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Story Friday August 11, 2017

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Just now, Tom Sewell said:

Except that they reset improperly soon after this, quite possibly because of this. Still, a good theory as to their motivation. Whatever else, "kill all vampires" still seems to be their Prime Directive. 

The fact that they retained knowledge of Elliot through an improper reset suggests that they might have known a lot about the Magus situation as well.  I tend to think they were reset to bury the knowledge they had accumulated and they remembered just the one critical linchpin thing (Elliot), even if they had no context for it.

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1 hour ago, Tom Sewell said:

Whatever else, "kill all vampires" still seems to be their Prime Directive. 

Noted for possible game use.

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23 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

The fact that they retained knowledge of Elliot through an improper reset suggests that they might have known a lot about the Magus situation as well.  I tend to think they were reset to bury the knowledge they had accumulated and they remembered just the one critical linchpin thing (Elliot), even if they had no context for it.

Doesn't breaking immortal law result in a forced reset? Perhaps they broke it and as a result were forced to reset in a way that is extremely inconvenient for them.

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On 8/12/2017 at 2:58 PM, JainaEgo said:

Doesn't breaking immortal law result in a forced reset? Perhaps they broke it and as a result were forced to reset in a way that is extremely inconvenient for them.

Could be.  We don't know. 

WHAT they retained through an improper reset seems a clue to why they were reset to me, and what they retained was "keep a close eye on Elliot."  We know Elliot is at the heart of Magus' need for a new body, which is a part of some larger scheme of which we know little. And Voltaire wanted to use Eliot's death to scar Tedd on the way to his ultimate goal.  It strikes me that either would be cause enough to improperly reset a couple of Immortals if they started getting too close.  So why go looking for a reason?

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46 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Could be.  We don't know. 

WHAT they retained through an improper reset seems a clue to why they were reset to me, and what they retained was "keep a close eye on Elliot."  We know Elliot is at the heart of Magus' need for a new body, which is a part of some larger scheme of which we know little. And Voltaire wanted to use Eliot's death to scar Tedd on the way to his ultimate goal.  It strikes me that either would be cause enough to improperly reset a couple of Immortals if they started getting too close.  So why go looking for a reason?

It's possible that Helena and Demetrius were manipulated into breaking Immortal law. Like Nanase and Susan were bait to draw them away.

If, by chance, another Immortal got to the authorities in France first and did something to prevent them from being able to send agents to deal with the vampire, H&D might have felt forced to recruit Nanase and Susan. I dunno if that would be considered breaking Immortal law though, also Pandora showed that if an Immortal really believes that what they're doing isn't breaking Immortal law then they're not breaking it. So H&D would likely have knowingly broke Immortal law to be forced to reset because even if they might have lied to Susan and Nanase, that's not a reset-able offense, because Immortals can lie as Voltaire has shown.

There is another reason for an improper reset though, Jerry mentioned that if an Immortal interrupts the reset process, it could mess things up for them. Jerry also mentioned that in order to reset properly, he needed to gather all his knowledge and power back which meant unpowering the hammer artifact, so I imagine leaving the hammer artifact powered could have potentially caused an improper reset. If H&D were already in the process of dying when they suddenly learned of Nanase and Susan being in danger, interrupting that to go help them might explain why they disappeared after they lead them into battle. Alternatively, they might have sacrificed some of their power during their reset to prevent something from happening.

 

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3 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It's possible that Helena and Demetrius were manipulated into breaking Immortal law. Like Nanase and Susan were bait to draw them away.

If, by chance, another Immortal got to the authorities in France first and did something to prevent them from being able to send agents to deal with the vampire, H&D might have felt forced to recruit Nanase and Susan. I dunno if that would be considered breaking Immortal law though, also Pandora showed that if an Immortal really believes that what they're doing isn't breaking Immortal law then they're not breaking it. So H&D would likely have knowingly broke Immortal law to be forced to reset because even if they might have lied to Susan and Nanase, that's not a reset-able offense, because Immortals can lie as Voltaire has shown.

