Political Discussion Thread (READ FIRST POST)

[mlooney 3,417]

1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Didn't we fight two world wars and a cold war with dozens of proxy wars just to prove to each other that blindly following a strong man who says the things the most frightened voters want to hear isn't a path to lasting peace and prosperity?

Yeah, but Jimmy Carter didn't get reelected.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

4 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Didn't we fight two world wars and a cold war with dozens of proxy wars just to prove to each other that blindly following a strong man who says the things the most frightened voters want to hear isn't a path to lasting peace and prosperity?

Our resident Egyptian royal pointed out that this belonged in the Political Discussion thread. "Never underestimate the power of aggregated stupid people."

To be entirely fair, stupidity is too harsh and unspecific. We all have blind spots, lapses, areas of poor judgement. I know many otherwise intelligent people who believe some pretty bizarre things.

It is helpful to be aware of this; in the words of Harry Callahan, "A man's got to know his limitation". But thanks to the Dunning-Kruger effect, it is often most wanted where is is least likely to happen. (I won't mention Donald Trump's name here.) ((Oops.))

Compound this by the primary root cause motivation for much of what we or any other life form does is fear. In your gut, even if you don't trust the source entirely, if you have some fear of the end result, you will shade your judgement toward immediately perceived relative safety.

In America, call something Communist if you want to tear it down. In Russia, call your inoffensive neighbors, led by a Jew, Nazis, when you want to employ Hitler's tactics against them.

Then there's sources. Disinformation is not new, nor are disparate points of view. We have, however, in our era, lowered the bar for entry into the disinformation game to where anyone can play.

I believe it will only become more difficult to find out what is going on as AI is trained to make the lies we are told more consistent across the board and the world becomes more polarized.

Case in point, if you grew up during the space race, odds are extremely good that you do not question that we went to the moon. I know several people quite a bit younger than myself who think it's a hoax, and some get quite militant about their disbelief.

 

4 hours ago, mlooney said:

Putin, unlike a lot of other politicians, has control of a nuclear button and has made threats to use it.  That sets him apart from most others. 

Putin indeed seems to have the requisite political myopia, personal hubris, and arguably justified paranoia to use nukes. I say 'justified paranoia' because for him, it ends the same, either way. He's near the end of his clock; he can't just walk away at this point.

Trump is in a similar boat. He doesn't have anything to loose by doubling down on his bullshit. In truth, it's all he's good at. He doesn't have anything to loose by running in 2024; it's his best strategy. Pardon all the miscreants, make the problem go away.

 

3 hours ago, mlooney said:

Yeah, but Jimmy Carter didn't get reelected.

Sorry, not seeing the relevance. 'Splain?

 

 

[mlooney 3,417]

18 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

21 hours ago, mlooney said:

Yeah, but Jimmy Carter didn't get reelected.

Sorry, not seeing the relevance. 'Splain?

 

Carter rather famously didn't tell voters exactly what they wanted to hear.  Of course post Watergate the Democrats could have run Micky Mouse and won. 

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

My dad didn't care for Carter.  But more than once I heard him say Carter was the closest thing to an honest man who could be elected President.

[mlooney 3,417]

[Darth Fluffy 302]

2 hours ago, mlooney said:

Carter rather famously didn't tell voters exactly what they wanted to hear.  Of course post Watergate the Democrats could have run Micky Mouse and won. 

 

2 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

My dad didn't care for Carter.  But more than once I heard him say Carter was the closest thing to an honest man who could be elected President.

 

Carter is genuinely interesting. He was, independent of being President, a successful business man (peanut farmer), more so than Mr. 'The Art of the Steal'. He was a successful governor of Georgia in a difficult time of integration. He is genuinely intelligent; he was a nuclear engineer in the Navy. He also seems to be a person of good will, evidenced by his work since being president; he is arguably our best ex-president ever. And he has remained active into an advanced age. But few would cite him as a good leader of our nation.

I don't recall any outstanding legislation being passed during his tenure. Contrast during Nixon's tenure, several needed progressive programs were established.

Carter will also be remembered for the failed attempt to free the American hostages in Iran. The operation was well within our capability. Reading between the line, decades later, the attempt seems rushed; the helicopters should have been thoroughly checked out beforehand. I've heard that Carter micromanaged the operation and did not delegate. Seems plausible.

I think your dad is right, Jimmy Carter is a basically decent human being who has been reasonably successful in most of his endeavors, but he was not a great president. But neither was his competition (Gerald Ford). Reagan trounced him with pure charisma.

