Story Friday March 27 2020

[mlooney 3,594]

Here is.

Well ego are discussed and to no ones surprise Ellen thinks that Nanase doesn't have an ego problem. 

[Scotty 1,061]

29 minutes ago, mlooney said:

Here is.

Well ego are discussed and to no ones surprise Ellen thinks that Nanase doesn't have an ego problem. 

I never really thought Nanase had a ego problem, throughout the comic she'd shown a lot of selflessness and I never got the impression that she tried to flaunt her abilities for attention, even when she wasn't being discreet about using magic I don't think she was intentionally showing off. Any kind of attention she got, she probably enjoyed, but I doubt any of it was forced. I'd say an unhealthy ego would be going out of one's way to make someone notice you which I'd have to say was what Nanase was doing with Ashley earlier, but at least now Nanase's realized that before it got worse.

[Darth Fluffy 338]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I never really thought Nanase had a ego problem, throughout the comic she'd shown a lot of selflessness and I never got the impression that she tried to flaunt her abilities for attention, even when she wasn't being discreet about using magic I don't think she was intentionally showing off. Any kind of attention she got, she probably enjoyed, but I doubt any of it was forced. I'd say an unhealthy ego would be going out of one's way to make someone notice you which I'd have to say was what Nanase was doing with Ashley earlier, but at least now Nanase's realized that before it got worse.

I suspect Dan is revising her to make her not be a Mary Sue. Not saying she absolutely was one before, but some tendencies were there.

[Alwaysnewguy 26]

23 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I suspect Dan is revising her to make her not be a Mary Sue. Not saying she absolutely was one before, but some tendencies were there.

That term has been applied so broadly that it barely has meaning anymore. Dan's giving her some depth, which is good, but it's not going to stop some people from hurling the accusation.

[mlooney 3,594]

51 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I suspect Dan is revising her to make her not be a Mary Sue. Not saying she absolutely was one before, but some tendencies were there.

 

24 minutes ago, Alwaysnewguy said:

That term has been applied so broadly that it barely has meaning anymore. Dan's giving her some depth, which is good, but it's not going to stop some people from hurling the accusation.

Nanase isn't the Mary Sue of EGS, if one exists at all it is Grace.   I don't think that the term, as originally meant applies to any character in EGS, but as I said, Grace comes the closest. 

[hkmaly 490]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

3 hours ago, mlooney said:

Well ego are discussed and to no ones surprise Ellen thinks that Nanase doesn't have an ego problem. 

I never really thought Nanase had a ego problem, throughout the comic she'd shown a lot of selflessness and I never got the impression that she tried to flaunt her abilities for attention, even when she wasn't being discreet about using magic I don't think she was intentionally showing off. Any kind of attention she got, she probably enjoyed, but I doubt any of it was forced. I'd say an unhealthy ego would be going out of one's way to make someone notice you which I'd have to say was what Nanase was doing with Ashley earlier, but at least now Nanase's realized that before it got worse.

Yup, and I already discussed it in previous comics forum topic.

1 hour ago, Alwaysnewguy said:

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I suspect Dan is revising her to make her not be a Mary Sue. Not saying she absolutely was one before, but some tendencies were there.

Dan's giving her some depth, which is good

Also, like, while she started relatively complicated compared to some other characters (like Diane or Susan), those got recently serious depth upgrade, so it's probably her turn.

39 minutes ago, mlooney said:

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I suspect Dan is revising her to make her not be a Mary Sue. Not saying she absolutely was one before, but some tendencies were there.

1 hour ago, Alwaysnewguy said:

That term has been applied so broadly that it barely has meaning anymore. Dan's giving her some depth, which is good, but it's not going to stop some people from hurling the accusation.

Nanase isn't the Mary Sue of EGS, if one exists at all it is Grace.   I don't think that the term, as originally meant applies to any character in EGS, but as I said, Grace comes the closest. 

Well, if you are looking in the "correct" wrong way, you can see whole casts of Mary Sues in multiple comicses ... and, if you are looking for the self-insert element, then Tedd and Susan should count as well.

Personally, I think that no character can be Mary Sue by itself. The negativeness of Mary Sue is not in any trait she has, nor the combination: it's in what she does with the story.

(Also, I really liked the example where someone wrote deliberately overdone Mary Sue story  ... and then someone else rewrote it so it happened exactly same way, but additional explanation made everything totally normal.)