If H&D's previous lives had broken Immortal Law they would have reset immediately the moment they realized they crossed the line.  That's how Pandora tells us it works.  What they did with Nanase and Susan looks like textbook "Guide and Empower" stuff to me.  I have a hard time pulling a violation out of it.

8 minutes ago, Scotty said:

There is another reason for an improper reset though, Jerry mentioned that if an Immortal interrupts the reset process, it could mess things up for them. Jerry also mentioned that in order to reset properly, he needed to gather all his knowledge and power back which meant unpowering the hammer artifact, so I imagine leaving the hammer artifact powered could have potentially caused an improper reset. If H&D were already in the process of dying when they suddenly learned of Nanase and Susan being in danger, interrupting that to go help them might explain why they disappeared after they lead them into battle. Alternatively, they might have sacrificed some of their power during their reset to prevent something from happening.

They were shown as old enough to be ready to reset.  But there are so many things they could have done besides intervene personally.  Jerry talks about those too.  The only point where they would have needed to act would be to save Susan from the Vampire's first attack.  After that they could have easily handed the rest of the job off to someone else unless they had a reason for continuing to intervene, such as Awakening Nanase and Marking Susan. 

I find it improbable that Immortals who would know who Nanase and Susan are would be in the middle of a reset at the exact time when they are going abroad (a trip planned months in advance) and have to overextend themselves to help Nanase and Susan out.  I can much more easily see them choosing to reset after having safely set Nanase and Susan on the path to power and having a third party interrupt the reset turning it from proper to improper.

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51 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

If H&D's previous lives had broken Immortal Law they would have reset immediately the moment they realized they crossed the line.  That's how Pandora tells us it works.  What they did with Nanase and Susan looks like textbook "Guide and Empower" stuff to me.  I have a hard time pulling a violation out of it.

They were shown as old enough to be ready to reset.  But there are so many things they could have done besides intervene personally.  Jerry talks about those too.  The only point where they would have needed to act would be to save Susan from the Vampire's first attack.  After that they could have easily handed the rest of the job off to someone else unless they had a reason for continuing to intervene, such as Awakening Nanase and Marking Susan. 

I find it improbable that Immortals who would know who Nanase and Susan are would be in the middle of a reset at the exact time when they are going abroad (a trip planned months in advance) and have to overextend themselves to help Nanase and Susan out.  I can much more easily see them choosing to reset after having safely set Nanase and Susan on the path to power and having a third party interrupt the reset turning it from proper to improper.

One of my earlier theories was that H&D needed to awaken Nanase to help them protect Elliot the vampire attack was coincidental and Susan just happened to be there as well, but if H&D needed to reset, but couldn't leave Elliot without some sort of protection, and Elliot and Nanase would have been friends at the time anyway(probably not dating yet) doing the ASMA training, she would be the closest one capable of doing the job. They probably couldn't explain why because it might give away secrets that they're not supposed to tell.

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16 minutes ago, Scotty said:

One of my earlier theories was that H&D needed to awaken Nanase to help them protect Elliot the vampire attack was coincidental and Susan just happened to be there as well, but if H&D needed to reset, but couldn't leave Elliot without some sort of protection, and Elliot and Nanase would have been friends at the time anyway(probably not dating yet) doing the ASMA training, she would be the closest one capable of doing the job. They probably couldn't explain why because it might give away secrets that they're not supposed to tell.

It was actually a pretty OK time to leave Elliot unguarded.  Voltaire wasn't trying to kill him yet.  Lord Tedd's attempt to kill Tedd was years away, to say nothing of the creation of Ellen, needed for Magus. The only reason I can think of for a reset immediately at or after Nanase and Susan's France trip was to get through the process and begin accru8ng some power back before it all hit the fan.  But the easier answer is choosing to reset once it's all over.  Especially if they forsee the involvement of other Immortals, ESPECIALLY if they realize Pandora is involved.