 

 

 

[mlooney 3,417]

2 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I don't recall any outstanding legislation being passed during his tenure.

Depends on what you call outstanding.  Created the Department of Energy and the Department of Education.  Here is the list that the Carter Library thinks is important. 

https://www.jimmycarterlibrary.gov/research/keylegis

[mlooney 3,417]

Also created the "Super fund" for dealing with ecological disasters. 

[Darth Fluffy 302]

3 hours ago, mlooney said:

Depends on what you call outstanding.  Created the Department of Energy and the Department of Education.  Here is the list that the Carter Library thinks is important. 

https://www.jimmycarterlibrary.gov/research/keylegis

 

2 hours ago, mlooney said:

Also created the "Super fund" for dealing with ecological disasters. 

I guess that he did more than I remembered.

Department of Energy is a mystery to me. Do they in some sense guarantee our energy future? If so, do they work with the EPA? They don't seem to. The most visible thing about them is they seem to have fingers in anything related to nuclear. Sandia Labs was under the Department of Energy when I was at Kirtland. They seemed to lack focus.

I would say kind of the same thing about the Department of Education, but differently. They seem to sort of know what they are about, but they struggle with their role vs the states vs the local communities, and it seems to blow either way depending on who's running things. (Not a fan of Voss). Even the initiatives which sound good on paper ('No child left behind') suffer from poor implementation that does the opposite of what was intended, promoting unprepared kids when they are not ready.

Superfund, I don't know. The need is great, committing cash to remission is a good thing, but piling up a bunch of government money is kind of like chumming the water to attract the sharks. Decades old, few have yet to be declared 'successful'.

To my mind, all of this fits the Carter schtick, well intentioned, but poor on follow-through.

Don't get me wrong, I like the man, just not a fan of his presidency.

 

 

 

[mlooney 3,417]

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

Best summary of Jimmy Carter

[The Old Hack 2,448]

On 10/3/2022 at 5:50 PM, Darth Fluffy said:

Carter will also be remembered for the failed attempt to free the American hostages in Iran.

Which is bull.

I remember that the hostages got freed on the very day of Ronald Reagan's inauguration. I was fourteen years old at the time and still smart enough to realize that there was NO WAY he could claim credit for that. For cripes' sake, he had just taken office.

Years later I learned that Carter's diplomats had successfully negotiated for releasing the hostages, but then one of Reagan's people had gotten in touch with the Iranians and told them they would do something nice for them if they waited until after the inauguration before releasing them.

In short: Carter successfully negotiated for their release. Ronald Reagan just got to claim the credit.

On 9/26/2022 at 2:49 AM, Don Edwards said:

Wish I were guilty of the sort of financial mismanagement that results in net-worth estimates ranging from US$3 billion to US$10 billion...

Maybe he made some extra on the side by selling documents vital to the security of the US. I mean that should be OK, he declassified them with the power of his mind.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

After the election, Iran got in touch with Regan's team.  Negotiating with foreign & hostile powers is something Presidents elect are legally prohibited from doing.  So Regan's team told Iran they would honor any deal made with Carter, but they would not get a better deal with Reagan.  

Iran knew exactly when The Gipper would be sworn in, so they arranged timing on the transport assuring the hostages would be out of Iran after Carter was out of office.  Some susspect it was a deliberate insult to Jimmy

[The Old Hack 2,448]

47 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

After the election, Iran got in touch with Regan's team.  Negotiating with foreign & hostile powers is something Presidents elect are legally prohibited from doing.  So Regan's team told Iran they would honor any deal made with Carter, but they would not get a better deal with Reagan.  

Iran knew exactly when The Gipper would be sworn in, so they arranged timing on the transport assuring the hostages would be out of Iran after Carter was out of office.  Some susspect it was a deliberate insult to Jimmy

I'll allow for that possibility. It might not have been arranged by Reagan's team. Though I do note it didn't stop them from claiming credit.

[mlooney 3,417]

Oops 

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

As for the failed military rescue attempt?

How much of that failure was due to Carter's mismanagement or interference is debatable.  But the point is there was only so much he was willing to risk militarily.  Any further escalation might lead to war.

Should additional attempts have been made?

[Darth Fluffy 302]

20 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

After the election, Iran got in touch with Regan's team.  Negotiating with foreign & hostile powers is something Presidents elect are legally prohibited from doing.  So Regan's team told Iran they would honor any deal made with Carter, but they would not get a better deal with Reagan.  

