Story, Wednesday September 21, 2016

[Vorlonagent 442]

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

This is just excuse. Children are nowhere near as stupid as producers of children "entertainment" claim to be.

Weren't that college-age crowd the same group who read comics before? They just refused to end enjoying it after they aged out of target group. (Which is another reason why you shouldn't rely on children being stupid: nostalgia have limits.)

If that was the attitude of the times, and we're talking the 60s and 70s here, that was the attitude of the times.   Doesn't matter if it the attitude was incorrect by 2016 standards.

 

[hkmaly 490]

34 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

This is just excuse. Children are nowhere near as stupid as producers of children "entertainment" claim to be.

Weren't that college-age crowd the same group who read comics before? They just refused to end enjoying it after they aged out of target group. (Which is another reason why you shouldn't rely on children being stupid: nostalgia have limits.)

If that was the attitude of the times, and we're talking the 60s and 70s here, that was the attitude of the times.   Doesn't matter if it the attitude was incorrect by 2016 standards.

Writers in 60s and 70s might be excused by that, but I though we are talking about, to quote,

On 09/27/2016 at 1:53 AM, Vorlonagent said:

He also introduced the idea of Kryptonian powers phasing as Clark/Kel matured.  Successive writers quietly dropped the first but kept the second. 

which means after 1986, possibly even later.

Also, generally, if you do something HUGE and far-reaching to

23 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Draining the continuity swamp and resetting things to something approaching sense (plus integrating characters from recently-bought Charleton Comics) may well have been the reason for Crisis to begin with.

... then you should be extra careful to not repeat the same mistakes.

Did Supergirl and Flash died for nothing? Oh wait, Flash was later resurrected.

[Vorlonagent 442]

1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Writers in 60s and 70s might be excused by that, but I though we are talking about, to quote,

which means after 1986, possibly even later.

Also, generally, if you do something HUGE and far-reaching to

... then you should be extra careful to not repeat the same mistakes.

Did Supergirl and Flash died for nothing? Oh wait, Flash was later resurrected.

I speak to what I know.  I do not know why post-Crisis writers dropped the psionic Superman idea.  I suspect part of it had to do with the ham-handed way Byrne tried to set it and other background continuity in stone during his run on Superman.  If you're a high handed, arrogant jerk, your co-workers aren't necessarily impressed with your work in a good way.  Byrne tried to have the last word in several longstanding fan arguments over Superman, such as but not limited to, the nature of Kryptonian powers.  I don't think later writers ought be blamed for quietly shrugging him off.

I also suspect that "heat vision" is more interesting to write and read than "telekinetic agitation of molecules" even if the latter makes more literal sense.  DC is, after all, in the business of selling comics and the presence of superpowers of themselves represent a serious deviation from reality, so why pick nits? 

I could be biased because I tend to think this way myself.  I tend to prefer "reality lite" rather than a slavish adherence to it.  I was also one of those who found Byrne as expressed through his writing to be an arrogant jerk.  He had no shortage of fans, I should add.  I just wasn't one of them.  Full disclosure: His artwork on the X-Men 110s, 120s and 130s was absolutely awesome.  His embellishments to Chris Cleremont's writing did get Phoenix killed and came very close to handing the same fate to Wolverine, however.

Jumping back to DC, post-Crisis was a huge continuity and realism improvement over pre-Crisis.  There's really no way to deny this.  I think you're being unfair for dumping on it for not perfectly aligning in 1986 to 2016 sensibilities.  DC had another crisis and universe reset only a handful of years ago.  You can pass judgement on that if you like, though I suspect you'll find heat vision is still more entertaining to write and read than telekinetic agitation of molecules.

I'm pretty sure Supergirl didn't stay dead very long after the Crisis either.  Only the Psycho-Pirate could give you the details, I suppose. 

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

I speak to what I know.  I do not know why post-Crisis writers dropped the psionic Superman idea.  I suspect part of it had to do with the ham-handed way Byrne tried to set it and other background continuity in stone during his run on Superman.  If you're a high handed, arrogant jerk, your co-workers aren't necessarily impressed with your work in a good way.  Byrne tried to have the last word in several longstanding fan arguments over Superman, such as but not limited to, the nature of Kryptonian powers.  I don't think later writers ought be blamed for quietly shrugging him off.

You still knows more that I do.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

I also suspect that "heat vision" is more interesting to write and read than "telekinetic agitation of molecules" even if the latter makes more literal sense.