An unanswered question here is how long it takes for an Immortal to return after an improper reset.  Jerry tells Susan that he'll be offline for a while, but it is a time measured in weeks.   That's for a proper reset, however. How long for an improper reset and how long would it take before an improperly reset Immortal has their stuff together as much as H&D did when we first saw them?  Given how long ago the France trip was, H&D's previous versions could have been around for as much as a couple of years more before improperly resetting by whatever means they reset.  What were they doing?

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1 minute ago, Vorlonagent said:

It was actually a pretty OK time to leave Elliot unguarded.  Voltaire wasn't trying to kill him yet.  Lord Tedd's attempt to kill Tedd was years away, to say nothing of the creation of Ellen, needed for Magus.

Lord Tedd I'll agree that the good was his only attempt, but Magus appeared in Moperville months before Nanase and Susan's trip to France so we can't rule out Pandora being involved. Heck Voltaire might have been manipulating Pandora for the past 3 or so, maybe he set it up so that Pandora could try to get Edward to kill someone, he got basically a slap on the wrist for injuring Abraham, what would have happened if he actually killed him, and how would it have affected Tedd? Actually if we go back far enough, what are the chances Voltaire was around when Tedd was born, sensed that he was a Seer, and manipulated Noriko into doing the things she did and made sure Adrian took the fall for it, and basically create an environment of secrets for Tedd to live in. That's some wild speculation I know, just throwing it out there though.

Back on H&D though, the main sticking point for me in my belief that there's more to why they've done the things they did, was that they were doing it for Edward, because back when Magus first appeared and Edward was closing the case due to lack of info, he stated he was going to enlist some friends for assistance and that there was a reason he knows so much about Immortals, I think that's evidence that Edward knows H&D and asked for their help investigating things. I think they found out about Pandora, and possibly even Voltaire, and that Tedd and his friends might be in trouble, but didn't make it back to Edward to tell him.

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6 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Lord Tedd I'll agree that the good was his only attempt, but Magus appeared in Moperville months before Nanase and Susan's trip to France so we can't rule out Pandora being involved. Heck Voltaire might have been manipulating Pandora for the past 3 or so, maybe he set it up so that Pandora could try to get Edward to kill someone, he got basically a slap on the wrist for injuring Abraham, what would have happened if he actually killed him, and how would it have affected Tedd? Actually if we go back far enough, what are the chances Voltaire was around when Tedd was born, sensed that he was a Seer, and manipulated Noriko into doing the things she did and made sure Adrian took the fall for it, and basically create an environment of secrets for Tedd to live in. That's some wild speculation I know, just throwing it out there though.

magus was probably in our world by then, yes.  But with no means by which he could get a body back, so the threat to Elliot was minimal.  We do not know that magus had any association with Sirleck at that time, however.  Whoever was behind his situation was biding their time, waiting for Tedd to do more TF Gun research, zap Elliot and create Ellen.  so again low on the threat scale for H&D's previous existences.  It's possible that Magus hoped that Tedd zapping Elliot would be enough to set up his release via Dewitchery Diamond.

Voltaire probably didn't fiddle with Norko's emotions.  Pretty sure that would be against Immortal law.  If it wasn't, Pandora wouldn't need Magus to make Ed Verres mad enough to kill Abraham.  She'd do it herself.And magus was almost certainly NOT in EGS-Prime when Noriko walked out.

16 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Back on H&D though, the main sticking point for me in my belief that there's more to why they've done the things they did, was that they were doing it for Edward, because back when Magus first appeared and Edward was closing the case due to lack of info, he stated he was going to enlist some friends for assistance and that there was a reason he knows so much about Immortals, I think that's evidence that Edward knows H&D and asked for their help investigating things. I think they found out about Pandora, and possibly even Voltaire, and that Tedd and his friends might be in trouble, but didn't make it back to Edward to tell him.