[ijuin 594]

I wouldn't say that Nanase is "tiny" in her default form-she's five feet four, which is less than two inches shorter than Ellen or Sarah--seriously, Ellen herself is so close to Nanase's height and measurements that they can and do share clothes. Obviously, she's tiny in fairy doll form. Now, Rhoda could be considered "tiny", as she's not only five feet flat at best, but also has a complex about it.

[Scotty 1,061]

2 minutes ago, ijuin said:

I wouldn't say that Nanase is "tiny" in her default form-she's five feet four, which is less than two inches shorter than Ellen or Sarah--seriously, Ellen herself is so close to Nanase's height and measurements that they can and do share clothes. Obviously, she's tiny in fairy doll form. Now, Rhoda could be considered "tiny", as she's not only five feet flat at best, but also has a complex about it.

Actually Ellen is also 5'4" and Sarah is 5'3.5".

Grace's half-squirrel form is 4'10" incidentally, normally she's also 5'4", I think someone once asked Dan what the deal was with most of the female cast being around 5'4"

[mlooney 3,594]

11 minutes ago, ijuin said:

I wouldn't say that Nanase is "tiny" in her default form-she's five feet four, which is less than two inches shorter than Ellen or Sarah--seriously, Ellen herself is so close to Nanase's height and measurements that they can and do share clothes. Obviously, she's tiny in fairy doll form. Now, Rhoda could be considered "tiny", as she's not only five feet flat at best, but also has a complex about it.

Her default form can't lift 4 times her weight unless she only weighs 50 pounds.  That has to be her fairy form that Ellen was talking about.

[Darth Fluffy 338]

1 hour ago, mlooney said:

 

Nanase isn't the Mary Sue of EGS, if one exists at all it is Grace.   I don't think that the term, as originally meant applies to any character in EGS, but as I said, Grace comes the closest. 

That is a good point. Grace has some interesting weaknesses, though. Which is what you're saying ...

[Darth Fluffy 338]

41 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Personally, I think that no character can be Mary Sue by itself. The negativeness of Mary Sue is not in any trait she has, nor the combination: it's in what she does with the story.

Also a good point.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,619]

Or was today's comic an exercise to see how many distinct facial reactions Ellen could express in a single page?

[Scotty 1,061]

1 minute ago, mlooney said:

Her default form can't lift 4 times her weight unless she only weighs 50 pounds.  That has to be her fairy form that Ellen was talking about.

When she was burnt out, Nanase was upset that she could just bench 160lbs in comparison to 200lbs before. At her size, I wouldn't be surprised if she weighed roughly 100lbs so at best, her magic was allowing her to lift twice her weight. So I'm inclined to agree that Ellen might have been referring to Nanase in fairy form. The commentary Dan later added to the comic where the fairy doll is introduced states that the fairy should be 1:6 scale or 10.67 inches tall so I wanna say she'd a pound maybe less, I dunno the actual math and searching google kept giving me BMI charts and a headache. Anyway, it probably wouldn't be too hard to believe her fairy avatar could lift about 4lbs. Though we do know that her Fae punch spell hits as if Nanase was in her own body throwing the punch.  Any guesses where Nanase might hit on this scale? I'd probably say somewhere in Bear, but then she did destroy a punching bag, so maybe Bull.

[mlooney 3,594]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

When she was burnt out, Nanase was upset that she could just bench 160lbs in comparison to 200lbs before. At her size, I wouldn't be surprised if she weighed roughly 100lbs so at best, her magic was allowing her to lift twice her weight.

That is what I was basing the only weigh 50 lbs on.  And Ellen did say 4 times her weight, not twice her weight.

 

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Any guesses where Nanase might hit on this scale? I'd probably say somewhere in Bear, but then she did destroy a punching bag, so maybe Bull.

Bull or bear is where I would put her.

 

[hkmaly 490]

4 hours ago, mlooney said:

4 hours ago, ijuin said:

I wouldn't say that Nanase is "tiny" in her default form-she's five feet four, which is less than two inches shorter than Ellen or Sarah--seriously, Ellen herself is so close to Nanase's height and measurements that they can and do share clothes. Obviously, she's tiny in fairy doll form. Now, Rhoda could be considered "tiny", as she's not only five feet flat at best, but also has a complex about it.

Her default form can't lift 4 times her weight unless she only weighs 50 pounds.  That has to be her fairy form that Ellen was talking about.

Maybe she got stronger meanwhile?

Not that Nanase wouldn't be able to stay on scale and make it say 50 pounds.

3 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Or was today's comic an exercise to see how many distinct facial reactions Ellen could express in a single page?

Maybe, but I don't think six is that many ... well, not every exercise is record-breaking.

