Political Discussion Thread (READ FIRST POST)

[Darth Fluffy 302]

5 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

After all, he was impeached on allegations of doing things that Vice President Biden publicly boasted of having done,  . . .

Specifically? I'm not tracking with this in the slightest. Of all the indictments, none of these are things Joe Biden shares. Please, enlighten me.

 

7 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

. . . and is now being prosecuted for offenses that were not a problem worth prosecuting when Secretary of State Hillary Clinton committed them on a much larger scale . . .

If you mean her private server, that was boneheaded, but it was not of the scope nor stubborn deceit of Trump holding classified after his time in office. Not seeing your 'on a much larger scale'.  Please elaborate.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

I don't remember Vice President Biden publicly boasting of having incited a riot in an attempt to interrupt a public proceeding and steal an election. Nor of having attempted to influence himself to declare an election invalid. *scratches head*

[Don Edwards 548]

Ah, I specifically said Trump was *impeached* on charges that Biden boasted of. Specifically, he was accused of using his position as President to manipulate a foreign government (Ukraine, if I remember correctly) into doing something for his personal benefit. The stuff about his election shenanigans (including where he incited a riot by explicitly calling for peaceful protests) is separate, and not what he was impeached over.

(Aside: if you hear "dog whistles" you might want to reconsider the question of who is the dog.)

Biden boasted of threatening, as Vice President, to withhold US aid from another country if they didn't fire a prosecutor who was investigating possible corruption relating to the employment of his son Hunter Biden at a very high salary in a position he had no qualifications for.

...

oh, and if you're wondering about my political positions, I figure that anyone who actually wants to be President is either too corrupt, too power-hungry, or too insane to be permitted anywhere near the White House. Which applies to any particular such person is open for discussion but not really important. I'm not notably happier with people who want to be in Congress.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

28 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

Ah, I specifically said Trump was *impeached* on charges that Biden boasted of. Specifically, he was accused of using his position as President to manipulate a foreign government (Ukraine, if I remember correctly) into doing something for his personal benefit. The stuff about his election shenanigans (including where he incited a riot by explicitly calling for peaceful protests) is separate, and not what he was impeached over.

Biden boasted of threatening, as Vice President, to withhold US aid from another country if they didn't fire a prosecutor who was investigating possible corruption relating to the employment of his son Hunter Biden at a very high salary in a position he had no qualifications for.

Debunked, please read. Your source is tainted.

 

47 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

oh, and if you're wondering about my political positions, I figure that anyone who actually wants to be President is either too corrupt, too power-hungry, or too insane to be permitted anywhere near the White House. Which applies to any particular such person is open for discussion but not really important. I'm not notably happier with people who want to be in Congress.

I used to believe something along those lines, I no longer think it's entirely accurate. I believe many that seek political power (not all) are idealists, at least initially. I think the environment is stifling, and will tend to taint motivations; the need to seek reelection can muddy the ethics, and so on. I think this is largely true in the past of even those I disagree with.

Today, we are seeing something new, the rise of the grandstanding opportunist, and the Orange Idiot is only a forerunner. I have little use for Ted Cruz, nor Ron Insanity, for MTG nor L Bobblehead. These parasites have no moral nor ethical framework, they are a spineless infestation.

I have some respect for true conservatives like Liz Cheney, who stood her ground against her own party to stand for what is right, and it cost her.

 

47 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

(Aside: if you hear "dog whistles" you might want to reconsider the question of who is the dog.)

I hope it's Snoopy. Or Brian Griffin. I like them.

 

[The Old Hack 2,448]

39 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

The stuff about his election shenanigans (including where he incited a riot by explicitly calling for peaceful protests) is separate, and not what he was impeached over.

Actually he was impeached over it. Not even a month after. And no, there was nothing peaceful in his call for rioting. Unless you would argue that four police officers was murdered peacefully during the protests. The counterargument was that this riot happened spontaneously, which I am having some trouble imagining given the large number of weaponry and paramilitary equipment the 'peaceful' protesters brought along. Presumably the gallows that was erected was intended to send a peaceful sign of protest as well? And they merely had the materials at hand through happenstance?

40 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

(Aside: if you hear "dog whistles" you might want to reconsider the question of who is the dog.)