Ed Verres and H&D's previous selves are a good match..  I tend to agree with you that they were his Immortal contacts.  And investigating what we know of as Magus' entry into EGS-Prime puts them where they need to be to "find out too much" and be reset to bury what they knew.

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10 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Voltaire probably didn't fiddle with Norko's emotions.  Pretty sure that would be against Immortal law.

Voltaire wouldn't need to fiddle with Noriko's emotions magically, he did a pretty good job of getting Tara emotionally charged enough to try to kill Elliot and only got a "pushing guide and empower as far as it'll bend" response for it. Voltaire could have said something to Noriko while impersonating Adrian for all we know. Voltaire is quite capable of it.

13 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

And magus was almost certainly NOT in EGS-Prime when Noriko walked out.

No he wasn't, but he could have been an opportunity to further Voltaire's goals, remember, after Noriko left, Tedd was withdrawn to the point where people thought he was mute, he was getting bullied in school and if it wasn't for Elliot stepping in and becoming his friend, and later getting to work on the TFG, Tedd might not have come out of that. So Tedd's improved nature would have been a threat to Voltaire's plans so enter Magus, an alternate of Elliot. Not sure exactly what the logic would be behind it but he might have been counting on Pandora making Magus do something that put Elliot's life in danger, or in general would affect Tedd in some way. It's possible that the Magus idea didn't pan like Voltaire expected or maybe he just got impatient and started trying other ways to traumatize Tedd, he seems to be at a point where he's just throwing stuff at a wall and hoping something sticks, or building up to where Tedd is hit with a bunch of things at once to really traumatize him.

25 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Ed Verres and H&D's previous selves are a good match..  I tend to agree with you that they were his Immortal contacts.  And investigating what we know of as Magus' entry into EGS-Prime puts them where they need to be to "find out too much" and be reset to bury what they knew.

I know it's cliche, but I wouldn't be surprised if H&D had some info, but wanted to get real evidence before they reported back to Edward. If they did get that evidence, they were likely improperly killed right when they got it.

If what they learned was Voltaire's plans to traumatize Tedd to effect the kind of Seer he'd be, their last thought might have been "If something happened to Tedd's best friend, that would do it." hence why their current lives felt compelled to watch over Elliot.

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19 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Voltaire wouldn't need to fiddle with Noriko's emotions magically, he did a pretty good job of getting Tara emotionally charged enough to try to kill Elliot and only got a "pushing guide and empower as far as it'll bend" response for it. Voltaire could have said something to Noriko while impersonating Adrian for all we know. Voltaire is quite capable of it.

I don't believe that Immortals are allowed to impersonate specific people.  That's not guiding or empowering.  We saw Voltaire impersonate an Ancient but not a specific Ancient.

No argument that Volaire would do it in a heartbeat if he could.  Remember he impersonated someone else to a Vampire/Aberrent.  I don't think they're covered under Immortal Law the way regular people are.

21 minutes ago, Scotty said:

No he wasn't, but he could have been an opportunity to further Voltaire's goals, remember, after Noriko left, Tedd was withdrawn to the point where people thought he was mute, he was getting bullied in school and if it wasn't for Elliot stepping in and becoming his friend, and later getting to work on the TFG, Tedd might not have come out of that. So Tedd's improved nature would have been a threat to Voltaire's plans so enter Magus, an alternate of Elliot. Not sure exactly what the logic would be behind it but he might have been counting on Pandora making Magus do something that put Elliot's life in danger, or in general would affect Tedd in some way. It's possible that the Magus idea didn't pan like Voltaire expected or maybe he just got impatient and started trying other ways to traumatize Tedd, he seems to be at a point where he's just throwing stuff at a wall and hoping something sticks, or building up to where Tedd is hit with a bunch of things at once to really traumatize him.

I know it's cliche, but I wouldn't be surprised if H&D had some info, but wanted to get real evidence before they reported back to Edward. If they did get that evidence, they were likely improperly killed right when they got it.