2 hours ago, mlooney said:

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

Any guesses where Nanase might hit on this scale? I'd probably say somewhere in Bear, but then she did destroy a punching bag, so maybe Bull.

Bull or bear is where I would put her.

Bull probably. Note that she's probably not destroying punching bags always, just when ... "focused". Maybe if she would be benchpressing in THAT state she would do more.

 

[mlooney 3,594]

6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Maybe she got stronger meanwhile?

I would think that would have some notice in the comic aside from this reference.

 

6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Not that Nanase wouldn't be able to stay on scale and make it say 50 pounds.

Well, maybe.  Depends on how her flight works.

 

6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Bull probably. Note that she's probably not destroying punching bags always, just when ... "focused". Maybe if she would be benchpressing in THAT state she would do more.

 

That is a possibility

I still think, based on "tiny" that the 4 times your weight thing is based on her fairy form.

.

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, mlooney said:

That is what I was basing the only weigh 50 lbs on.  And Ellen did say 4 times her weight, not twice her weight.

That's why I said I agreed with you. I think the only character capable of lifting at least 4 times her weight would be Grace and she's stated she could lift a car, granted she has to morph into her omega form and buff herself up, but I wouldn't be surprised if she could use her telekinesis to assist.

[mlooney 3,594]

16 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I think the only character capable of lifting at least 4 times her weight would be Grace and she's stated she could lift a car, granted she has to morph into her omega form and buff herself up,

She just said she could lift a car, she didn't say she had to morph herself to do it.  Not that big of a stretch to say she had to however.

[Scotty 1,061]

Just now, mlooney said:

She just said she could lift a car, she didn't say she had to morph herself to do it.  Not that big of a stretch to say she had to however.

I was basing on what Grace told Charlotte.

[mlooney 3,594]

3 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I was basing on what Grace told Charlotte.

Good point.  I had forgotten about the "while like this" bit.

[ChronosCat 158]

12 hours ago, mlooney said:

Nanase isn't the Mary Sue of EGS, if one exists at all it is Grace.   I don't think that the term, as originally meant applies to any character in EGS, but as I said, Grace comes the closest. 

The first definition I heard (which I've always understood to be the first definition; at any rate it was over 15 years ago, immediately following the first time I heard the term "Mary Sue" at all) included a part about the character stealing the spotlight from the series' true main characters. Unless one thinks one can determine better than the author who the story's main characters should be, this by definition limits Mary Sues to fanfiction.

While the more modern definitions I've heard leave that part out, I think it does illustrate one of the big problems with how the term tends to be used: often reviewers and "fans" use the term when they think a female character is getting more attention than the male characters they think the author should be focusing on.

[mlooney 3,594]

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

While the more modern definitions I've heard leave that part out, I think it does illustrate one of the big problems with how the term tends to be used: often reviewers and "fans" use the term when they think a female character is getting more attention than the male characters they think the author should be focusing on.

I've always taken it to be a person, granted normally female, that has more power of one sort or another than the rest of the characters in the work, which is why I said if there is a Mary Sue in EGS it's Grace, not Nanase.   I don't personally believe that there is a Mary Sue in EGS, but the one character that does have the largest chance of being that would be Grace or pre-reset Pandora.

[hkmaly 490]

On 3/28/2020 at 1:16 PM, mlooney said:

On 3/28/2020 at 6:43 AM, hkmaly said:

Maybe she got stronger meanwhile?

I would think that would have some notice in the comic aside from this reference.

It would make more sense.

On 3/28/2020 at 1:16 PM, mlooney said:

On 3/28/2020 at 6:43 AM, hkmaly said:

Not that Nanase wouldn't be able to stay on scale and make it say 50 pounds.

Well, maybe.  Depends on how her flight works.

Not really. "Making scale say 50 pounds" is quite open task which can be done in different ways depending on how her flight works.

On 3/28/2020 at 1:16 PM, mlooney said:

I still think, based on "tiny" that the 4 times your weight thing is based on her fairy form.

Thing is, I expect the fairy can light much more than just 4 times her weight.

On 3/28/2020 at 2:06 PM, Scotty said:

On 3/28/2020 at 4:27 AM, mlooney said:

That is what I was basing the only weigh 50 lbs on.  And Ellen did say 4 times her weight, not twice her weight.

That's why I said I agreed with you. I think the only character capable of lifting at least 4 times her weight would be Grace and she's stated she could lift a car, granted she has to morph into her omega form and buff herself up, but I wouldn't be surprised if she could use her telekinesis to assist.

