Comic for Friday, Sep 1, 2023

[Darth Fluffy 302]

Comic for Friday, Sep 1, 2023

So, this is the tie-in with the last NP comic arc. Mirabel is a very special chicken, she is a Layer of Reality. Do NOT drop the eggs. You do not want to deal with what happens.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

 

There are a lot of things in Moperville that seem magical, but the experts insist are not magic.

Now Tedd has a test that will make the experts redefine their positions.

Or they may kick Tedd to the curb.  Experts don't like to be shown up.

 

[Amiable Dorsai 70]

Well, well, Kevin's monomaniacal rant did spark an insight in Tedd. I'm looking forward to Tedd's test of his "layers" hypothesis.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

 

There are a lot of things in Moperville that seem magical, but the experts insist are not magic.

Now Tedd has a test that will make the experts redefine their positions.

Or they may kick Tedd to the curb.  Experts don't like to be shown up.

'Exists in another universe' is not magical. 'Arrived from that universe' probably is, although Arthur C. Clarke & sufficiently advanced tech . . .

I suppose the point is moot, though, both are essentially beyond them and out of their control. Or, in the context of the EGS comic, some magic would be marginally within their control.

[mlooney 3,417]

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Arthur C. Clarke & sufficiently advanced tech

Tedd is trying for the Girl Genius version ""Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!""

https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20081205

[Darth Fluffy 302]

. . . which is essentially a paraphrase . . .

[ijuin 572]

EGS magic is (or was, prior to the decision to stop changing) one of the few types of magic that could NOT be reliably analyzed via the Scientific Method due to completely violating the Copernican Principle, i.e. that the rules of the universe are the same for all people in all times and places.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

 

The rules of the Universe for hydrogen atoms are the same in all times and places.

The rules for people varry wildly.

 

[mlooney 3,417]

18 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

. . . which is essentially a paraphrase . . .

It's no so much a paraphrase as a reversal. Technology == Magic isn't the same as Magic == Science.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

36 minutes ago, mlooney said:

It's no so much a paraphrase as a reversal. Technology == Magic isn't the same as Magic == Science.

 

That's true, science, the body of knowledge of our universal environment obtained through methodical study, and technology, the ability to apply that science to your culture, are two different things. That is why I maintain that engineers are the ultimate experimental physicists. One you build an object, it's hard to deny the physics. (It can be done, though. Flat Earthers have answers for satellites. "They're held up by balloons." (It would be funny if it weren't so sad.))

The nature of electricity, the rudiments of the underlying structure of matter, and nuclear decay were discovered in the 1800s. Many wonders, like the ability to see through flesh were discovered. "Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic." (Bleeds into technology, though; the ability to see through flesh was quickly applied to medicine.)

If you posit a world where magic exists, it is essentially just another feature of the environment, like any other. Studying magic would be basically studying another aspect of science. Pretty much what Tedd does. "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!"

But, fundamentally 'magic' is what happens when things occur that your 'science' can't explain. The explanation muddies the boundary between the science and the tech that applies the science; you are at this point no longer really concerned with 'we know' vs 'we can do', the focus is on 'that can't happen'. In that sense, science and technology are in the same bailiwick as opposed to an event that seems impossible. (Even then, the more logical explanation is 'it's a trick'.)

I don't see those as the same statement, but they are not entirely dissimilar. Which is what a paraphrase often is, using a worded trope to express a new direction of thought. It really isn't black vs white, binary choice, yes or no, shade of gray excluded; words have nuance.

Did Agatha (or whoever said it in Girl Genius, I don't recall) mean exactly the same thing . . . well, no, it is inverted for a reason, to make a point. Is it entirely divorced from the original? Hell, no it would make no sense then, it is clearly calling out the original to contrast with. How different are they really? Sparks in Girl Genius are technologists of the magic milieu of their universe, much like Tedd is in his; as such 'magic' in their context can be viewed a 'just a different source of energy, that obeys different rules'.

The biggest difference that I see is that "Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic." applies to our world, "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" only makes sense in the context of a fictional world where magic is possible.

Does that track with the point you were making?

 

[ijuin 572]

What made EGS magic immune to science is that it would change the rules with the deliberate motive of preventing people from understanding it.

[mlooney 3,417]

2 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

The biggest difference that I see is that "Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic." applies to our world, "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" only makes sense in the context of a fictional world where magic is possible.

Does that track with the point you were making?

More or less.

[mlooney 3,417]

37 minutes ago, ijuin said:

What made EGS magic immune to science is that it would change the rules with the deliberate motive of preventing people from understanding it.

It was quite immune to science, or at least the transformation branch of magic wasn't or Tedd's glove and his wands would not work.