Well, they don't need to repeat the technical name every time.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

DC is, after all, in the business of selling comics and the presence of superpowers of themselves represent a serious deviation from reality, so why pick nits? 

Not only I can pick nits (I like nitpicking, I own The Nitpicker's Guide for Next Generation Trekkers), I can do something which DC actually wouldn't like: I won't be reading their comics and instead enjoy comics which DO realize that even superpowers can be done in more consistent way, like Grrrl power.

(I will still watch the movies. Well, some of them. Constantine was great.)

There is difference between "not based on reality" and "there is so many exceptions in the way physics works it wouldn't be possible to actually make laws for it".

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

His embellishments to Chris Cleremont's writing did get Phoenix killed

I have very mixed feelings about this. I like Phoenix, but I also realize she was way OP for the setting. They tried to make bigger setting, but ... I don't think it went well.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

DC had another crisis and universe reset only a handful of years ago. 

That actually CONFIRMS what I was saying about "should be extra careful to not repeat the same mistakes".

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Only the Psycho-Pirate could give you the details, I suppose.

Why not James Highwater or anyone else wearing Medusa Mask?

( ... just read the wiki, I don't really know the details, but ...)

 

[Vorlonagent 442]

16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Well, they don't need to repeat the technical name every time.

It's not the technical name.  It's the potential for interesting stories and moments of awesome.

16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Not only I can pick nits (I like nitpicking, I own The Nitpicker's Guide for Next Generation Trekkers), I can do something which DC actually wouldn't like: I won't be reading their comics and instead enjoy comics which DO realize that even superpowers can be done in more consistent way, like Grrrl power.

 

(I will still watch the movies. Well, some of them. Constantine was great.

You should read some of DC's John Constantine comics some time, especially the very first late-80s Jamie Delano issues if you can find them.  I'm not a fan of horror but these were something I couldn't stop reading either.

I read and like Grrl Power also.  I tend to think Dave errs on the side of too much explanation, but then I would, I suppose. 

16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

There is difference between "not based on reality" and "there is so many exceptions in the way physics works it wouldn't be possible to actually make laws for it".

I look at it as an internal consistency thing, which may or may not be the same thing you're talking about.  I'm not worried about the number of rules the system establishes or how they may conflict with the Real World as long as a good-faith effort is made to be true to them.

I have my limits too, for how far a universe can depart reality before it ceases to be interesting to me.  I will nitpick continuity errors or particularly bad violations of common sense, which actually make me pretty nit-picky myself. 

16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I have very mixed feelings about this. I like Phoenix, but I also realize she was way OP for the setting. They tried to make bigger setting, but ... I don't think it went well.

It's strange.  In the pre-crisis 80s Marvel set a very constrained setting for themselves.  Their heroes were "super" but had very hard limits set on how powerful they were on an absolute scale.  The Earth-1 Superman could take a morning jog around the local galactic spiral arm before heading to work.  With Phoenix, especially Dark Phoenix, Marvel tried to reach for the sort of transcendence that DC enjoyed, while DC's post-Crisis heroes came out with very Marvel-like upper limits on their powers. 

If John Byrne hadn't penciled in a planet of aparagus-people orbiting the star Dark Phoenix drove to supernova (the planet was NOT in Chris Cleremont's script), who knows what might have happened?  But he did and Phoenix' fate was sealed by order of Marvel's Editor in Chief.  She had to die.

16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

That actually CONFIRMS what I was saying about "should be extra careful to not repeat the same mistakes".

I don't think so.  After...what?  25, 26 years at the time?...the DC Universe just needed a good defragging is all.  And they had another small comics company's line to integrate.  I think DC also wanted to make some politically correct changes to their universe as well.

16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Why not James Highwater or anyone else wearing Medusa Mask?

( ... just read the wiki, I don't really know the details, but ...)

The Psycho Pirate survived the Crisis remembering everything that was and everything that happened.  That's why the he was in a mental institution.  The enormity of it all broke his mind.

[hkmaly 490]

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

You should read some of DC's John Constantine comics some time, especially the very first late-80s Jamie Delano issues if you can find them.

... Grrrl Power is not only comics I'm reading, so I'm not going to be searching too hard ... but I can add it to list.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I look at it as an internal consistency thing, which may or may not be the same thing you're talking about.

Internal consistency is the basis, but there are other things I consider important. (One of them is basic logic.)

