Discussion of Military, real or fictional

[The Old Hack 2,474]

56 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Their political system was crap, even by their own standards, but you've got to admire their ability to pull a victory out of their collective asses.

To be fair it was a commonly held attitude that Russia won in spite of Stalin, not because of him.

[Darth Fluffy 323]

27 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

To be fair it was a commonly held attitude that Russia won in spite of Stalin, not because of him.

I am not well versed on Stalin's accomplishments, if any. I gather that he was initially an actual functionary, but it seems from far away that the Soviet environment was an opportunistic enclave for the breeding of the worst elements of human nature as it relates to that sort of society. Stalin was one extreme result.

Georgy Zhukov seems to be the antithesis. His leadership appears to me to have been a key component in Soviet success in WW II. I don't know how he survived returning to the Soviet Union, he appears to be the kind of person Stalin viewed as a threat, and there were significant events to accuse him of some bullshit anti-revolutionary activity. He an Eisenhower had a genuine friendship. Ike even sent him a fly rod after the war as a gift, which should have been damning in the Soviet system.

Interestingly, there was a US soldier who was captured and managed to escape several times. In one of his later escapades, he escaped east and ran into and joined the Soviet forces (not official, just fought along side them.) Zhukov heard of this, interviewed the man, and arranged for him to return to his own people. (He had been declared dead, which lead to more fun and games.)

Defector Viktor Belenko talks about the end result at length in his book, MiG Pilot. After working through the shock of how different life in the west is vs what he was used to (had difficulty grasping that grocery stores were real, not just set up to lie to him about conditions; they had goods available, and no lines to buy them) he relates that everything the Soviets ostensibly strove for was available in the West. He had similar issues with a visit to a US naval vessel. The quarters were too nice to be real.

There seems to have been a lot of paranoia steeped into the fabric of the Soviet Union, perhaps not undeservedly, but it seems to have hamstrung them.

[The Old Hack 2,474]

8 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Georgy Zhukov seems to be the antithesis. His leadership appears to me to have been a key component in Soviet success in WW II. I don't know how he survived returning to the Soviet Union, he appears to be the kind of person Stalin viewed as a threat, and there were significant events to accuse him of some bullshit anti-revolutionary activity. He an Eisenhower had a genuine friendship. Ike even sent him a fly rod after the war as a gift, which should have been damning in the Soviet system.

Possibly it was because Stalin against all odds had somehow grasped that purging his best military personnel was not the road to victory. Executing Tukachevsky on trumped-up charges may have been the single most boneheaded move Stalin ever did.

[Darth Fluffy 323]

On 7/22/2024 at 11:30 PM, The Old Hack said:

Possibly it was because Stalin against all odds had somehow grasped that purging his best military personnel was not the road to victory. Executing Tukachevsky on trumped-up charges may have been the single most boneheaded move Stalin ever did.

The though has occurred to me that perhaps Stalin was genuinely afraid of Zhukov, who was widely known, popular, and had a vast army to back him up. <shrug>

[The Old Hack 2,474]

5 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

The though has occurred to me that perhaps Stalin was genuinely afraid of Zhukov, who was widely known, popular, and had a vast army to back him up. <shrug>

There was at least one occasion where Stalin had intended to have Zhukov executed. This was during the initial moments of Barbarossa. Stalin was absolutely panicking and Zhukov lost his temper and told him to either pull himself together or get out of the way. A vast silence filled the room, Stalin stared at Zhukov in shock and then vanished into his office and got falling down drunk. Zhukov shrugged and went to work.

Stalin didn't emerge for something like two days. When he finally did and ran into Zhukov, he stared at him in bafflement. "Why haven't you been shot?" he demanded. Zhukov shrugged and told him, "No-one was ordered to, I suppose." Stalin stared at him for another moment, then shrugged and went on, apparently dismissing the matter from his mind.

He got so drunk that he forgot to order people shot. That must have been a serious binge.

[Darth Fluffy 323]

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

There was at least one occasion where Stalin had intended to have Zhukov executed. This was during the initial moments of Barbarossa. Stalin was absolutely panicking and Zhukov lost his temper and told him to either pull himself together or get out of the way. A vast silence filled the room, Stalin stared at Zhukov in shock and then vanished into his office and got falling down drunk. Zhukov shrugged and went to work.