Iran knew exactly when The Gipper would be sworn in, so they arranged timing on the transport assuring the hostages would be out of Iran after Carter was out of office.  Some susspect it was a deliberate insult to Jimmy

The insult to Jimmy Carter is indeed plausible. They would have had an ax to grind about the attempt to free the hostages by force.

 

20 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

In short: Carter successfully negotiated for their release. Ronald Reagan just got to claim the credit.

 

19 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

I'll allow for that possibility. It might not have been arranged by Reagan's team. Though I do note it didn't stop them from claiming credit.

Saint Ronald's 'great' presidency does not bear up under close scrutiny, to be sure.

The G.O.P. would take offense at that, yet RR is the point of divergence from the conservative mainstream that lead them to the la la land they exist in today.

I think his personal saving grace  was his on stage persona and his sense of humor.

 

9 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

As for the failed military rescue attempt?

How much of that failure was due to Carter's mismanagement or interference is debatable.  But the point is there was only so much he was willing to risk militarily.  Any further escalation might lead to war.

Should additional attempts have been made?

It is suspect that it failed at all; we and others have pulled off more difficult missions. One of the rotary air frames had mechanical issues. Excuse me, but how the hell does that not get noticed well before a critical mission? I seem to recall 'pilot error' being a factor. Pilots do make errors, if they are doing something that pushes the envelope. Landings on an aircraft carrier are subject to pilot error. Routine night time incursions into hostile but unguarded territory should not be, yes, even at night time, unless the pilot is either being second guessed as he flies or has not been given adequate rest prior to the mission. I've never seen a good explanation, and I'm sure anything official would cast blame to the wrong quarters, but it really does not add up.

Another attempt, once it was known that we were trying? No, at that point the Iranians would be on a hair trigger to execute the hostages.

It's probably a good thing I'll never be president. I would have considered that taking my countrymen hostage is already an act of war, and would have given Iran an ultimatum, "Release the hostages, now, or suffer the consequences."

 

21 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Maybe he made some extra on the side by selling documents vital to the security of the US. I mean that should be OK, he declassified them with the power of his mind.

It hurts my head to think about this waste of space named Donald Trump. It truly saddens me that anyone is naive enough to defend him (it?). Yes, why aren't the missing documents being addressed? What else is still missing (many empty cover sheets)? He has the nerve to claim they are 'his'?

He came into office, and it's like he has an aura of darkness around him; the cockroaches came out of the woodwork. They knew their own.

He takes 'shameless' to new ground.

What a mindless blowhard.

 

 

[mlooney 3,417]

[The Old Hack 2,448]

On 9/10/2022 at 4:53 PM, ijuin said:

Cogito, ergo sum. If you did not exist, then who is having those thoughts?

My writer, of course.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

Funny, but sad that it needed to be said:

The man who wrote the Onion's Supreme Court brief takes parody very seriously

The Amicus Brief

 

[Don Edwards 548]

2 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

It's probably a good thing I'll never be president. I would have considered that taking my countrymen hostage is already an act of war, and would have given Iran an ultimatum, "Release the hostages, now, or suffer the consequences."

The US has this strange conceit embedded in our Constitution, that it is solely the US Congress' decision whether or not the US is at war.

You'd think the nation attacking us would have some say in the matter.

Iran, as I understand things, has been at war against the US since very shortly after the Shah lost power. They've had a finger in numerous attacks against the US, its allies, and neutral nations. But the US is not at war.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

1 hour ago, Don Edwards said:

The US has this strange conceit embedded in our Constitution, that it is solely the US Congress' decision whether or not the US is at war.

You'd think the nation attacking us would have some say in the matter.

Iran, as I understand things, has been at war against the US since very shortly after the Shah lost power. They've had a finger in numerous attacks against the US, its allies, and neutral nations. But the US is not at war.

To be entirely fair, we tend to set ourselves up for these kind of situations. Iran blames us for the Shah, and that's not entirely inaccurate.

[mlooney 3,417]

The oddest thing to come out of the whole Iranian hostage situation was Blue Oyster Cult's song "Divine Wind".

"If he thinks we're the devil, then lets send him to hell".
 

 

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

Foreign governments and businesses bribe & support local monarchs.  The puppet kings loose touch with, and respect from, the people they supposedly rule.

Who could have seen that comming?

[Darth Fluffy 302]

4 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Foreign governments and businesses bribe & support local monarchs.  The puppet kings loose touch with, and respect from, the people they supposedly rule.

Who could have seen that coming?

Indeed. Although we have enough track record with that, that you'd think we'd have a clue by now.