Political Discussion Thread (READ FIRST POST)

[The Old Hack 2,448]

6 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Trump's own cognitive impairment caused him to publicly admit to conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election.

I think that kicks the legs out from under any previous defense, he should actually be going to prison soon, and be disqualified from running again.

If there had been even mild amounts of common sense in this situation, his political career should have ended back in 2016 when he publicly asked Russia to interfere in the election. But even then most Republicans felt it was a just great idea to ask a totalitarian dictatorship to sabotage US democracy in order to get that absurd strutting posturer installed behind the Resolute Desk.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

6 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I have not heard that. Seems off to me. Biden is a centrist. His policies are not extreme. Roosevelt accomplished some similar infrastructure things, but in his case, they were more of a means to and end, to employ masses of people. While his innovative policies seem tame today, they were controversial at the time. 

Biden's policies are extreme in the sense that they are actually accomplishing something. The current crop of Republicans are anti-accomplishment and as such they do everything they can to sabotage them.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

If there had been even mild amounts of common sense in this situation, his political career should have ended back in 2016 when he publicly asked Russia to interfere in the election. But even then most Republicans felt it was a just great idea to ask a totalitarian dictatorship to sabotage US democracy in order to get that absurd strutting posturer installed behind the Resolute Desk.

You're not wrong. I am at this point hoping for some justice to prevail, and I'm seeing Dumpster Fire's hubris, hence lack of mouth control, to be a step in the right direction. The process is going too slowly in my opinion, but I'm glad those involved have not yet given up holding this idiot accountable.

 

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

Biden's policies are extreme in the sense that they are actually accomplishing something. The current crop of Republicans are anti-accomplishment and as such they do everything they can to sabotage them.

Sadly, you're not wrong. Mitch McConnell is the cheerleader for this, though it has grown beyond him and will likely outlast his tenure. Still, I hate to wish him ill, but I won't be sad to see him go, however that happens. Interest in obstruction might begin tapering off. 

 

Clearly, we have some insane $#!% going on, and it's not just here. Modi apparently had a Sikh separatist assassinated in Canada. Iran is going nuts against their women (that will turn out well). And many more - it's going to get worse before it gets better.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

Calvin, the future politician

[Darth Fluffy 302]

Boom!

[The Old Hack 2,448]

Come on. It was only ATTEMPTED overthrow of the Republic. Why shouldn't he get another shot at it?

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

 

General Zod et al were sent to the Phantom Zone for attempted insurrection. If that's good enough for Marlon Brando . . . .

 

[The Old Hack 2,448]

Senator Menendez has refused to resign his position in spite of being federally indicted. I want to go on the record as stating that if he will not resign willingly, he must be compelled to. "The laws do not apply to me" is not a good excuse for leaving that kind of person in power.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

Hits home

[The Old Hack 2,448]

46 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Hits home

I've tried being homeless. It just isn't as much fun as they say it is.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

10 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

I've tried being homeless. It just isn't as much fun as they say it is.

I have been very briefly homeless, for a few days, in a long ago part of my life. I agree, it was not fun.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

It was not that big a deal. I was in a bad situation, needed to leave, had to wait until my next pay check to get a room. It was summer, and I had enough money for a few light meals and travel to work. No where to sleep was an issue.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

Stephan Pastis seems to be increasingly concerned about politics, or at least more openly.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

There is two and a half days left before the US government will go into shutdown and the majority party of the House feels it is more important to discuss the impeachment of President Biden -- for which they themselves admit that they have no evidence.

Someone tell me again that they haven't gone off the deep end.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

There is two and a half days left before the US government will go into shutdown and the majority party of the House feels it is more important to discuss the impeachment of President Biden -- for which they themselves admit that they have no evidence.

Someone tell me again that they haven't gone off the deep end.

'Gone off the deep end' covers the current MAGA crop of the GOP. They are disconnected from reality, quite literally, intentionally.

