Discussion of Military, real or fictional

[Darth Fluffy 302]

"Is wooden bear! Honors our liberation!"

[The Old Hack 2,448]

14 hours ago, mlooney said:

Latest Ruzzian seige system.

I have to admit, that would have scared the shit out of me if I had been a defender on a castle wall a dozen or so centuries ago. Imagine a siege tower approaching at like 20 mph.

I admit I am less sure how much good it will do in an age where principal defences consist of stuff like minefields, defensive artillery and high power automatic weaponry, and walls are at best just an afterthought.

13 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Do the big empty wooden horse next.

Please. Russians are more modern than that. They would do a big empty wooden T-34.

12 hours ago, mlooney said:

I suspect that Ukrainian forces would not take that in.  Now if it goes the other way, it's possible.

Well the problem is that once again the Trojan Horse was a vehicle for getting past walls. The real value of the soldiers inside was that they could open the gates for the rest of the Greek armies. In order for a Russian Horse/T-34 to be applicable, the Russians would first have to successfully construct a huge wall that could actually keep Ukrainians out, and good luck with that.

Mind you I would not like to guarantee that the current Russian leadership isn't considering the idea. I mean building a big wall is what Trump's strategy was, so there is a modern precedent.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

10 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

 I mean building a big wall is what Trump's strategy was, so there is a modern precedent.

I'm shocked! Trump had a strategy?

[mlooney 3,417]

3 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I'm shocked! Trump had a strategy?

Yeah, he has strategies, just none of them will work.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

3 hours ago, mlooney said:

Yeah, he has strategies, just none of them will work.

Building a wall to solve a territorial migratory issue is a strategy. It just happens to be one that is centuries out of date. Also even when they worked, walls needed to be manned with well-equipped and trained soldiers. But that would cost money so Trump never even considered it. This is why Nancy Pelosi suggested a beaded curtain as an alternative; it would be cheaper, prettier and hardly any less effective.

[mlooney 3,417]

4 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Building a wall to solve a territorial migratory issue is a strategy. It just happens to be one that is centuries out of date. Also even when they worked, walls needed to be manned with well-equipped and trained soldiers. But that would cost money so Trump never even considered it. This is why Nancy Pelosi suggested a beaded curtain as an alternative; it would be cheaper, prettier and hardly any less effective.

Yeah, China had problems with Mongols even after the Great Wall was built.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

2 hours ago, mlooney said:

Yeah, China had problems with Mongols even after the Great Wall was built.

It looks nice from orbit, mind you.

[Don Edwards 548]

The dynasty that built the wall between China proper and Manchuria was the one before the Manchurian dynasty.

That appears to be the pattern for several other segments of the Great Wall.

The surprising thing, though, is how many people who claimed that Trump's proposed wall would do no good, live in properties with walls around them.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

 

City & castle walls have been far more effective than frontier walls throughout history.

And even those share the same weakness.  Their own guards and others permitted to use the gates.

 

[The Old Hack 2,448]

12 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

The surprising thing, though, is how many people who claimed that Trump's proposed wall would do no good, live in properties with walls around them.

Well I live enclosed by walls. I use them to keep wind and weather out.

Anyway, can you cite figures for how much good Trump's wall fragments have done?

[mlooney 3,417]

Thinking about it, I haven't lived any where with walls or wooden fences since grade school

[Don Edwards 548]

33 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Well I live enclosed by walls. I use them to keep wind and weather out.

Anyway, can you cite figures for how much good Trump's wall fragments have done?

I was referring to walls around properties or housing developments. Walls with no razor wire, no monitoring cameras, no patrolling security folks...

I believe it was documented that Trump's walls were encouraging illegal immigrants to cross the border at other places, where there were no walls yet. Ya know, a gate across the path doesn't keep people out if they can just walk around it because it's a standalone gate with no fence or other barrier in sight - but that doesn't mean an actual fence won't keep people out.

But I doubt that a completed wall, even with adequate security patrols, would have had sufficient effect to be worth the expense, as long as we continue to reward people for entering the country illegally. And we've done even more of that since Trump left office than we were doing before he was elected - because the Democrat and Republican leadership keep cutting deals where we'll increase those rewards now, in exchange for a promise to think about tightening immigration rules later.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

9 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

But I doubt that a completed wall, even with adequate security patrols, would have had sufficient effect to be worth the expense,

That puts you miles ahead of a great many other Republicans.

9 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

as long as we continue to reward people for entering the country illegally.

Yes, how horrible, offering people a safe place to live when they could just stay home and be killed instead.

Speaking as a child of a refugee family, you will not garner much sympathy from me with that argument. After all, my grandfather and grandmother could just have stayed in Denmark and be sent to the concentration camps instead of illegally going to Sweden.

[Don Edwards 548]

3 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

That puts you miles ahead of a great many other Republicans.

Please, stop the insults already.

3 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Yes, how horrible, offering people a safe place to live when they could just stay home and be killed instead.

The people you're referring to here don't need to enter the country illegally - they can claim refugee status and ask for asylum.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

4 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

The people you're referring to here don't need to enter the country illegally - they can claim refugee status and ask for asylum.

You mean my grandparents could just have gone to a presumably Nazi-controlled immigration office and asked for permission to legally flee to Sweden, awaiting an answer? I wish they had known that. They could have avoided fleeing across the Sound in a leaky rowboat that almost sank before they reached Sweden.