Stalin didn't emerge for something like two days. When he finally did and ran into Zhukov, he stared at him in bafflement. "Why haven't you been shot?" he demanded. Zhukov shrugged and told him, "No-one was ordered to, I suppose." Stalin stared at him for another moment, then shrugged and went on, apparently dismissing the matter from his mind.

He got so drunk that he forgot to order people shot. That must have been a serious binge.

I never heard that. It makes sense. Zhukov had courage and got lucky.

Stalin was also lucky that he got drunk and failed to order the execution; he needed Zhukov.

[mlooney 3,525]

We now have to specify "1st Battle of Kursk" or "Battle of Kursk (1943)".

[mlooney 3,525]

Drones as Air Defense weapons. Had to happen sooner or later. Of course right now all they are gonna it is rotary wing A/C but it's still impressive. https://kyivindependent.com/ukrainian-fpv-drones-allegedly-hits-russian-helicopter/?mc_cid=5ac8aa005b

[Darth Fluffy 323]

Saw a nice quote. "Russia has the second strongest military in the Ukraine. Now they also have the second strongest military in Russia."

[mlooney 3,525]

[mlooney 3,525]

The US air force is using piloted micro jets to simulate drones and cruise missile. Which make sense, you really don't want real unmanned aircraft in public airspace. https://www.twz.com/air/tiny-jets-masquerading-as-cruise-missiles-featured-in-michigan-airpower-exercise

[Darth Fluffy 323]

1 hour ago, mlooney said:

The US air force is using piloted micro jets to simulate drones and cruise missile. Which make sense, you really don't want real unmanned aircraft in public airspace. https://www.twz.com/air/tiny-jets-masquerading-as-cruise-missiles-featured-in-michigan-airpower-exercise

Clown jets. Several pilots climb out after each other.

[The Old Hack 2,474]

A brief discussion of the element of surprise: it is very important to ensure that it will belong to you and not the enemy. For example, the current situation in Kursk is largely due to Putin being caught by surprise by the fact that if you invade an enemy, they might sometime feel inclined to invade you back.

[mlooney 3,525]

Of course we now have to specify "1st battle of Kursk" or "2nd battle of Kursk".  We could give the year 1943 or 2024 but I like the 1st/2nd construct better.

[The Old Hack 2,474]

11 hours ago, mlooney said:

Of course we now have to specify "1st battle of Kursk" or "2nd battle of Kursk".  We could give the year 1943 or 2024 but I like the 1st/2nd construct better.

So do I!

[mlooney 3,525]

https://mil.in.ua/uk/news/na-kurshhyni-zsu-zahopyly-reb-volnorez-z-dokumentatsiyeyu/

I used Chrome Translate. High lights

============
In the Kursk region, the Ukrainian military captured the Russian electronic warfare complex "Volnorez" with documentation.

Ukrainian journalist Yuriy Butusov, who published a video from the WER, said that the complex was found in the factory packaging.

It became known about the appearance of these systems in the Russian troops last fall.

It creates a dome around the object, which should protect the equipment from drones.

The complex is mainly installed on Russian tanks.

It is designed specifically to combat FPV drones. The released footage shows that the new WB works in the following ranges:

390 — 510 MHz
750 — 1050MHz

[The Old Hack 2,474]

So I saw a video discussing whether you could get a decent technical out of a Cybertruck. After subduing an impulse to make jokes about sloped front armour I watched the video and it was surprisingly informative. The videomaker didn't seem to be particularly either pro- or anti-Musk and discussed the issues fairly. He arrived at the conclusion that you could probably use it as one but that it wasn't particularly well suited for it (sloped front armour notwithstanding (argh, I gave in to the impulse!)).

But it did give me a funny idea. Which vehicles would people here think would make particularly funny/good/unusual technicals? How would you go about turning your own car into a technical? What weapons would you mount on it? Imagine that you have access to the most common weaponry of a modern army and the necessary tools to add it to your technical. And come to think of it, isn't a James Bond car just a really souped up and extra expensive technical?

(I myself would like to modify either a Ford T or a Volkswagen Beetle. Not because I think they would be very good at it, just for the humour value.)

[Darth Fluffy 323]

The Ford Model T had a really crappy engine, good for its day perhaps, but nothing you'd want to use today. It had no actual oil pump, it had a scoop-like projection that would splash oil on the rest of the engine. I doubt it would survive today's highway speeds.