Actual Republicans are now RINOs. No one with a shred of sanity has any worth in the current GOP, again, quite literally.

And how are they going to MAGA? By burning it down?

Of course they want to impeach Joe Biden. Didn't the Democrats want to impeach the Dumpster Fire? Tit for tat. Deserving it is irrelevant.

Joe Biden is objectively one of our better presidents. He's not great, but he is reliably a positive force, focused on things they should care about, infrastructure issues. He has a track record of working with the GOP, and scads of experience. Yes, he is old; so was Saint Ronny, and so is Mango Mayhem (Lock Him Up!). Yes, at times he is a bit clumsy, so was the Eagle Scout (Gerald Ford) and the Orange Idiot.

Give Joe points, at least he can still ride a bike. Can The Orangutan do that? (He belongs in a cage.)

We play this game regularly in the US, playing chicken with funding the government; and this year is will likely be worse than many. The GOP has a vested interest in screwing things up, because it always reflects on the incumbent, in spite of their intransigence. They also want to cut funding for some of his programs, like supporting Ukraine.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

The Wise Ass is not wrong.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 minute ago, Darth Fluffy said:

The Wise Ass is not wrong.

These tests are typically used to raise artificial barriers against allowing immigrants to become citizens. Here in Denmark the Danish People's Party helped to institute a test so stringent that only about a third of all native born Danes could pass it.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

4 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

These tests are typically used to raise artificial barriers against allowing immigrants to become citizens. Here in Denmark the Danish People's Party helped to institute a test so stringent that only about a third of all native born Danes could pass it.

I don't doubt that. I don't think many of the voters in the US could pass the citizen test. My understanding is it is fair, but comprehensive, and covers a lot of ground.

And tests have been abused here as well, used to keep dark skinned folks from exercising their rights as citizens.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

10 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I don't doubt that. I don't think many of the voters in the US could pass the citizen test.

On the plus side I am a child of such immigrants to Denmark, and I actually did manage to pass the test. (I was curious so I tried it.)

Maybe that is why the Danish People's Party are so scared of people like me. They know I am a better Dane than them just a generation or two after arriving here.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

Discussion moved here from military thread:

Why do you think the German government

can give permission to immigrate into Sweden? Getting out of Germany probably would have been tricky, but to then legally be in Sweden they'd need approval of Sweden's government, not Germany's.

My apologies. I allowed anger to goad me into sarcasm and lack of clarity. Two strikes against me; I will try to avoid a third. I am sorry.

I was talking about Denmark in early October, 1943. My family was in hiding, having only a few hours before learned that the Nazis were moving en masse to arrest all Danish Jews and move them to internment camps in Germany or eastern Europe. My grandfather was at the time quite ill and unable to reliably make major decisions and my grandmother decided that the family had to flee to Sweden. After barely dodging Nazi patrols on the eastern coast of Zealand they managed to cross the Sound in a leaky rowboat that almost sank before making it.

And it can be gotten after the fact - go there,

promptly notify local authorities that you're there and why.

And here, unfortunately, we arrive at the crux of the matter. My grandmother had no way of knowing whether the Swedes would actually welcome her family or not. She was caught in the refugee's dilemma: flee from horrible danger to an uncertain future. No, it would be the decisions of Swedish politicians and officials whether her family would be welcomed as deserving refugees or arrested and rejected as 'illegal immigrants.' As already mentioned there was a sizable faction in Sweden that wanted to refuse Jews admittance to the country whether for reasons financial or out of fear of offending the Nazis. My grandmother could have done everything right and still faced expulsion on arrival.

The difference between a refugee and an illegal immigrant is out of the hands of the people fleeing. They cannot be certain of their welcome or absence thereof. The only surety they have is that their home is no longer safe or even survivable in some cases. They then leave everything they know behind bringing only what they can carry. They go elsewhere in the hopes that they will find better in the end. That these hopes are all too often dashed is hardly anything to blame them for.

