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Welcome! 03/05/2016
Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change. If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away. I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
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The Old Hack
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Content count
5,593 -
Joined
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Last visited
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Days Won
356
Everything posted by The Old Hack
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Pffft. Losers. We have our eyes set on stealing Tyrfing from the SCA.
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WHAT DO YOU MEAN THIS IS NOT CALM! I'LL SHOW YOU HOW CALM I AM GOLDARNIT! LET'S GO STEAL THOSE CODES FOR WAREHOUSE 13 AND OPEN WIDE THE GATES OF PHLEGETHON!
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If that's so, I assume you can't possibly explain this big laser target someone has been painting on my apartment for the past 24 hours.
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The Moderator: And we are done. ~tOH.
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Allow me to be more direct since my last post apparently did not serve the purpose. Drop the subject, please. Or I will be forced to don my moderator hat and lock the thread. That is all.
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Bollocking rape culture.
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Stop right there. Please. It is either informed consent or it isn't. Maybe you want to defend Nioi. I get that. But if your method of doing that is to attempt to twist 'nonconsensual' into 'but she really wanted it and it was good for her', I can get that at any trial where a sleazy lawyer is defending a rapist. It makes me feel just as sick there. I am not saying that Nioi is evil or that EGS is a bad comic. I am saying that Nioi screwed badly up, good intentions or no. And I am saying that that entire storyline is problematical because the absence of consent is never taken up again. It is perfectly all right to like a story or movie or other kind of artistic work even if it is problematic. But if you do not acknowledge that there is a problem and consider that it could have been done better, you are effectively choosing to turn a blind eye to the problem -- and doing that can be habit forming. Once you get into the habit of justifying lack of consent it can carry over into real life. Conversely, if you do confront the problem, you become better at recognising it when you encounter it elsewhere. This is my last word on this topic. If you still do not agree, fine. Just do me the courtesy of not making any further attempts to convince me that it was Ellen's own fault for wearing those clothes. I find it sickening and repulsive.
- 65 replies
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- alsoelliotandellen
- sirleck
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...Scotty. Please read what you just wrote. Are you seriously implying that it is proper to simply assume consent and then go ahead and radically alter someone's mind? Do you really mean that this may serve in place of informed consent? This is starting to sound like a sexual predator's excuses in court. "I thought she looked like she wanted it, so I went ahead." ...we do not even know if Pandora did mark Dex. Voltaire stated as much that the entire Dex plan was his. He was merely trying to frame Pandora at first, then gave it up in favour of his new plan. And what would have prevented Voltaire from marking Dex on his own if Pandora had not marked him? Nothing at all. You are really reaching by attempting to give Pandora the full blame for something Voltaire instigated and which he could readily have accomplished even if she had done nothing at all. I suggest you stop digging, Scotty. The ethical hole you are in is already quite deep enough.
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And how in the world does that turn Ellen's response into informed consent, or indeed any kind of consent at all?
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As mentioned, she didn't even agree. She said, "It sounds good, but --" and then got interrupted by Nioi mind warping her. As consent goes, that's pretty lacking.
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In fact she didn't. She said "It sounds good, but --" and then Nioi interrupted her and did it. That is not consent in my book. Let's say someone offers you a used car and lists all its good qualities. You reply, "It sounds good, but --" and they reply, "Great!", take ten thousand dollars of your money, toss you the car keys and leave. And you weren't even sure you needed a car. Is this consent? I am certain it could somehow be construed in that way though I am having some trouble seeing it. My immediate reaction is that if I could pick between either having a magical power implanted in me that I did not have to use or forcibly having eighteen years of experience from an alternate self of mine inserted in my mind that I would not thenceforth be able to tell apart from my own experiences I would probably prefer the former.