If what they learned was Voltaire's plans to traumatize Tedd to effect the kind of Seer he'd be, their last thought might have been "If something happened to Tedd's best friend, that would do it." hence why their current lives felt compelled to watch over Elliot.

Just not seeing this.  It involves way too much speculation about way too many things we just don't know about.  Magus needed Elliot in order to get a body back.    Killing Elliot deprives Magus of any influence over Tedd.  Moreover magus won't be a bad or debilitating influence on Tedd.  He's a decent guy, just really, really desperate.

Voltaire seems interested in forcing a magic reset as a step towards his larger goal of undoing Immortal law.  Crippling Tedd would slow the world's ability to adapt to the magic shift.   How this forwards Voltaire's larger goal isn't obvious right now.

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Just now, Vorlonagent said:

I don't believe that Immortals are allowed to impersonate specific people.  That's not guiding or empowering.  We saw Voltaire impersonate an Ancient but not a specific Ancient.

I dunno if what Voltaire did to Tara was impersonating an ancient, I think he just took advantage of the fact that Tara didn't remember there was a difference between Immortals and Ancients.

10 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

No argument that Volaire would do it in a heartbeat if he could.  Remember he impersonated someone else to a Vampire/Aberrent.  I don't think they're covered under Immortal Law the way regular people are.

Voltaire did impersonate Abner over the phone with Sirleck. I don't think Adrian would be exempt from this. Also it does seem pretty clear that colluding with aberrations isn't breaking immortal law, but then again Voltaire probably expects a lot of aberrations to die and that might justify Adrian's death and Pandora's subsequent rampage.

14 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Just not seeing this.  It involves way too much speculation about way too many things we just don't know about.  Magus needed Elliot in order to get a body back.    Killing Elliot deprives Magus of any influence over Tedd.  Moreover magus won't be a bad or debilitating influence on Tedd.  He's a decent guy, just really, really desperate.

I don't think Voltaire would care that Magus needs Elliot alive, Voltaire might have just wanted a scenario that Magus' attempts would put Elliot in danger. I know the early years of the comic didn't seem have have a coherent plotline and Dan added and retconned many things, he probably didn't have the Magus thread fully fleshed out or even really thought of when Tedd zapped Elliot. Voltaire certainly wasn't around during that, so yeah I'm completely guessing how Dan might fit Voltaire into the mix here. But if Voltaire was trying to use Magus's situation to further his goal, then it's possible that either Grace showing up threw a wrench into it, or Lord Tedd's goo threw a wrench into it. I do get the feeling that maybe The Incident with Tedd turning Sarah into a catgirl and the TFG malfunctioning might have been a test run to getting Tedd to zap Elliot and preventing him from immediately changing him back.

I dunno, Voltaire's currently meddling in several threads as it is and the current arc is titled "Catspaws" so I would not be surprised if Voltaire's revealed to have been manipulating everything that's happened in the comic to some degree.

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2 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I dunno if what Voltaire did to Tara was impersonating an ancient, I think he just took advantage of the fact that Tara didn't remember there was a difference between Immortals and Ancients.

She was an out-of-towner who was primarily a destruction machine.  I don't think she knew about "Immortals".

3 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Voltaire did impersonate Abner over the phone with Sirleck. I don't think Adrian would be exempt from this. Also it does seem pretty clear that colluding with aberrations isn't breaking immortal law, but then again Voltaire probably expects a lot of aberrations to die and that might justify Adrian's death and Pandora's subsequent rampage.

I think Adrian is bait to pull Pandora into the fray.  Pit the most powerful Vampire against the most powerful Immortal.

5 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I don't think Voltaire would care that Magus needs Elliot alive, Voltaire might have just wanted a scenario that Magus' attempts would put Elliot in danger. I know the early years of the comic didn't seem have have a coherent plotline and Dan added and retconned many things, he probably didn't have the Magus thread fully fleshed out or even really thought of when Tedd zapped Elliot. Voltaire certainly wasn't around during that, so yeah I'm completely guessing how Dan might fit Voltaire into the mix here. But if Voltaire was trying to use Magus's situation to further his goal, then it's possible that either Grace showing up threw a wrench into it, or Lord Tedd's goo threw a wrench into it. I do get the feeling that maybe The Incident with Tedd turning Sarah into a catgirl and the TFG malfunctioning might have been a test run to getting Tedd to zap Elliot and preventing him from immediately changing him back.