I wouldn't be surprised if she would be unable to NOT use her telekinesis to assist, however she may also be unable to NOT morph - I mean, she would morph instinctively while lifting similarly how she instinctively morphed into omega form first time.

The real question is: since Grace can actually gain mass when morphing, how much would she weight in the form in which she can lift a car?

On 3/28/2020 at 2:44 PM, ChronosCat said:

On 3/28/2020 at 1:03 AM, mlooney said:

Nanase isn't the Mary Sue of EGS, if one exists at all it is Grace.   I don't think that the term, as originally meant applies to any character in EGS, but as I said, Grace comes the closest. 

The first definition I heard (which I've always understood to be the first definition; at any rate it was over 15 years ago, immediately following the first time I heard the term "Mary Sue" at all) included a part about the character stealing the spotlight from the series' true main characters. Unless one thinks one can determine better than the author who the story's main characters should be, this by definition limits Mary Sues to fanfiction.

Not completely. Obviously, single story with single author would mean that author determines who's main character, but in series, different episodes can and often do have different authors and even if it's just single author, some consistency is to be expected. You can then say someone is Mary Sues when stealing the spotlight from main characters as established in previous episodes in unrealistically quick way.

On 3/28/2020 at 2:44 PM, ChronosCat said:

While the more modern definitions I've heard leave that part out, I think it does illustrate one of the big problems with how the term tends to be used: often reviewers and "fans" use the term when they think a female character is getting more attention than the male characters they think the author should be focusing on.

While this specific gender combination might be more common than it should, I don't think the feeling author should be focusing on someone else is limited to it.

On 3/28/2020 at 4:04 PM, mlooney said:

I've always taken it to be a person, granted normally female, that has more power of one sort or another than the rest of the characters in the work, which is why I said if there is a Mary Sue in EGS it's Grace, not Nanase.   I don't personally believe that there is a Mary Sue in EGS, but the one character that does have the largest chance of being that would be Grace or pre-reset Pandora.

Normally female ... or Wesley Crusher

(Who, by the way, is good example of author's character stealing the spotlight from previously established main characters in unrealistic way. There ARE characters from which you would expect such capability - like Data doesn't really surprise in Brothers - but Wesley has no objective in-story reason to be that good.)

Nanase was shown as more powerful magic user than everyone else quite soon after she appeared, but yes, Grace shown quite a lot of power from start and in some way, other characters then played catch-up with her, only recently getting to similar level (like Elliot with his superhero spell ... ok, that's not THAT recently anymore ...).

Note however that pre-reset Pandora specifically can't really be Mary Sue because she's not "full-time" character. Any complain about her power would lead in direction of labeling her Deus-ex-machina, not Mary Sue. Note that I don't think she IS one - she was established quite well in advance and while she never before used this much power, the possibility was foreshadowed quite obviously at least in hindsight if not directly - but she's still much closer to that than to Mary Sue.

[Alwaysnewguy 26]

On 3/27/2020 at 5:43 PM, hkmaly said:

Personally, I think that no character can be Mary Sue by itself. The negativeness of Mary Sue is not in any trait she has, nor the combination: it's in what she does with the story.

Yep. Also, here's a fun tidbit. Journey to the West, one of the great novels of ancient china and inspiration for more manga, anime, movies, books, etc. than you can count. The first several chapters are dedicated to the origin story of Sun Wukong (known as Sun Goku in Japan) and how he single-handedly beat up all the armies of the underworld and heaven, became immortal several thousand times over, acquired a whole rpg supplement's worth of magical powers and equipment,  and was basically only stopped when the author's personal version of God stepped in. And yet he also manages to be one of the most beloved characters in not just the story, but all classic literature. Because the character and the story around him were well-written, the ridiculously op, and pretty selfish and petty, character actually comes of as likable, and the story becomes beloved. Write well, and terrible characters become great ones.

[Darth Fluffy 338]

On 3/29/2020 at 9:11 PM, hkmaly said:

Normally female ... or Wesley Crusher

The term for the male version is Marty Stu, a play on Mary Sue.

 

Note however that pre-reset Pandora specifically can't really be Mary Sue because she's not "full-time" character. Any complain about her power would lead in direction of labeling her Deus-ex-machina, not Mary Sue. Note that I don't think she IS one - she was established quite well in advance and while she never before used this much power, the possibility was foreshadowed quite obviously at least in hindsight if not directly - but she's still much closer to that than to Mary Sue.

She has serious flaws as well, and vulnerabilities.