Using such language as 'illegal immigrants' and them being 'rewarded' for a 'crime' they had no idea they could even be committing is loaded language, and to be frank, it made me lose my temper. It is common propaganda to dehumanize these people as 'being too lazy to work' and also somehow 'coming here to steal our jobs' (I am not sure how these two work together. The logic escapes me, I fear.) Especially since what distinguishes the 'illegal immigrant' from the refugee is an all too often purely arbitrary distinction applied by politicians based on whether they come from 'shithole countries' or are Jewish or of the wrong skin colour/religion.

I feel that naming someone 'an illegal immigrant' and then punish them for having this definition applied to them might not be very just.

[ijuin 572]

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

The difference between a refugee and an illegal immigrant is out of the hands of the people fleeing.

The distinction between “legal” and “illegal” in many countries mostly boils down to whatever a majority of the national legislature can be persuaded to vote to permit. Get 51% of the legislators to vote for it (or sometimes a supermajority is required), and you can end up with anything that does not blatantly contradict the country’s Constitution.

Anyway, in lighter topics, what is the difference between Donald Trump and Donald Duck?

One is an animated character best known for frequently losing his temper on screen, and the other is a cartoon duck.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

51 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

The difference between a refugee and an illegal immigrant is out of the hands of the people fleeing. They cannot be certain of their welcome or absence thereof. The only surety they have is that their home is no longer safe or even survivable in some cases. They then leave everything they know behind bringing only what they can carry. They go elsewhere in the hopes that they will find better in the end. That these hopes are all too often dashed is hardly anything to blame them for.

Using such language as 'illegal immigrants' and them being 'rewarded' for a 'crime' they had no idea they could even be committing is loaded language, and to be frank, it made me lose my temper. It is common propaganda to dehumanize these people as 'being too lazy to work' and also somehow 'coming here to steal our jobs' (I am not sure how these two work together. The logic escapes me, I fear.) Especially since what distinguishes the 'illegal immigrant' from the refugee is an all too often purely arbitrary distinction applied by politicians based on whether they come from 'shithole countries' or are Jewish or of the wrong skin colour/religion.

I feel that naming someone 'an illegal immigrant' and then punish them for having this definition applied to them might not be very just.

While I agree overall, not all immigrants, illegal or otherwise, are refugees. In the US, thinking about immigrants is biased by an awareness of immigrants, particularly Mexican, coming into the US undocumented to work, because the pay is much better than in Mexico. A shallow but pervasive point of view is that all immigrants, particularly Hispanic, are this; to the point that the longest term European dwellers in the US Southwest are in some sense perceived as this, 'We were here before you were' not withstanding. (Don't get me started on how Native Americans are treated.)

There is also some fear of rare bad actors from belligerent nations sneaking in to do harm. The rare sneaking in has actually happened, the notable cases of terrorism, such as 9/11, were here legally.

There are legitimate concerns about a reasonable level off assimilation, perhaps often taken too far. If I understand correctly, in Europe, teen Islamic refuge offspring sometimes molest and rape host country girls who in their mind 'dress like sluts'. If you are going to be a refuge, it seems that being a good guest and not harming your host would be in order, no?

Oddly, Jews seem to catch much of the harm throughout history, in spite of for the most part being good citizens. In the WWII era, finding a place to flee to that would accept Jews was problematic. Many died waiting for approval to immigrate. I recall that the US turned away a ship full.

 

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

And here, unfortunately, we arrive at the crux of the matter. My grandmother had no way of knowing whether the Swedes would actually welcome her family or not. She was caught in the refugee's dilemma: flee from horrible danger to an uncertain future. No, it would be the decisions of Swedish politicians and officials whether her family would be welcomed as deserving refugees or arrested and rejected as 'illegal immigrants.' As already mentioned there was a sizable faction in Sweden that wanted to refuse Jews admittance to the country whether for reasons financial or out of fear of offending the Nazis. My grandmother could have done everything right and still faced expulsion on arrival.