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I'm not worried about the number of rules the system establishes or how they may conflict with the Real World as long as a good-faith effort is made to be true to them.

I do. The number of rules should be at least countable, preferably finite.

In case of superheroes, for example, there shouldn't be special rule for every hero. Obviously, we are not gonna get complete list, but it should be obvious that there may be multiple heroes with same abilities working by same rules. There may be several ways how for example person can fly, but not special rule for every superhero with flying.

And about the "real world" ... real world is just the best described example. There may be universe with infinite speed of light. Or with flat world. On turtle. But ... if the universe looks as our, there are planets and stars ... and there is technology which seem to match ours ... it means there must be lot of rules similar if not identical to our world. Because most of rules in world like ours works at scale of particles (or BELOW that) and even small difference would result in very different word.

Magic isn't problem: we can assume that magic puts new parts in like all rules which are +0 or *1 if there is no magic involved. But if Superman is holding battleship by bow, either there is some field which extends from him to whole ship, or the ship can be held by bow if you put some sort of crane there instead of Superman, and no "super" rules are involved.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I have my limits too, for how far a universe can depart reality before it ceases to be interesting to me.  I will nitpick continuity errors or particularly bad violations of common sense, which actually make me pretty nit-picky myself. 

Actually, the universe can get VERY far from reality. The mentioned cartoons, for example. Or dreams. Or worlds like Wonderland.

The worst examples, the worlds which are least interesting, are the MIXED ones. Where everything seems very realistic until something happens completely illogically and without any explanation, and noone in-universe considers it weird.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

The Earth-1 Superman could take a morning jog around the local galactic spiral arm before heading to work. 

... yeah ... nothing in Superman origin suggest FTL abilities. Also, how did he avoided all red suns?

It makes sense if Star Power, Phoenix or Silver Surfer have abilities like this, but where Superman got them? Also, how the hell can Batman breathe in space?

So, in fact, Marvel's attempt might still make more sense than Pre-crisis DC.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

If John Byrne hadn't penciled in a planet of aparagus-people orbiting the star Dark Phoenix drove to supernova (the planet was NOT in Chris Cleremont's script), who knows what might have happened?  But he did and Phoenix' fate was sealed by order of Marvel's Editor in Chief.  She had to die.

... that's actually still spoiler to me

But nevermind, I'm unlikely to ever read more about Dark Phoenix. I've got condensed version from XMen cartoon and few non-dark Phoenix issues. (Not counting movies - Phoenix there wasn't actual cosmic entity.) And I already read about her dieing, just not how.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I don't think so.  After...what?  25, 26 years at the time?...the DC Universe just needed a good defragging is all

It was JUST 25 years. I would expect it will last longer.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I think DC also wanted to make some politically correct changes to their universe as well.

... that's not going to help them in my evaluation Political correctness went WAY overboard, so (retroactive) changes in its name are suspicious to me. (Although it's just suspicion. It MAY surprisingly end up well.)

 

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

Is the Dark Phoenix story involving Darkseid and the Teen Titans canon in any continuity?

 

[ijuin 572]

Darkseid and Teen Titans are DC. Dark Phoenix is Marvel.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

7 hours ago, ijuin said:

Darkseid and Teen Titans are DC. Dark Phoenix is Marvel.

It happened in a licensed publication.

If it is canon, then Beast Boy and Wolverine may be related.

[ijuin 572]

I have no idea as to the canonicity of crossover stories between companies.

[Vorlonagent 442]

17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... Grrrl Power is not only comics I'm reading, so I'm not going to be searching too hard ... but I can add it to list.

These are vintage comic books, just in case I was not clear...

17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I do. The number of rules should be at least countable, preferably finite.

In case of superheroes, for example, there shouldn't be special rule for every hero. Obviously, we are not gonna get complete list, but it should be obvious that there may be multiple heroes with same abilities working by same rules. There may be several ways how for example person can fly, but not special rule for every superhero with flying.

And about the "real world" ... real world is just the best described example. There may be universe with infinite speed of light. Or with flat world. On turtle. But ... if the universe looks as our, there are planets and stars ... and there is technology which seem to match ours ... it means there must be lot of rules similar if not identical to our world. Because most of rules in world like ours works at scale of particles (or BELOW that) and even small difference would result in very different word.

Magic isn't problem: we can assume that magic puts new parts in like all rules which are +0 or *1 if there is no magic involved. But if Superman is holding battleship by bow, either there is some field which extends from him to whole ship, or the ship can be held by bow if you put some sort of crane there instead of Superman, and no "super" rules are involved.