Ah. This is a 'polite aside' as opposed to a not very subtle ad hominem where you accuse us of being trained dogs. How nice. No-one even brought up that term, and yet you are throwing it out simply to justify insulting us. Thank you.

In any event the employment of dog whistles is moot. There was plenty of evidence during the January 6th hearings that the riot was planned and prepared for. I spent a great deal of time listening to them in toto so I would not have to rely on selected sound bites from biased sources. (Yes, I include MSNBC and CNN in that. There is no substitute for direct observation.)

42 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

Biden boasted of threatening, as Vice President, to withhold US aid from another country if they didn't fire a prosecutor who was investigating possible corruption relating to the employment of his son Hunter Biden at a very high salary in a position he had no qualifications for.

Could you give us a source for this remarkable claim? Also, even if true, did he demand that they provide falsified evidence that his principal opponent in the upcoming election be engaged in corruption? Remember, the former president was not impeached for corrupt exercise of power. He was impeached for an attempt to corruptly influence the outcome of the upcoming election.

As you have correctly pointed out, corruption is terrifyingly common among politicians. It is employing their power to affect elections that steps beyond that. That has only happened once before as far as I am aware. A fellow named Nixon, I do believe. He was not impeached as he resigned before it could happen -- and it most likely would have.

43 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

oh, and if you're wondering about my political positions, I figure that anyone who actually wants to be President is either too corrupt, too power-hungry, or too insane to be permitted anywhere near the White House. Which applies to any particular such person is open for discussion but not really important. I'm not notably happier with people who want to be in Congress.

And yet all of Trump's 44 predecessors managed to get through their elected terms of office without attempting to violate the peaceful transfer of office. I do not really see how you can place an equivalence between that and all other politicians when none of them has ever tried to violate anything as fundamental as the people's right to choose which politician to put in office.

[ijuin 572]

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Actually he was impeached over it. Not even a month after. And no, there was nothing peaceful in his call for rioting. Unless you would argue that four police officers was murdered peacefully during the protests. The counterargument was that this riot happened spontaneously, which I am having some trouble imagining given the large number of weaponry and paramilitary equipment the 'peaceful' protesters brought along. Presumably the gallows that was erected was intended to send a peaceful sign of protest as well? And they merely had the materials at hand through happenstance?

I believe that the assertion is that Trump called for peaceful action, and the crowd got violent in defiance of his intent. This is rather akin to Henry II’s declaration of “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?” in reference to Archbishop Thomas Beckett, soon after which Beckett was assassinated.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 hour ago, ijuin said:

I believe that the assertion is that Trump called for peaceful action, and the crowd got violent in defiance of his intent. This is rather akin to Henry II’s declaration of “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?” in reference to Archbishop Thomas Beckett, soon after which Beckett was assassinated.

Well sure, if Henry had had an arms depot hand out free bishop assassination weapons to all visitors as well as giving them full information about the Archbishop's home, its security and his patterns of movement.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

He said to Pence, "You're too honest", then called for his assassination (in weasel words). Not even a villain's sense of loyalty for loyalty.

Re: Dog Whistles and innuendo, listen to what is being said. Are they making a statement, or are they 'suggesting', couching their words with 'I don't know' (then why are you talking about it?), making false equivalencies?

[mlooney 3,417]

Looks like he didn't fall out a window.  To bad the crash killed other people.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66599733

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 hour ago, mlooney said:

Looks like he didn't fall out a window.

We don't know that. Maybe he fell out of a plane window just before the plane crashed.

Yeah, I know, planes don't normally have windows. But never underestimate Russian defenestration technology.

[mlooney 3,417]

2 hours ago, mlooney said:

Looks like he didn't fall out a window.  To bad the crash killed other people.

One of the other people killed was Dmitry Utkin who was the number 2 in Wagner.  Also a Nazi.  Had SS tattoos on his shoulders.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

2 minutes ago, mlooney said:

One of the other people killed was Dmitry Utkin who was the number 2 in Wagner.  Also a Nazi.  Had SS tattoos on his shoulders.

Oh dear, how sad, however shall the world cope with their loss. I weep bitter tears, or would if I cared.