By the Darwin criteria, she made the right decision. You are here to discuss it. Doing everything by the book, you might not be. I think there is much to be said for this as the ultimate arbiter.

 

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

The difference between a refugee and an illegal immigrant is out of the hands of the people fleeing. They cannot be certain of their welcome or absence thereof. The only surety they have is that their home is no longer safe or even survivable in some cases. They then leave everything they know behind bringing only what they can carry. They go elsewhere in the hopes that they will find better in the end. That these hopes are all too often dashed is hardly anything to blame them for.

Using such language as 'illegal immigrants' and them being 'rewarded' for a 'crime' they had no idea they could even be committing is loaded language, and to be frank, it made me lose my temper. It is common propaganda to dehumanize these people as 'being too lazy to work' and also somehow 'coming here to steal our jobs' (I am not sure how these two work together. The logic escapes me, I fear.) Especially since what distinguishes the 'illegal immigrant' from the refugee is an all too often purely arbitrary distinction applied by politicians based on whether they come from 'shithole countries' or are Jewish or of the wrong skin colour/religion.

I feel that naming someone 'an illegal immigrant' and then punish them for having this definition applied to them might not be very just.

Back to this; language can be weaponized, and often is, especially if you don't want people to think about a matter clearly.

I wouldn't say the people in Sweden that didn't want Jews to immigrate were exactly wrong; both concerns were valid (not saying correct). It comes down to what matters; if you value lives, you look past those issues. Your grandmother may have done everyone a favor by taking it out of their hands. Plausible deniability and your family was still safe. Well, more or less safe.

Did you know that war crimes during WWII are still being prosecuted? In the remaining cases, it is often a race to prosecute before the elderly accused passes away.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

22 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

There are legitimate concerns about a reasonable level off assimilation, perhaps often taken too far. If I understand correctly, in Europe, teen Islamic refuge offspring sometimes molest and rape host country girls who in their mind 'dress like sluts'.

Oh yeah, like Brock Turner.

Oh wait, he was a solid American Christian white boy of a good family. My bad, no reason to mention HIM. I mean if we started to consider people like him worthy of note they might never be able to be appointed to the Supreme Court.

22 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

If you are going to be a refuge, it seems that being a good guest and not harming your host would be in order, no?

Obviously, but it also depends at least a little on the hosts treating their guests properly. I daresay stuffing them into ghettos, treating them like trash and not giving them decent schooling might be factors that could aggravate teenagers and make them more likely to act out even to the point of serious crimes.

Once while I was riding a bus I witnessed an immigrant innocently approach two Danish girls who told him off. He then left them alone. They, on the other hand, spent the next ten minutes swearing at him, cursing him and insulting him. I tried to soothe him down but finally he had had enough and attacked them. I and another passenger tried to intervene but at that point he broke off and threw a beer bottle at them and fled. I know exactly what the headlines would have read if the tabloids had gotten hold of that one. "DRUNKEN <slur> ATTACKS DANISH GIRLS WITHOUT PROVOCATION."

As an aside, I told the driver of the bus to call the police (this was pre cell phone days) but he was himself an immigrant and he was afraid to call the cops. I told him that I would take responsibility for the situation and speak to the cops and then he finally called them. That whole experience spoke volumes of what a minefield immigrants have to navigate here in happy little Denmark.

Yeah, you need to show good manners when you are a guest, but it really makes it a lot easier to behave nicely if your host doesn't treat you like trash.

22 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

By the Darwin criteria, she made the right decision. You are here to discuss it. Doing everything by the book, you might not be. I think there is much to be said for this as the ultimate arbiter.

With all due respect to laws and customs, I am a lot less motivated to follow them if in doing so I am likely to become a Darwinian example.

22 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I wouldn't say the people in Sweden that didn't want Jews to immigrate were exactly wrong; both concerns were valid (not saying correct)

Oh, that was never in question as far as I am concerned. All I was saying was that if they had had their way my family would shortly after had been en route to a fun little holiday camp and I myself would never have been born.