Every hero and villain is unique in some way and has some unique rules that govern how they operate.  That's just a given of the industry.

Another given of the industry is that the universe and characters have to be something we can relate to.

Superheroes exist in imagination space, not reality.
 

17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Actually, the universe can get VERY far from reality. The mentioned cartoons, for example. Or dreams. Or worlds like Wonderland.

The worst examples, the worlds which are least interesting, are the MIXED ones. Where everything seems very realistic until something happens completely illogically and without any explanation, and noone in-universe considers it weird.

...or comics.  They're just a different point along the spectrum from dreams to perceptive reality.  A moving point, in fact.

18 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... yeah ... nothing in Superman origin suggest FTL abilities. Also, how did he avoided all red suns?

It makes sense if Star Power, Phoenix or Silver Surfer have abilities like this, but where Superman got them? Also, how the hell can Batman breathe in space?

So, in fact, Marvel's attempt might still make more sense than Pre-crisis DC.

For certain values of "sense", sure.  Like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. 

The Earth-1 Superman was a being in the cosmic power range, same as the Surfer, Phoenix, etc.  He just was.  Odds are good that he could outpower either of them if nobody knew about his innumerable weaknesses.  Remember: If I say "Earth-1 Superman" I mean pre-Crisis 60s - early 80s Superman.  The limits to his powers were in the collective imagination of his writers.

And batman?  He only goes to space in a Batship...

18 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... that's actually still spoiler to me

But nevermind, I'm unlikely to ever read more about Dark Phoenix. I've got condensed version from XMen cartoon and few non-dark Phoenix issues. (Not counting movies - Phoenix there wasn't actual cosmic entity.) And I already read about her dieing, just not how.

I take no responsibility for 30+ year-old spoilers.  Statute of limitations has long since passed. 

You probably don't want to delve too deeply into Dark Phoenix anyway.  Phoenix' inception and death have been retconned, retconned again and re-re-retconned.  The whole thing is a huge tangle that I never bothered to make sense of myself, but it boiled down to looking for sneaky ways of getting Jean Gray back and the inevitable temptation to play further with the story once the door was open. 

18 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It was JUST 25 years. I would expect it will last longer.

When was the last time you played "telephone"?  Get a bunch of people in a circle and whisper a simple phrase to one of them and let it go around the circle and see what you get back. (Hint: it won't be what you started with).  It's the same thing when you have a huge universe of comics characters and a huge number of writers each needing to fill out a comic every month.  To make things more fun, writers usually stay for at most a year or two before moving on (sometimes much less).  A comic book could have 15, 20, even 30 writers working on it over 25 years, each with a slightly different take on the character(s).  A few writers have epic runs on comics and we tend to remember them, but they aren't the only ones by a long shot and it all builds up.
 

18 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... that's not going to help them in my evaluation Political correctness went WAY overboard, so (retroactive) changes in its name are suspicious to me. (Although it's just suspicion. It MAY surprisingly end up well.)

I tend to agree if ts PC for PC's sake. 

There are things you can do for next to nothing.  DC could gain a bit of ethnic diversity just by making Wonder Woman greek instead of caucasian.  By rights she ought be greek anyway, considering the mythos she's up to her tiara in,  Yet for all the shallow, silly changes DC has put the poor girl through recently, the one thing she's stayed is lilly-white.

[hkmaly 490]

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Every hero and villain is unique in some way and has some unique rules that govern how they operate.  That's just a given of the industry.

All Kryptonians have more or less same abilities. Sure, Superman is appearing most often, but he's not COMPLETELY alone. The X-Gene or X-Factor all Homo superior (including all X-Mens) possess suggests there are common rules for them. Weapon X project tries to replicate Wolverine and almost succeed with X-23.

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

...or comics.

Comics is medium. You can have story in form of book, comics, movie, theatre performance ... while all have some specifics, it is mostly orthogonal to genre and/or the amount of "realism".

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

And batman?  He only goes to space in a Batship...

See tvtropes. Also this shortpacked strip.

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

You probably don't want to delve too deeply into Dark Phoenix anyway.  Phoenix' inception and death have been retconned, retconned again and re-re-retconned.  The whole thing is a huge tangle that I never bothered to make sense of myself, but it boiled down to looking for sneaky ways of getting Jean Gray back and the inevitable temptation to play further with the story once the door was open. 