I dunno, Voltaire's currently meddling in several threads as it is and the current arc is titled "Catspaws" so I would not be surprised if Voltaire's revealed to have been manipulating everything that's happened in the comic to some degree.

Voltaire doesn't have to have been a part of those earlier plot threads.  He might not have been active in Moperville until the magic buildup became evident.  We don't know why he feels it is important to cripple Tedd.  We don't know if Voltaire knows Magus exists.  I'd expect he does since he seems to know a lot of stuff going on that I wouldn't expect.

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2 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I don't think she knew about "Immortals".

She didn't know they were called Immortals, but she was told that the "Ancients" on that side can lie, which is a huge difference, and that's what she forgot about.

7 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I think Adrian is bait to pull Pandora into the fray.  Pit the most powerful Vampire against the most powerful Immortal.

I agree that Adrian is bait to get a reaction from Pandora, but I don't think it would stop at Sirleck, Pandora knows there's another Immortal meddling in things, if she got wind that an Immortal directed Sirleck into targeting her son....well I don't think Pandora would be forced to reset for killing aberrations, but how many Immortals would she tear through trying to find Voltaire before they forced a reset on her? Pandora had stated that Immortal law only protects mortals on the physical plane, for everything else, she can be very direct, so I doubt any reaction to Pandora's rage would be instant.

17 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Voltaire doesn't have to have been a part of those earlier plot threads.  He might not have been active in Moperville until the magic buildup became evident.  We don't know why he feels it is important to cripple Tedd.  We don't know if Voltaire knows Magus exists.  I'd expect he does since he seems to know a lot of stuff going on that I wouldn't expect.

Voltaire isn't trying to cripple Tedd, he's trying to manipulate how Tedd ends up fulfilling his second purpose, Heka stated that if a Seer is morally good than he wants them to be eligible for the second purpose. But if he felt Pandora's assessment of Tedd was unfavorable, then he would have used Pandora to sabotage Tedd's chances of fulfilling that second purpose. Then we have Voltaire talking about how Plan A could have been completed by him manipulating Tedd himself to worsen the outcome of Tedd fulfilling the second purpose to which the best possible evidence to a negative outcome might be how Lord Tedd turned out. If Voltaire wanted to cripple Tedd, all he would need to to was reveal to Tedd what that second purpose would be.

Voltaire has to know about Magus because he's aware of Sirleck and what Sirleck is doing. There's no way that Voltaire had spent that past 8 months or so (from New and Old Flames) trying to get Elliot killed and not know why Elliot had soo much attention on him. He'd be looking at every thing trying to figure what he can used to his advantage, Pandora marked Dex, Voltaire gave Dex a pendant to channel more power and manipulate him, also that pendant was meant to direct blame onto Pandora, Pandora recruited Sirleck to help Magus make an attempt to get a physical body, now Voltaire's using Sirleck to target Adrian. While I don't think Voltaire particularly cares whether Magus succeeds in getting a body or not, I can't believe that Voltaire would not know he exists.

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5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I don't believe that Immortals are allowed to impersonate specific people. 

Pandora impersonated Wolf back in Sister 2.

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12 hours ago, partner555 said:

Pandora impersonated Wolf back in Sister 2.

That was pointed out to me elsewhere. 

But I don't think Immortals are allowed to inflict harm, which ought to include emotional harm.

15 hours ago, Scotty said:

She didn't know they were called Immortals, but she was told that the "Ancients" on that side can lie, which is a huge difference, and that's what she forgot about.