22 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Back to this; language can be weaponized, and often is, especially if you don't want people to think about a matter clearly.

Which was my whole point.

22 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Did you know that war crimes during WWII are still being prosecuted? In the remaining cases, it is often a race to prosecute before the elderly accused passes away.

Meh, I am unworried. The people doing that are in no risk of being out of work. Still lots of genocidal fascists running around murdering queers Jews illegal immigrants whatever flavour of people they have been told not to like. Once WW2 is finally left so far behind that it is no longer practical to track down its offenders, there will be plenty of new material to work on.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

17 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Oh yeah, like Brock Turner.

Oh wait, he was a solid American Christian white boy of a good family. My bad, no reason to mention HIM. I mean if we started to consider people like him worthy of note they might never be able to be appointed to the Supreme Court.

The parallels of bad behaviors in the name of religion of any stripe are appalling. It's worse than it seems on the surface, because you can find similar examples of bad behavior even among religions thought of as peaceful and accommodating. Granted, sometimes there are historical animosities driving this. I would not want to be Islamic in India today.

So called Christianity in the US is downright scary; I see the religious right as a driver of the move toward Fascism. FWIW, I don't think Jesus approves.

It really is a mixed bag, though, and the negative elements are very vocal and visible.

 

36 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I daresay stuffing them into ghettos, treating them like trash and not giving them decent schooling might be factors that could aggravate teenagers and make them more likely to act out even to the point of serious crimes.

That pretty comprehensively sums up the plight of the Hmong refugees in the US since the end of the conflict in SE Asia. Not just them, of course.

This hits on a reality that there is an economic cost to harboring refugees. Some places are impoverished, and it is truly a burden. The US could afford to do more, but does not have the will to. Europe is in better shape than much of the world, and seems to be more accepting than what I'm seeing here.

I'll point out that this is what makes Mango Mayhem's response to immigration particularly callous (well, beyond the kids in cages thing), he effectively dumps the problem on Mexico, which while not exactly impoverished, is by no means as flush with resources as the US.

 

47 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Once while I was riding a bus I witnessed an immigrant innocently approach two Danish girls who told him off. He then left them alone. They, on the other hand, spent the next ten minutes swearing at him, cursing him and insulting him. I tried to soothe him down but finally he had had enough and attacked them. I and another passenger tried to intervene but at that point he broke off and threw a beer bottle at them and fled. I know exactly what the headlines would have read if the tabloids had gotten hold of that one. "DRUNKEN <slur> ATTACKS DANISH GIRLS WITHOUT PROVOCATION."

Yeah, I suspect everywhere else is bad, too, but I mostly see what happens in my back yard. And now, the Internet, which promised to spread knowledge, rapidly disseminates ignorance.

 

50 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

As an aside, I told the driver of the bus to call the police (this was pre cell phone days) but he was himself an immigrant and he was afraid to call the cops. I told him that I would take responsibility for the situation and speak to the cops and then he finally called them. That whole experience spoke volumes of what a minefield immigrants have to navigate here in happy little Denmark.

That is a thing here, too. Black families often avoid calling the police, because they expect a bad outcome. A woman will endure abuse, rather than having her husband shot. There is a sense of 'every dark person is a suspect'.

 

56 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Meh, I am unworried. The people doing that are in no risk of being out of work. Still lots of genocidal fascists running around murdering queers Jews illegal immigrants whatever flavour of people they have been told not to like. Once WW2 is finally left so far behind that it is no longer practical to track down its offenders, there will be plenty of new material to work on.

We are in an era where the by the book people, be it a religious or secular tome of ideology, are increasingly in charge, see their way as the only way, and have a willingness to enforce that way. Accommodating others is seen as weakness.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

Yet another name to hate - Mr. Potato Head (Tommy Tuberville) is blocking military promotions because 'abortion'. The impact is enormous (read the article) and is destabilizing our US military. Do you suppose owning other people's vajajas is worth this?