That is NOT spoiler to me.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

22 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It was JUST 25 years. I would expect it will last longer.

When was the last time you played "telephone"?  Get a bunch of people in a circle and whisper a simple phrase to one of them and let it go around the circle and see what you get back. (Hint: it won't be what you started with).  It's the same thing when you have a huge universe of comics characters and a huge number of writers each needing to fill out a comic every month.  To make things more fun, writers usually stay for at most a year or two before moving on (sometimes much less).  A comic book could have 15, 20, even 30 writers working on it over 25 years, each with a slightly different take on the character(s).  A few writers have epic runs on comics and we tend to remember them, but they aren't the only ones by a long shot and it all builds up.

Hmmmm ... are you saying webcomics writers actually staying multiple years with their comics is another reason why their stories tend to be better?

Of course, generally a year of "professional" comics means more pages than multiple years of webcomics, but using characters you don't understand with history you don't know can have negative effect quickly.

But yes, I'm aware that expecting that writer will actually spend time reading about the character before writing about them is naive ...

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I tend to agree if ts PC for PC's sake. 

There are things you can do for next to nothing.  DC could gain a bit of ethnic diversity just by making Wonder Woman greek instead of caucasian.  By rights she ought be greek anyway, considering the mythos she's up to her tiara in,  Yet for all the shallow, silly changes DC has put the poor girl through recently, the one thing she's stayed is lilly-white.

That too, but retroactive changes are generally dangerous.

But ... yes. Seriously. The character ethnicity matching their backstory is more important than even the continuity. Thor IS Nordic, but Jesus is Jewish (despite most illustrations) and yes, amazons including Wonder Woman should be greek.

Nowadays, people travel and you can find lot of ethnicities far from where they came from (including people like Ashley), but you still need to pay attention to it. And for heroes whose backstory goes centuries or longer back, your options are seriously limited.

[Vorlonagent 442]

30 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

All Kryptonians have more or less same abilities. Sure, Superman is appearing most often, but he's not COMPLETELY alone. The X-Gene or X-Factor all Homo superior (including all X-Mens) possess suggests there are common rules for them. Weapon X project tries to replicate Wolverine and almost succeed with X-23.

Agreed, especially with the Kryptonian powerset.  It's a matter of degree to some extent.  Superman is the archetypal Kyrptonian.  Everybody else is a "krypttonian...something".  Even Kryptonian animals got the full makeover, often complete with uplift to sentience.  Certainly Krypto, Superboy/Superman's dog had thought bubbles in the Earth-1 days.  It's kind of dangerous and scary to think of what an unmodified earth dog or cat would be like suddenly blessed with Kryptonian grades of strength and speed.

Mutants, can go a bit farther afield.  Both Phoenix and Storm fly but they don't do it the same way.  Nor do Wolverine and Deadpool have quite the same healing abilities.

40 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

See tvtropes. Also this shortpacked strip.

Shortpacked is not DC canon, nor meant to be.   It can be ignored for the one-off joke it obviously is.  If you read the TVTropes listing under "comic books" you'll Batman was not breathing in space but training to survive in a vacuum.

46 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Hmmmm ... are you saying webcomics writers actually staying multiple years with their comics is another reason why their stories tend to be better?

Of course, generally a year of "professional" comics means more pages than multiple years of webcomics, but using characters you don't understand with history you don't know can have negative effect quickly.

But yes, I'm aware that expecting that writer will actually spend time reading about the character before writing about them is naive ...

I'm sure me researching the characters I'm about to write is considered a "nice to have"...

The thing about a webcomics is the writer usually not just a continuing writer, they're the creator(s).  That's usually a good thing through the relationship between creator and creation does occasionally go south (*cough*Star Wars*cough*).   A creator hits the ground running with a familiarity with the characters and setting that would take several years of writing a comics character to build up.  At least.  So yeah definite advantage there. 

Have you read any webcomics that have changed writers?  The one example I can think of is Exiern. It has changed writers twice now and it has issues similar what we see with print comic books changing writers.  Including its ongoing continuity getting pretty strained.  (as an aside, I find myself a bit annoyed the comic at the moment.  I haven't dropped it yet but it is on probation)

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

That too, but retroactive changes are generally dangerous.

But ... yes. Seriously. The character ethnicity matching their backstory is more important than even the continuity. Thor IS Nordic, but Jesus is Jewish (despite most illustrations) and yes, amazons including Wonder Woman should be greek.

