday, October 28, 2016

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

A cell phone wouldn't rely on external electricity, so it's possible a cell phone would work but a desktop wouldn't.  If it is possible for a self-contained computer like a cell to function, then it might be able to get an internet connection.....with the relative speed of a dial-up modem, because of the difference in the rate at which time is passing inside vs outside.

[hkmaly 490]

Finally something else to react to than "it can't work period".

20 hours ago, chridd said:

While computers may or may not be usable in the simulation, I don't think Sarah's knowledge of how they work has anything to do with it.  If she just interacts with things physically (e.g., by pushing keys on the keyboard or the computer's power button or moving the mouse or opening a laptop's lid), then everything's based on actual reality and Sarah's knowledge and expectations are irrelevant.  If she uses her modify-the-simulation abilities, then the computer will probably just show what she expects (i.e., inaccurate simulation), just like Grace did, again with knowledge of the inner working irrelevant, but she has to choose to use those abilities; this won't just happen if she tries to push buttons on a sufficiently complicated machine.

She can almost certainly use her modify-the-simulation abilities to interact with the computer in a way that just shows what she expects (like she did with Grace).  A more interesting question is whether she can interact with a computer without using those abilities, i.e., what will happen if she pressed buttons and such.  My guess is that that wouldn't do anything (similar to talking to a frozen person), because while she can move the keys on the keyboard, the rest of the computer and the electricity powering the computer is frozen; pressing the key could would complete a circuit that no electricity is flowing through; and there's no clear way to physically interact with the computer to get electricity flowing.  If any electric or electronic devices work in the simulation, then, there's probably some special case in the spell (which is definitely possible); but also if pressing buttons on the computer actually does do things, then it will be accurate because she didn't use the ability that makes the spell inaccurate.

Hmmm ... I'm not sure if I emphasized it enough but yes, her having to CHOOSE to use the ability was one of my points. And, yes, unlike door, computer doesn't respond directly on mechanical force, instead it periodically (using it's internal timer) check if some circuit is closed. (Keyboard is basically grid and chip ; the chip periodically tries "column 1 row 1, not connected ; column 1 row 2, not connected ; column 1 row 3, not connected ..." ... which is why it sometimes fail to recognize what is pressed if you press multiple keys at once, especially if it's cheap keyboard.)

20 hours ago, chridd said:

There's a possibility that someone skilled enough with the spell could use the modify-the-simulation ability without decreasing its accuracy, and it's possible that knowing how the thing you're trying to interact with could help with that

It's not possible to use modify-the-simulation without decreasing the accuracy at all, but it IS possible to use in in way which decrease the accuracy only little. Like ... in the case of computer, you will likely decrease the accuracy less if you just make the electricity flowing from the wall than if you do something with computer directly.

Knowing how things are supposed to work definitely helps, question is how detailed knowledge will be useful. Like, the fact that computer need electricity is part of knowing how it works, but pretty basic.

20 hours ago, weirdee said:

oh, so that's why the spell uses an excessive amount of energy

Found it meanwhile and it was on tumblr: It’s the initial investment that’s so costly. Once it’s in her mind, there’s very little magic upkeep. When she uses the spell, however, it’s basically sending out a spherical wave of magic data gathering that has to make ridiculously detailed notes of everything it encounters.

Note that "ridiculously" is not exact size, but it does suggest better-than-naked-eye-visible accuracy.

6 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

A cell phone wouldn't rely on external electricity, so it's possible a cell phone would work but a desktop wouldn't.  If it is possible for a self-contained computer like a cell to function, then it might be able to get an internet connection.....with the relative speed of a dial-up modem, because of the difference in the rate at which time is passing inside vs outside.

Desktop computer requires external electricity, but notebook have battery. Cell phone or smartphone have battery, but BTS station (the thing phones connect to) likely requires external electricity (although they MIGHT have some sort of battery for emergencies).

The rate difference is not going to turn multimegabyte optical cable into dial-up modem ; problem is that dial-up modem was last device actually able to set speed. On Ethernet cable, the available speeds are 10, 100 and 1000 - you can't connect at all if you are at 50. Also, I suspect that there can be NO connection from simulation to outside (or from outside to simulation) after the initial data gathering.

[malloyd 23]

29 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Desktop computer requires external electricity, but notebook have battery. Cell phone or smartphone have battery, but BTS station (the thing phones connect to) likely requires external electricity (although they MIGHT have some sort of battery for emergencies).

I'm not sure it matters.  If electricity won't flow out of the wall socket, it won't flow out of the battery either.  But any debate about how the simulation works that assumes physics is pretty obviously nonsensical.  If stuff worked the way physics would require time stopped stuff to, Sarah wouldn't be able to see (no time for photons to cross her eyes), or move (even air is infinitely rigid).  It clearly works like basically all fictional time stops do, i.e. in ways that are complete nonsense physically but advance the story.

 

Pandora (or Dan) may have said something about accurate simulation, and may even believe it, but they're wrong.

 

[hkmaly 490]

22 minutes ago, malloyd said:

I'm not sure it matters.  If electricity won't flow out of the wall socket, it won't flow out of the battery either.

It certainly won't flow from wall socket because the power plant is outside the simulation range. Question if it would flow from battery is open ; it's true that so far it seems that all chemical reactions are frozen, although we only saw people ; pity we didn't saw for example what it does with open flame.