Pretty much.  It was something that didn't apply to hitting or clawing things right now, so Tara didn't bother remembering it.  :) 

15 hours ago, Scotty said:

I agree that Adrian is bait to get a reaction from Pandora, but I don't think it would stop at Sirleck, Pandora knows there's another Immortal meddling in things, if she got wind that an Immortal directed Sirleck into targeting her son....well I don't think Pandora would be forced to reset for killing aberrations, but how many Immortals would she tear through trying to find Voltaire before they forced a reset on her? Pandora had stated that Immortal law only protects mortals on the physical plane, for everything else, she can be very direct, so I doubt any reaction to Pandora's rage would be instant.

There would be no reaction from Immortal Law.  It's an automagic thing.  Immortals would have to get together and force a reset on Pandora.

Considering Immortal law doesn't cover Werewolves, it almost certainly doesn't cover Aberrations/Vampires.  Once Sirlect attacks Raven I can't think of anything besides holding Raven hostage would save Sirleck.

but how would Pandora find out an Immortal had Sirleck go after her son?  Sirleck thinks Abner told him.  It's possible that her *Immortal senses* would realize it wasn't Abner (hopefully before she does something they both would regret) but what would point her at Voltaire?

15 hours ago, Scotty said:

Voltaire isn't trying to cripple Tedd, he's trying to manipulate how Tedd ends up fulfilling his second purpose, Heka stated that if a Seer is morally good than he wants them to be eligible for the second purpose. But if he felt Pandora's assessment of Tedd was unfavorable, then he would have used Pandora to sabotage Tedd's chances of fulfilling that second purpose. Then we have Voltaire talking about how Plan A could have been completed by him manipulating Tedd himself to worsen the outcome of Tedd fulfilling the second purpose to which the best possible evidence to a negative outcome might be how Lord Tedd turned out. If Voltaire wanted to cripple Tedd, all he would need to to was reveal to Tedd what that second purpose would be.

Point taken, again.  Emotionally cripple Tedd not functionally cripple him. 

15 hours ago, Scotty said:

Voltaire has to know about Magus because he's aware of Sirleck and what Sirleck is doing. There's no way that Voltaire had spent that past 8 months or so (from New and Old Flames) trying to get Elliot killed and not know why Elliot had soo much attention on him. He'd be looking at every thing trying to figure what he can used to his advantage, Pandora marked Dex, Voltaire gave Dex a pendant to channel more power and manipulate him, also that pendant was meant to direct blame onto Pandora, Pandora recruited Sirleck to help Magus make an attempt to get a physical body, now Voltaire's using Sirleck to target Adrian. While I don't think Voltaire particularly cares whether Magus succeeds in getting a body or not, I can't believe that Voltaire would not know he exists.

Agreed, That is the way to bet.  But we still don't know at what point Voltaire started doing things.  There's no need or point to trying to retcon Voltaire into every past story point he could possibly be a part of.  After a certain point it just creates big tangled knots of plot.   We need motive means and opportunity for each one.

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4 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Emotionally cripple Tedd not functionally cripple him. 

I wouldn't really call it crippling at all, I don't think Voltaire's intentions are for Tedd to become withdrawn to the point of making people think he was mute again. When Voltaire was talking about Plan A, he mentioned that the plan "didn't include filling him with contempt and distrust precisely where I want it to be" which makes me thing Voltaire wants Tedd to lash out, probably violently as well.

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11 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I wouldn't really call it crippling at all, I don't think Voltaire's intentions are for Tedd to become withdrawn to the point of making people think he was mute again. When Voltaire was talking about Plan A, he mentioned that the plan "didn't include filling him with contempt and distrust precisely where I want it to be" which makes me thing Voltaire wants Tedd to lash out, probably violently as well.

There's a case to be made that "lashing out violently" equates to 'emotionally crippled.", but I get your meaning.  Tedd goes dark, not closer to catatonic.

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8 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

But I don't think Immortals are allowed to inflict harm, which ought to include emotional harm.

