Vorlonagent

Do you mean disliking the shape-shifting aspect? As in the possibility that there could be a "classic Pandora" body and a "Pandora Chaos Raven" body physically present on the "spirit plane" arguing with each other, both in addition to the Pandora body present in Tedd's basement?

It was actually a pretty OK time to leave Elliot unguarded. Voltaire wasn't trying to kill him yet. Lord Tedd's attempt to kill Tedd was years away, to say nothing of the creation of Ellen, needed for Magus. The only reason I can think of for a reset immediately at or after Nanase and Susan's France trip was to get through the process and begin accru8ng some power back before it all hit the fan. But the easier answer is choosing to reset once it's all over. Especially if they forsee the involvement of other Immortals, ESPECIALLY if they realize Pandora is involved. An unanswered question here is how long it takes for an Immortal to return after an improper reset. Jerry tells Susan that he'll be offline for a while, but it is a time measured in weeks. That's for a proper reset, however. How long for an improper reset and how long would it take before an improperly reset Immortal has their stuff together as much as H&D did when we first saw them? Given how long ago the France trip was, H&D's previous versions could have been around for as much as a couple of years more before improperly resetting by whatever means they reset. What were they doing?

I'm inclined to agree here. I'd expect that posing as Ed Verres would be a violation of Immortal law, which is why Voltaire used such roundabout means to try to kill Elliot...and that was the simple plan!

If H&D's previous lives had broken Immortal Law they would have reset immediately the moment they realized they crossed the line. That's how Pandora tells us it works. What they did with Nanase and Susan looks like textbook "Guide and Empower" stuff to me. I have a hard time pulling a violation out of it. They were shown as old enough to be ready to reset. But there are so many things they could have done besides intervene personally. Jerry talks about those too. The only point where they would have needed to act would be to save Susan from the Vampire's first attack. After that they could have easily handed the rest of the job off to someone else unless they had a reason for continuing to intervene, such as Awakening Nanase and Marking Susan. I find it improbable that Immortals who would know who Nanase and Susan are would be in the middle of a reset at the exact time when they are going abroad (a trip planned months in advance) and have to overextend themselves to help Nanase and Susan out. I can much more easily see them choosing to reset after having safely set Nanase and Susan on the path to power and having a third party interrupt the reset turning it from proper to improper.

Could be. We don't know. WHAT they retained through an improper reset seems a clue to why they were reset to me, and what they retained was "keep a close eye on Elliot." We know Elliot is at the heart of Magus' need for a new body, which is a part of some larger scheme of which we know little. And Voltaire wanted to use Eliot's death to scar Tedd on the way to his ultimate goal. It strikes me that either would be cause enough to improperly reset a couple of Immortals if they started getting too close. So why go looking for a reason?

Hanma wants to make a new hammer artifact, right? Her current project isn't directly related, but it is a proof of concept.

The fact that they retained knowledge of Elliot through an improper reset suggests that they might have known a lot about the Magus situation as well. I tend to think they were reset to bury the knowledge they had accumulated and they remembered just the one critical linchpin thing (Elliot), even if they had no context for it.

I think the Vampire attack on Susan was a setup. The immortals arranged it though I am not sure how. It furnished the two immortals with an excuse to "Guide and Empower" without looking creepy. I further think Susan getting paired with Nanase for the France trip was also a setup. The Immortals get a three-fer out of it Nanase awakened Susan dreaming and working toward awakening Dead vampire. They really seem to like dead vampires. With the possible bonus of Nanase and Susan teaming up when they "turn pro", though that last bit appears to be going to Ellen. C'est la vie... Edit: The Immortals knew about Nanase because they knew Moperville (proof of this: they knew who Elliot was and thought it was important enough to hold onto that info through an improper reset) if Elliot could show up on their radar, so could Susan.

I don't think anybody asked H&D to awaken Nanase. I think they decided to awaken Nanase and threw jump-starting Susan's Vampire Hunter heritage into the bargain.