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Have they? So far they have not done any visible harm. That is not quite the same thing. You will forgive me for being suspicious of this as just because the story shows no sign of harm does not mean it can not be harmful. An example: many works of fiction try to romanticise abusive relationships and give them happy endings. This is not precisely helpful in real life. She need not be present for consequences to occur. Example: when Ellen related her experiences, one or more of the characters might have voiced suspicions or misgivings. That would count as a consequence even if they never meet her again. That is another part of the problem. Nioi based this on suppositions and observations that led her to conclusions she only thought probably fit. Let us say that someone falls ill with the flu. A well-intentioned healer gives them small doses of lead and mercury. The person recovers, so obviously the 'cure' worked; from this the healer decides that lead and mercury have healing properties. See above. Nioi was not sure what she was doing. Now imagine that a similar treatment of another patient resulted in them being unwittingly treated to years of abuse that their dimensional twin experienced. They get 'cured' of the 'soul issue' which is only a hypothesis of Nioi's but also afflicted with all the consequences of that abuse, including possible PTSD or similar forms of trauma. Good work. More or less exactly that. Google it. Doctors used arsenic and mercury as 'medicines' and let out blood of sick patients. One US president who was the victim of an assassination attempt was given a blood transfusion where the blood came from a lamb. (Obviously, the poor man died.) In short, doctors operating from untrustworthy ideas and misunderstood observations. If you were very very lucky, this might include some actual empirically tested evidence like Dr. Semmelweiss learning from much-despised midwives that it is actually a good idea to wash your hands before you attempt to deliver a baby. (He was laughed out by his fellow doctors, of course. What do women know of giving birth?)
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That is what makes it problematic. If Nioi is supposed to be a good character, she stepped way out of line. The problem isn't what she did, it was that she was never called out for it and that you never saw any in-story consequences. Ellen did not struggle with her new memories, she simply accepted them. So did everybody else when she told them. This is frankly rather chilling to me. What is especially chilling is that Nioi acted on the basis of intuition she believed fitted the observed events. She had nothing solid whatsoever to work with. Her mental intervention had all the credibility of heroic medicine and for all we know it was about as effective.
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The former. See here and here. I love Dan and his work, but some of it -- especially the earlier parts -- could get problematic. This is a prime example.
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Still another way of putting it is that she flooded Ellen with an entire lifetime of memories without her informed consent, which however well intentioned can still only be classified as a violation of her mind and spirit.
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- alsoelliotandellen
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I am in @hkmaly's camp here. I have never had much faith in Nioi's tale. I can't explain exactly why, it just rubs me the wrong way. I fully believe that she had good intentions but so did pre-Galen doctors who bled their patients and attached leeches to them. And her 'diagnosis' had a wee bit too much of 'I think' and 'supposes' and 'seems to work' in it.
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Tell me about it. I once read a headline that proclaimed that a cop had "illegally forced prostitute to have sex." For some reason, the first track my brain went down was a shocked, "Wait, so if he had followed proper procedure, he could have legally forced her to have sex?" Thankfully it was just a very clumsily phrased headline.
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- weight (j/k)
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*enters Dread Portal* *arrives to see sign erected* Sign reads: THE STARS ARE NOT QUITE RIGHT. PLEASE RETURN IN FIVE CENTURIES.
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- alsoelliotandellen
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Good! Hopefully this will work out, and good luck!
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If you saw the end of the video, you can work out why. The entire cinema is always utter chaos after every single jump scare.
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Yes it was. He was clearly there to phill gas tanks.
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- alsoelliotandellen
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Ohmigod.
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Yeah, this is exactly what I was worried about. This is going to get problematic.
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- alsoelliotandellen
- sirleck
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One can only be grateful that he did not decide to practice skeet shooting instead. It's an idea. I may do it. It wouldn't even make my top fifty list. I can't offhand decide which of my many, many foolish deeds would rate as the top ranking one. One possible candidate may have been the time where we had an election during one of the coldest winters I have ever experienced. I struggled down to the voting office through icy winds and snowfall so thick that I could barely see ten yards ahead. When I arrived, it was only to learn that I had shown a day early. I returned home in a state of great annoyance with myself. It did not help that the next day was much nicer, no wind or snow and the sun was out. Also the roads and sidewalks had been cleared. It was easy going reaching the voting office and I cursed my foolishness every step of the way.
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Obviously, the one that just had a human sitting in it moments before and which the human is just returning to a few moments later carrying a drink or whatever else that motivated said human to leave and then return in the foolish belief that this royal seat still belonged to them. At least, this is my experience. Leave your seat for some brief errand and when you return to it, it will all too often be full of cat.