Nowadays, people travel and you can find lot of ethnicities far from where they came from (including people like Ashley), but you still need to pay attention to it. And for heroes whose backstory goes centuries or longer back, your options are seriously limited.

Remember, DC just rebuilt their universe.  It wouldn't be a retcon if Wonder Woman was greek coming out of the world's bootup cycle.  Instead they obsessed over her costume (Did you ever see the awful pantsuit they wanted to give her?     So very bland...)

[hkmaly 490]

44 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Mutants, can go a bit farther afield.  Both Phoenix and Storm fly but they don't do it the same way.  Nor do Wolverine and Deadpool have quite the same healing abilities.

Phoenix is not just mutant. Yes, both Jean Grey and Storm fly and yes, they are flying differently. But that's allowed. It's still implied that anyone with telekinesis could fly the same way as Jean Grey and anyone with weather control can fly the same way as Storm, and we can assume that in those millions of mutants there are plenty of duplicities, even if we don't see them so often.

54 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

See tvtropes. Also this shortpacked strip.

Shortpacked is not DC canon, nor meant to be.   It can be ignored for the one-off joke it obviously is.  If you read the TVTropes listing under "comic books" you'll Batman was not breathing in space but training to survive in a vacuum.

Of course shortpacked is not DC canon, but I assumed it references DC canon, which tvtropes sort of confirms, although it explains in the spoiler that it wasn't THAT bad.

59 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

The thing about a webcomics is the writer usually not just a continuing writer, they're the creator(s).  That's usually a good thing through the relationship between creator and creation does occasionally go south (*cough*Star Wars*cough*).   A creator hits the ground running with a familiarity with the characters and setting that would take several years of writing a comics character to build up.  At least.  So yeah definite advantage there. 

Yes.

57 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Have you read any webcomics that have changed writers?  The one example I can think of is Exiern. It has changed writers twice now and it has issues similar what we see with print comic books changing writers.  Including its ongoing continuity getting pretty strained.  (as an aside, I find myself a bit annoyed the comic at the moment.  I haven't dropped it yet but it is on probation)

No, or at least I'm not aware of it. But considering it's unlikely to be common ... and even more unlikely to go without obvious problems ...

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Remember, DC just rebuilt their universe.

True ; that's supposed to allow LOT of changes.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Instead they obsessed over her costume (Did you ever see the awful pantsuit they wanted to give her?     So very bland...)

Uhhh ... considering I'm not following DC's reboots that closely, I'm not sure which pantsuit you speak about. The Xena-colored one from Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice ? I guess bright colors got out of style.

It's funny how costume often "survives" more than the characters, despite the fact that normal people can change costume without any problems.

 

[Vorlonagent 442]

On 10/1/2016 at 6:56 PM, hkmaly said:

Phoenix is not just mutant. Yes, both Jean Grey and Storm fly and yes, they are flying differently. But that's allowed. It's still implied that anyone with telekinesis could fly the same way as Jean Grey and anyone with weather control can fly the same way as Storm, and we can assume that in those millions of mutants there are plenty of duplicities, even if we don't see them so often.

That's my point.  Phoenix' "Phoenix Force" backed mutant powers apply unique rules to her powers that nobody else gets.  Not another telepath/telekinetic, certainly not Storm.  There would be commonalities between a Phoenix-Force-backed telepath/telekinetic mutant and one that doesn't have that extra kick, sure.  The question then becomes but what exceptions and differences does the addition of the Phoenix-Force make?  The other telepath/telekinetic might have rules just for them as well. 

Given that several characters have at various times claimed the "Phoenix" name and/or tapped into the Phoenix Force, you can probably treat them as using a common rule set among that group.  You could treat them like gamma ray transformations (Hulk, etc.) or DC's "Speed Force" Speedsters or those with Kryptonian physiology. 

On 10/1/2016 at 6:56 PM, hkmaly said:

Of course shortpacked is not DC canon, but I assumed it references DC canon, which tvtropes sort of confirms, although it explains in the spoiler that it wasn't THAT bad.

To my mind, Canon doesn't work second-hand.  You know what happens when you assume, right? 

For me to accept Shortpacked as referencing DC continuity, they need to actually reference continuity.  Especially working with something obviously over the top on its own like the "I'm Batman" joke/meme.  Then you quote that, not Shortpacked, except to add an amusing note to the conversation.  It's kind of a "pictures or it didn't happen" thing.