[mlooney 3,417]

Wagner supposedly had a plan that will take effect if and when Prigozhin was killed/died.  We may see march on Moscow II, the Revenge of the Mercenaries.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

3 minutes ago, mlooney said:

Wagner supposedly had a plan that will take effect if and when Prigozhin was killed/died.  We may see march on Moscow II, the Revenge of the Mercenaries.

Awesome, I just bought popcorn.

[mlooney 3,417]

Indeed.  The military/NAFO Discord servers I'm on are very busy right now.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

2 hours ago, mlooney said:

Indeed.  The military/NAFO Discord servers I'm on are very busy right now.

I wonder if there is a FAFO server. If there is, it must have been RED HOT for a while now and this won't have helped much.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

This was news to me, saw it here first.

Unexpected, yet not unexpected. Perhaps the delay was unexpected, and the method.

So why a plane, with other passengers? I suppose there is plausible deniability (in Russian News Media anyway).

They are blaming it on 'a rebel faction' which if you think about it, might be one of the most honest things Putin has said about himself.

"Feared Dead' - by whom, exactly? 'Feared Alive' seems like it would be more of a thing.

I wonder if they have his body? Seems they'd want to know for sure. I guess a plane crash will yield a body, as long as there is no fire. And the investigators can make sure there are no survivors, if need be.

 

7 hours ago, mlooney said:

One of the other people killed was Dmitry Utkin who was the number 2 in Wagner.  Also a Nazi.  Had SS tattoos on his shoulders.

Sounds like a real fun guy. Soon, he will be fungi.

 

6 hours ago, mlooney said:

Wagner supposedly had a plan that will take effect if and when Prigozhin was killed/died.  We may see march on Moscow II, the Revenge of the Mercenaries.

They took out #1 and #2. Odds are, the remaining organization will not sacrifice themselves to his memory. Mercenaries are notably out for their own self interests.

 

So, being in Putin's favor is a lot like being in the Orange Idiot's favor, but with more violence and death, rather than mere professional and reputation consequences.

 

[mlooney 3,417]

14 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Sounds like a real fun guy. Soon, he will be fungi.

 

/me Star and notation.

mlooney  I suspect that they will use a casket.  Reduces the chance of mushrooms growing from his body.

[mlooney 3,417]

14 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

They took out #1 and #2. Odds are, the remaining organization will not sacrifice themselves to his memory. Mercenaries are notably out for their own self interests.

The rest of the leadership, the ones that control day to day activities is still around.  Also Prigozhin was almost worshiped by some members of Wagner. A possible revenge march is within the realm of possibility.  

Then there is this, where they say “There’s a lot of talk right now about what the Wagner Group will do. We can tell you one thing. We are getting started, get ready for us.”

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1694463449764642926

[The Old Hack 2,448]

2 hours ago, mlooney said:

The rest of the leadership, the ones that control day to day activities is still around.  Also Prigozhin was almost worshiped by some members of Wagner. A possible revenge march is within the realm of possibility.  

I don't know. I have no personal experience with being a megalomaniacal genocidal dictator but this does not strike me as having been Putin's smartest possible move. It just seems like taunting the Law of Unintended Consequences.

[mlooney 3,417]

17 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

It just seems like taunting the Law of Unintended Consequences.

Laws not made by Putin don't count.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

29 minutes ago, mlooney said:

Laws not made by Putin don't count.

I dunno, the Law of Gravity seems to still carry some weight. "Oligarch Petrovitch, nice of you to drop by."

[mlooney 3,417]

3 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I dunno, the Law of Gravity seems to still carry some weight. "Oligarch Petrovitch, nice of you to drop by."

That works in his favor, so he allows it to work in Russia.  

[The Old Hack 2,448]

3 hours ago, mlooney said:

Laws not made by Putin don't count.

Ah, that must be why his three day special military operation is now on day 548, NATO is bigger and stronger than ever, the Russian military is an international laughingstock and Russia's standing in the world is in the toilet.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

Still worrisome, though.

How do you like our multi-ring circus? Booed for suggesting that The Dump be held accountable, one loony talking of invading Mexico, Obama was an amateur (isn't he old news anyway?), . . . if I were an actual Republican, I'd be weeping for my party.