22 minutes ago, malloyd said:

If stuff worked the way physics would require time stopped stuff to, Sarah wouldn't be able to see (no time for photons to cross her eyes), or move (even air is infinitely rigid). 

Regarding move, she is only thing which can move AND provide force - or rather, she and things and people she unfroze with modification-of-simulation. Stuff frozen in middle air won't fall because gravitation is frozen. Everything reacts normally on force provided by Sarah, air, doors, Carol's hair, only people don't but that's because body swap is on hair trigger.

Regarding how she sees, yes, that would require little more complicated reasoning. If photons would be frozen, she wouldn't see. If they would keep moving (because they move at speed of light unlike other stuff), they would all be "spend" almost immediately and there would be no reason for more to appear. Best answer occurring to me, the photons she sees are sideefect of the spell.

22 minutes ago, malloyd said:

It clearly works like basically all fictional time stops do, i.e. in ways that are complete nonsense physically but advance the story.

Pandora (or Dan) may have said something about accurate simulation, and may even believe it, but they're wrong.

Pandora should know better

The snapshot itself may be accurate, but yes, the way Sarah explores it certainly requires rules which don't match normal physics, although they may (and presumably are) still be based on it.

[Cpt. Obvious 73]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

It certainly won't flow from wall socket because the power plant is outside the simulation range. Question if it would flow from battery is open ; it's true that so far it seems that all chemical reactions are frozen, although we only saw people ; pity we didn't saw for example what it does with open flame.

 

I'm not sure this really matters. If everything in Sara's snap shoot would rely on simulation of forces on the level of electric currents wouldn't that mean any electrical lamps in the snap shoot would go dark? And as the sun is beyond the limit of the snap shot there would be no light coming from that. Looks like it would get dark in there in a hurry...

The thing is it's magic at work. Not pretend magic using misdirection and optical illusions but real magic. And so far it seems magic doesn't care much for the laws of physics when it comes to things like levitation, creation of mass and destruction of mass, or just about anything else apart from truly stopping or reversing time.

If magic wants to it could allow Sara to use any computer included in the snapshot, but it's most likely that even then the information available would be restricted to what is in memory or any local storage devices. Anything stored any further away is unavailable so google docs, drop box or photobucket is unavailable, not to mention face book.

Note that there is no guarantee that magic will allow this, but it's entirely possible.

Now, INMHO, the most likely scenario is that any flame caught in the snap shoot will appear frozen, at least until Sara turns her concentration to it. I think the same goes for any computer, or even mechanical things such as an old wristwatch. Once she concentrates on something like this it will animate and do what she expects it to do. I do not expect any computer to be able to present accurate data that wasn't already on screen. However it will show something that meets her expectations and that's the same if it's a text file or if it's a game she's heard about, but it will be heavily flavored by her expectations and knowledge and not at all that accurate a representation of what actually is stored on this particular machine.

Right now only Dan knows for sure...
 

[hkmaly 490]

11 minutes ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

I'm not sure this really matters. If everything in Sara's snap shoot would rely on simulation of forces on the level of electric currents wouldn't that mean any electrical lamps in the snap shoot would go dark? And as the sun is beyond the limit of the snap shot there would be no light coming from that. Looks like it would get dark in there in a hurry...

Not it it's not real photons she is using to see

11 minutes ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

And so far it seems magic doesn't care much for the laws of physics when it comes to things like levitation, creation of mass and destruction of mass, or just about anything else apart from truly stopping or reversing time.

Nanase's fairy avatar with persistence is supposed to be hard (and rare). That may be general rule - that the spell is harder the more it violates physical laws. Susan's summoning doesn't create real physical objects, for example, and whatever Elliot modifies when morphing will eventually morph back.

14 minutes ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

If magic wants to it could allow Sara to use any computer included in the snapshot, but it's most likely that even then the information available would be restricted to what is in memory or any local storage devices. Anything stored any further away is unavailable so google docs, drop box or photobucket is unavailable, not to mention face book.

Definitely.

14 minutes ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

Note that there is no guarantee that magic will allow this, but it's entirely possible. Right now only Dan knows for sure...

Definitely

14 minutes ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

Now, INMHO, the most likely scenario is that any flame caught in the snap shoot will appear frozen, at least until Sara turns her concentration to it. I think the same goes for any computer, or even mechanical things such as an old wristwatch. Once she concentrates on something like this it will animate and do what she expects it to do.

Everything being frozen is said in the ninja explanation, yes. Now, does this "turning concentration" automatically count as modifying the simulation resulting in decreasing accuracy? Probably yes, but we don't know that for sure. We know that unfreezing people does count as such.

16 minutes ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

I do not expect any computer to be able to present accurate data that wasn't already on screen. However it will show something that meets her expectations and that's the same if it's a text file or if it's a game she's heard about, but it will be heavily flavored by her expectations and knowledge and not at all that accurate a representation of what actually is stored on this particular machine.

This is open question. Just because the simulation is no longer accurate, it doesn't mean that it changes into lucid dream. Pandora implied that different changes will affect the simulation with different strength. Now, will unfreezing computer be enough change to completely replace it's memory and disc with what Sarah is imagining? And would that be in principle, or because Sarah doesn't have enough experience with the spell? Could concentration on different parts of computer have different effect on accuracy?

(On the other hand, Pandora's description also seem to imply that even relatively small changes can have surprisingly large effects on simulation. Also, even small uncertainty will make informations obtained much less useful.)