A beetle would be at least functional. Indeed in WW II, a VW variant known as the Kübelwagen was used by the Wehrmacht. I do not know if any were armed, but I would guess yes, it would have been easy to do. There was a similarly styled VW vehicle marketed to the public as The Thing in the US, other names elsewhere. They also made a 4WD Beetle known as the Kommandeurswagen, an amphibious variant known as the Schwimmwagen which looks like it would be a blast to drive (although, 6 MPH/10 KPH in the water, and forward only), and the Schlepperfahrzeug, modified for towing artillery. (To shlep is Yiddish for carry, chore implied; much Yiddish is derived from German, so this makes sense.)

 

 

[mlooney 3,525]

How about a Reliant Robin?

https://www.throttlextreme.com/meet-armed-reliant-rugged-robin-three-wheeler-caterpillar-tracks/

[mlooney 3,525]

4 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

A beetle would be at least functional. Indeed in WW II, a VW variant known as the Kübelwagen was used by the Wehrmacht. I do not know if any were armed, but I would guess yes, it would have been easy to do.

7.92mm Machine gun only

[mlooney 3,525]

And of course the Vespa scooter with a recoilless rifle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespa_150_TAP

[Darth Fluffy 323]

5 minutes ago, mlooney said:

7.92mm Machine gun only

That would have been my guess, it's not a sturdy platform. About what a jeep of that era would carry, then downgrade a bit.

 

3 minutes ago, mlooney said:

And of course the Vespa scooter with a recoilless rifle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespa_150_TAP

That would be a good punchline for a joke.

Not a WW II vehicle.

I never thought of Vespas as off road vehicles, who knew? It looks like it could work. It also looks like something Wiley Coyote dreamed up.

[mlooney 3,525]

A subject that some times makes me grit my teeth.

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-battleships-warships-terms/

[ijuin 586]

I have always understood that a Warship is any ship designed for combat (possibly excluding vessels that are considered to be too small to qualify as “ships”, such as patrol boats and torpedo boats). A Battleship is a category of Warship characterized by carrying the heaviest armor and anti-ship weapons that are considered practical at the time (usually artillery, but also torpedoes and, post-WWII, missiles). A subcategory of Battleships, known as Dreadnoughts, after the first of their type, are known for foregoing a secondary battery of medium-sized artillery in favor of carrying as many of the largest size of artillery as possible (often 8-12 guns of 12 inch caliber or more), and most Battleships from WWI onward are of the Dreadnought type.

Battleships are considered obsolete for two reasons. First, missiles and Carrier-based aircraft have much greater range than artillery, which means that most nations have given up on using naval artillery larger than 155 mm/6 inch caliber. Second, torpedoes and missiles have become destructive enough that no currently available armor can protect against them without being so heavy as to greatly impair mobility, which has led to the abandonment of armor above that needed to resist the aforementioned 155 mm artillery. Thus, ships that can avoid being hit via countermeasures, anti-aircraft/antimissile/anti-torpedo defenses, or mobility, are favored instead, which is why the US Navy fields the Ticonderoga class missile cruisers instead of battleships.

[Darth Fluffy 323]

11 minutes ago, ijuin said:

I have always understood that a Warship is any ship designed for combat (possibly excluding vessels that are considered to be too small to qualify as “ships”, such as patrol boats and torpedo boats). A Battleship is a category of Warship characterized by carrying the heaviest armor and anti-ship weapons that are considered practical at the time (usually artillery, but also torpedoes and, post-WWII, missiles). A subcategory of Battleships, known as Dreadnoughts, after the first of their type, are known for foregoing a secondary battery of medium-sized artillery in favor of carrying as many of the largest size of artillery as possible (often 8-12 guns of 12 inch caliber or more), and most Battleships from WWI onward are of the Dreadnought type.

Battleships are considered obsolete for two reasons. First, missiles and Carrier-based aircraft have much greater range than artillery, which means that most nations have given up on using naval artillery larger than 155 mm/6 inch caliber. Second, torpedoes and missiles have become destructive enough that no currently available armor can protect against them without being so heavy as to greatly impair mobility, which has led to the abandonment of armor above that needed to resist the aforementioned 155 mm artillery. Thus, ships that can avoid being hit via countermeasures, anti-aircraft/antimissile/anti-torpedo defenses, or mobility, are favored instead, which is why the US Navy fields the Ticonderoga class missile cruisers instead of battleships.

There is also 'graceful degradation' of capability. If you put all of your eggs in one battleship, and it is sunk, you are S.O.L.