I'm inclined to think a Vow is not something an Immortal remembers the way an Immortal remembers their past life. I guess we should be calling Jerry's new life "not-Jerry" since he doesn't use the name..... not-Jerry experiences his Vow a lot more strongly than he remembers Jerry's life. I'm inclined to think a vow is an Immortal magic effect. (they don't really cast spells per se) not a memory. I'm also inclined to think H&D's desire to follow Elliot is not a vow simply because they were able to stop following Elliot and manipulate Andrea into Vampire splaying.

But H&D remembered one important thing to them. In their case: follow Elliot. In Pandora's case it could be her son or Tedd. Or both. We know that Vows last past a reset. Pandora not matter how clueless will be reminded that she vowed to help Sarah.

As with Jerry she may have to keep them in her next life.

Or she can sense a not-necessarily-voluntary reset coming.

Also how could one not involve the Hammer Queen in the forging of a new hammer artifact.

Unfortunately that is the truth. She's too old and powerful to hang around. She's got to reset. This change in Pandora that makes her accessible enough to Sarah and Tedd is what looks like retcon. I just can't see why she stopped being the villain-Pandora that she was in the earlier comics. I see her interact with Sarah and Tedd and it seems like they are bringing her back to stability but she had to have come partway there by herself and I just don't get when or how that happened. It's like the really harsh side of Pandora's madness got up and walked away after Sister 2. This is why I toy with the idea that this is exactly what happened. And that toxic piece of Pandora is calling itself "Voltaire". I don't know how much behind the idea I even am. I'm not sure it works 100% with existing continuity. That's why I just toy with it.

...And she literally tore into Magus for choosing not to make Verres kill Abraham. I can agree with your analysis of Pandora and still say "yeah it's villainy". Nothing has changed the nature of her actions. It's just she's not a villain. Not anymore anyway. That role has passed to Voltaire. Pandora's change smacks of retcon but I like this Pandora enough that I'll take it.

I'd rather Greg's achievement remain his own.

Could you expand on that? 'Cause I'm in the "yeah, it's villainy" camp...

You were quite clear. I didn't for a moment think these were American citizens fleeing to Canada. I did get the impression that these were people who had cam to the US illegally, lived in the US for some amount of time and then decided that they wanted to jump ship to Canada. The rub here is money as it often is. People are expansive and social programs are therefore expansive. Canada takes a dim view of people going north because they need to keep a budget, something the US could afford to put more emphasis on. Haiti on its best day is a dump. the US isn't. Canada isn't. I wouldn't blame the haitian refugees for saying they're afraid to go back when they just don't want to go back.

Does it matter if they got better?

The promise that Pandora holds out to Tedd is as a substitute mother figure. Rare's the parents that can be to their child all the things that child needs. Children will instinctively find the pieces they are missing. Ed Verres tries his best and generally does a decent job of parenting, but he has some glaring shortcomings that Pandora doesn't have. The promise Tedd holds out to Pandora is like what Sarah does only moreso. Pandora wants to be important to someone. She wants to matter. She can matter to Tedd and Sarah. Tedd holds out something akin to the simple mother-child connection she had with Raven when he was young, which in turn was the only salve she had for having lost Blaike.

Agreed. She is getting a carp-ton of goodness out of this. I am a little envious. I say Pandora is getting more not to minimize Tedd but highlight Pandora. While there's still a huge hole in Tedd's heart where mom ought to be, Tedd is in a much better place than where she was even a few years ago. Not saying that a good peer group and a girlfriend fixes everything but it helps. On the other hand, I'd bet money Pandora has never gotten over Blaike's death. She is self-isolated, alone nearly all of the time, and relations with the son she can't bear to leave are pretty strained. Life has been bleak and lonely for Pandora for longer than Tedd's been alive, probably longer than Ed Verres has been alive, and maybe longer than the United Sates has been around.

Not at all. The way I heard it Ug was always happy to have someone join his club....

Seen by that light Ug was an intellectual giant as well as a physical one...

They'd gotten it all wrong. One first learns self-defense from fresh fruit before graduating to pointed sticks.