On 10/1/2016 at 6:56 PM, hkmaly said:

No, or at least I'm not aware of it. But considering it's unlikely to be common ... and even more unlikely to go without obvious problems ..

Not with webcomics.  They usually just get abandoned by the creator(s).  Exiern was sold by its creator to a third party, who then was free to bring in writers/artists as needed, which is exactly why it works so well as an analogue to print comic books.  It's really rare but can't be the only webcomic that this has happened to.

On 10/1/2016 at 6:56 PM, hkmaly said:

True ; that's supposed to allow LOT of changes.

Uhhh ... considering I'm not following DC's reboots that closely, I'm not sure which pantsuit you speak about. The Xena-colored one from Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice ? I guess bright colors got out of style.

DC's first continuity shift occurred when the Comics Code Authority allowed them to start up their heroes again, around 1960.  They built a new continuity Where Green Lantern had a science-based origin borrowed from the Lensmen books instead of his original sort-of magic origin.  The guy with the ring was renamed Hal Jordan instead of Alan Scott.  This was where the Flash transitioned to Barry Allen from Jay Garrick. 

It was also here where Earth's premiere superhero team was renamed the Justice League instead of the Justice Society.  As time went on, there was eventually a crossover between the Justice League and the Justice Society.   The new Justice League world became known as Earth-1 and the Justice Society was Earth-2.  Other earth's followed including one where the Justice League were all villains (Earth-X, IIRC)

As far as costumes and attitudes go, DC movies seem to shrink from DC's bright-colored heritage.  Perhaps, since DC is known for much silliness from the 40s to the 70s they darkened their movie outlook to cue the viewer that they are trying to be serious.  You could argue with cause that they're trying too hard...

No I am not referring to the movie WW costume however.  The Wonder Woman costume I so despise evaded a quick google search.  I found one that looked to be a rebuild of it, but that's as close as I got.

[hkmaly 490]

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Given that several characters have at various times claimed the "Phoenix" name and/or tapped into the Phoenix Force, you can probably treat them as using a common rule set among that group.  You could treat them like gamma ray transformations (Hulk, etc.) or DC's "Speed Force" Speedsters or those with Kryptonian physiology. 

Yes.

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

On 10/01/2016 at 3:56 AM, hkmaly said:

Of course shortpacked is not DC canon, but I assumed it references DC canon, which tvtropes sort of confirms, although it explains in the spoiler that it wasn't THAT bad.

To my mind, Canon doesn't work second-hand.  You know what happens when you assume, right? 

For me to accept Shortpacked as referencing DC continuity, they need to actually reference continuity.  Especially working with something obviously over the top on its own like the "I'm Batman" joke/meme.  Then you quote that, not Shortpacked, except to add an amusing note to the conversation.  It's kind of a "pictures or it didn't happen" thing.

Ok, ok, I should've researched more.

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

No I am not referring to the movie WW costume however.  The Wonder Woman costume I so despise evaded a quick google search.  I found one that looked to be a rebuild of it, but that's as close as I got.

Well if YOU wasn't able to find it how could I?

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Perhaps, since DC is known for much silliness from the 40s to the 70s they darkened their movie outlook to cue the viewer that they are trying to be serious.

It worked with Star Trek! ... I imagine someone from DC was using as argument ...

Except, obviously, ST:TOS WAS serious and TNG changed more than just color of walls.

 

[Vorlonagent 442]

2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Well if YOU wasn't able to find it how could I?

I only just googled it.  I didn't know it'd be *that* hard to find, though I suppose it makes sense in retrospect.  The only reason I even know about it is that it crossed my FB feed 4 or 5 years ago.  It's possible you ran across it independently.  I don't know what you know or don't know about comics.  I know I sound like I know more than I actually do. 

5 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It worked with Star Trek! ... I imagine someone from DC was using as argument ...

Except, obviously, ST:TOS WAS serious and TNG changed more than just color of walls.

TNG kind of did the inverse, right?  Got less serious than Classic Trek?  It was hard for me to take the first 3 seasons of TNG seriously, anyway.  It got better by seasons 4-6 and but went stark raving silly in season 7, save for "All Good Things", the show-ending final episode.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

Just now, Vorlonagent said:

TNG kind of did the inverse, right?  Got less serious than Classic Trek?  It was hard for me to take the first 3 seasons of TNG seriously, anyway.  It got better by seasons 4-6 and but went stark raving silly in season 7, save for "All Good Things", the show-ending final episode.