Some lessons are harsh.  If Pandora believes that the harm she is inflicting is to guide someone, then there's no conflict with Immortal rules.

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Considering Immortal law doesn't cover Werewolves, it almost certainly doesn't cover Aberrations/Vampires.  Once Sirlect attacks Raven I can't think of anything besides holding Raven hostage would save Sirleck.

And possessing Adrian would likely be a subset of holding him hostage.  Pandora wouldn't be able to harm Sirleck without risking harm to Adrian.  Most evil option would be if, once possessed, the subject cannot be forcibly separated without dying.  Sirleck would have to (claim he could) let Adrian go willingly to do so without harm.  That option would, I think, be the most evil all around, in several aspects of plot and character torture.  >:-)

7 hours ago, Scotty said:

I wouldn't really call it crippling at all, I don't think Voltaire's intentions are for Tedd to become withdrawn to the point of making people think he was mute again. When Voltaire was talking about Plan A, he mentioned that the plan "didn't include filling him with contempt and distrust precisely where I want it to be" which makes me thing Voltaire wants Tedd to lash out, probably violently as well.

Who is Tedd showing the most distrust towards right now?  If we're talking a person, I'd say his father.  If we're talking in broader terms, Tedd is showing contempt and distrust towards the Will of Magic and its "Bullcrap!"  Or at least he was, last time Voltaire saw him.  Between Elliot's acceptance of Tedd and his pep talk about how Tedd will figure out the new magic and regain the ability to transform eventually, and Pandora's show of support and love and acceptance of her goddaughter whatever form she takes, I don't think Tedd is nearly as traumatized as Voltaire thinks she is.  As Tedd himself thought, the difference between Tedd and Lord Tedd may well be the lov and support of his friends.

 

 

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1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

Who is Tedd showing the most distrust towards right now?  If we're talking a person, I'd say his father.  If we're talking in broader terms, Tedd is showing contempt and distrust towards the Will of Magic and its "Bullcrap!"  Or at least he was, last time Voltaire saw him.  Between Elliot's acceptance of Tedd and his pep talk about how Tedd will figure out the new magic and regain the ability to transform eventually, and Pandora's show of support and love and acceptance of her goddaughter whatever form she takes, I don't think Tedd is nearly as traumatized as Voltaire thinks she is.  As Tedd himself thought, the difference between Tedd and Lord Tedd may well be the lov and support of his friends.

Plan CM on the surface doesn't seem like it should really affect Tedd, unless it pulls someone that Tedd into harms way, Elliot seems to be off to table in terms of Voltaire having been forced to vow to not do anything with the intent on getting Elliot killed. But there might be a loophole in the fact that Voltaire doesn't have to worry about doing something now because he's already set things motion and Elliot could still get killed in the process and Voltaire's vow wouldn't retroactively affect him. There's also the possibility of Susan getting hurt or killed by the vampires, or Nanase, or Sarah, or Ellen or maybe even Grace, and they'd certainly be close enough to Tedd to get a traumatic response. Heck, Edward getting killed would likely trigger a response from Tedd as well, even though there's that rift forming over Tedd's genderfluidity, I don't think it's anywhere near the point that Tedd wouldn't care if anything happened to his father and losing his father before he even had a chance to talk about the issue would be damaging as well.

Also there is still a possibility that Voltaire knows that Pandora is going around trying to fix things and is getting set up to undo all that. That pendant he gave Dex made Adrian believe that Pandora was responsible for Noah nearly being killed. There could be something else up Voltaire's sleeves that would suddenly drive a wedge between Pandora and Tedd.

Maybe allowing Pandora to go to Tedd will drive the wedge between Tedd and Edward further if Edward is adamant that Pandora was trying to manipulate Tedd for her own entertainment, Tedd would have to choose whether to believe Pandora, or his father, and if he chooses his father, Pandora would be crushed, but if Tedd chose Pandora, then Edward might be forced to take drastic action which might make Tedd take action as well.

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