That pretty much matches what SF Debris says except that hints of the improvements to come could be sensed in late season 3. He usually refers to season 1 as the "let's see how fast we can get this turkey cancelled" season and to season 7 as the "oh crap, we ran out of ideas, now what?" season.

[Vorlonagent 442]

27 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

That pretty much matches what SF Debris says except that hints of the improvements to come could be sensed in late season 3. He usually refers to season 1 as the "let's see how fast we can get this turkey cancelled" season and to season 7 as the "oh crap, we ran out of ideas, now what?" season.

I'm not surprised to hear there might be hints in season 3.  My understanding of Season 7 was "Last season.  Screw it, nothing matters anymore"

[hkmaly 490]

20 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

30 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Well if YOU wasn't able to find it how could I?

I only just googled it.  I didn't know it'd be *that* hard to find, though I suppose it makes sense in retrospect.  The only reason I even know about it is that it crossed my FB feed 4 or 5 years ago.  It's possible you ran across it independently.  I don't know what you know or don't know about comics.  I know I sound like I know more than I actually do. 

I sound like I know more that I do too, and I sound like knowing less than you

I don't have facebook, so I would be less likely to notice it is issue even if I noticed it. Although ... I have some game and games outcries knowledge just by reading webcomics which references modern games ... so, I guess it WOULD be possible, it just didn't happened ...

24 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

34 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Except, obviously, ST:TOS WAS serious and TNG changed more than just color of walls.

TNG kind of did the inverse, right?  Got less serious than Classic Trek?  It was hard for me to take the first 3 seasons of TNG seriously, anyway.  It got better by seasons 4-6 and but went stark raving silly in season 7, save for "All Good Things", the show-ending final episode.

Hmmmmm ... it really depends on how you look at it. I think they started to take technology seriously pretty soon, and design of Enterprise was serious and looked more serious than the TOS one (but TOS one was also serious, it only doesn't look serious from hindsight), but yes, the seriousness is not really visible on the plot of first seasons ...

[Vorlonagent 442]

5 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Hmmmmm ... it really depends on how you look at it. I think they started to take technology seriously pretty soon, and design of Enterprise was serious and looked more serious than the TOS one (but TOS one was also serious, it only doesn't look serious from hindsight), but yes, the seriousness is not really visible on the plot of first seasons ...

Classic Trek was very much a creature of its times.  It doesn't stand well to 2016 standards.  But compared to other shows of its day (any Lost in Space episode filmed in color for example), it was both groundbreaking and stone-cold serious. 

[hkmaly 490]

20 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

31 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Hmmmmm ... it really depends on how you look at it. I think they started to take technology seriously pretty soon, and design of Enterprise was serious and looked more serious than the TOS one (but TOS one was also serious, it only doesn't look serious from hindsight), but yes, the seriousness is not really visible on the plot of first seasons ...

Classic Trek was very much a creature of its times.  It doesn't stand well to 2016 standards.  But compared to other shows of its day (any Lost in Space episode filmed in color for example), it was both groundbreaking and stone-cold serious. 

Yes. I think it was DS9 which actually matched the groundbreakingness, not TNG.

[Vorlonagent 442]

1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Yes. I think it was DS9 which actually matched the groundbreakingness, not TNG.

Generally agreed.  Competition tends to force one to step up their game and Babylon 5 reached its prime about the same time as DS9 hit Season 3 or 4.  I'd argue DS9s first few seasons didn't push the envelope much past Sisco punching Q.

The Dominion War was good stuff with a few caveats.  I could have done without Jake Sisco: Ace War Reporter and the degree to which characters went to a hologram for relationship advice...

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

8 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

characters went to a hologram for relationship advice...

The hologram would probably give better relationship advice than I would.

Besides, all or some of us may be simulations of beings rather than the "intelligent" life forms we think we are.

 

 

 

[hkmaly 490]

3 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Yes. I think it was DS9 which actually matched the groundbreakingness, not TNG.

Generally agreed.  Competition tends to force one to step up their game and Babylon 5 reached its prime about the same time as DS9 hit Season 3 or 4.  I'd argue DS9s first few seasons didn't push the envelope much past Sisco punching Q.

The Dominion War was good stuff with a few caveats.  I could have done without Jake Sisco: Ace War Reporter and the degree to which characters went to a hologram for relationship advice...

Hmmm ... it's true 2x23 wasn't that explicit about it as 4x06 and 7x12 ...