It is also worth mentioning that there was serious discussion in Sweden as to whether allow Danish Jews to claim refugee status, by the way. A sizable political faction wanted to deny them that. After all helping them cost money so it would be cheaper just to shove them aboard a boat and sail them back to Denmark where the Nazis would give them a nice camp for housing. If that faction had won, my grandparents and father would have arrived illegally and then it would be RUDE of them to try and stay.

[ijuin 572]

19 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

But I doubt that a completed wall, even with adequate security patrols, would have had sufficient effect to be worth the expense

Building the wall is not about its effectiveness in keeping out would-be border crossers, but rather it is about its effectiveness in attracting the support of would-be voters.

[Darth Fluffy 302]

7 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

The people you're referring to here don't need to enter the country illegally - they can claim refugee status and ask for asylum.

In fairness to O.H., you are putting much thought into this. The G.O.P. is fragmented, no longer the Republican Party I recall. A minority have stayed true to the goals they espoused decades ago, and they don't like Trump; they are called RINOs today. I have lived under some of these, and we have survived as a nation. I would not vote for Mitt Romney, but he would have been a decent president, and we would not have huge ethical issues tearing our nation apart.

Then there are a crop of believers in the MAGA rhetoric, who buy the BS, but at least have some semblance of reason. You seem to be in this group; you want to dialog and find out more. Kudos.

(I call MAGA BS because it is pure marketing. Which America are they calling great? The America of the Prohibition era? When organized crime gained a huge foothold in our culture?  The America of the Great Depression, when millions were jobless, fat cats raped the land, and scandal followed scandal? The America that climbed out of that pit under one of the most reviled presidents of our history, who gave people government jobs so they could feed their families? (They did impressive work, the Blue Ridge Parkway is a testament to their efforts.) The America who under that same lefty president went full on Antifa and helped kick Nazi butt? ("I'm sure there were good people on both sides." - really, Mr. Dump?) The America who lynched decorated black veterans for wearing a uniform as they returned home? The America who recovered under a moderate centrist former commander of American forces, and ushered in an era of growth as veterans returned to the work force? The America that *** began *** tackling racial issues? It is good to have high hopes for our nation, but it is best not to approach it from a fantasy history. I prefer the phrase, "The audacity of hope" to the phrase "Make America great again".)

Then there are the current GOP leaders, some jaded politicians who care more for power and short term politics than the health of the country they allegedly serve, some nefarious opportunists who have snookered their electorate, and some actual loony toons stage performers who may not offer much, butf good God, can they put on a stage show.

All then fueled by yet another segment online, foreign actors who aid and abet in order to tear our system down. I'll give the fourth class this, their virulence is effective. They've made more progress damaging our government than any other faction has in over a century.

Back to your point:

7 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

The people you're referring to here don't need to enter the country illegally - they can claim refugee status and ask for asylum.

IIRC, the change under Trump was that a family could no longer reside in the US while the case was adjudicated. The process takes months or years. People already awaiting adjudication were deported. New ones could not enter. Refugee camps appeared on the Mexican side, a situation Mexico was not ready nor equipped to handle.

Mind you, while this is happening money is being diverted from adjudication to enforcement and fence building. Slowing the process down. Because this was never really about improving the process, it was about pandering to people's fears.

Then they started grabbing kids and putting them in cages, separating them from their parents. Because hard hearted cruelty is not enough, let us descend into an absurdist realm. This raises the issue in my mind, "Are these idiots even human?"

Let us not forget the 'Dreamers'. Yes, they are technically immigrants; brought to this country as young children, they were not actually born here. Is the fact that this is the only culture they know relevant to their fate? According to MAGA, it is not. Deport them back to a place they don't know which speaks a language they may not speak.

(I have to admit, immigrants are indeed much of the problem. If the damn Native American's had adopted a more effective immigration control policy we wouldn't have much of the issues we have today . . . Oh, is that what MAGA is getting at? Remove all the immigrants that came since 1492 and the problems go away? OK, they may have a point . . .)

<Sigh> Don, you are trying to be sensible about this. Look at the history of our immigration policies, and how racist and discriminatory they have been, and still are. Or not even immigration policies; you can be born on US soil, be fully a US citizen by birth, in a demographic that contributes disproportionately to manning our military, and still be denied the right to vote in national elections because of racist legislation that was passed in the early 1900s.

Sadly, we are not unique in any of this; everyone has many skeletons in the closet.

Apologies, I just realized we are posting this discussion in the wrong thread., Let us please move to the political thread if you want to continue.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Darth Fluffy
Apology and asked to move to the politics thread.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

2 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Apologies, I just realized we are posting this discussion in the wrong thread., Let us please move to the political thread if you want to continue.

The same thing occurred to me. Thank you for pointing this out.

[Don Edwards 548]

4 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

You mean my grandparents could just have gone to a presumably Nazi-controlled immigration office and asked for permission to legally flee to Sweden, awaiting an answer?

Why do you think the German government can give permission to immigrate into Sweden? Getting out of Germany probably would have been tricky, but to then legally be in Sweden they'd need approval of Sweden's government, not Germany's.

And it can be gotten after the fact - go there, promptly notify local authorities that you're there and why.

[mlooney 3,417]

Quote

The US will transfer thousands of seized Iranian weapons and rounds of ammunition to Ukraine CNN reported. 

https://x.com/kyivpost/status/1709584816612470918?s=46

 

Can't think of a better use of them.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

20 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Why do you think the German government can give permission to immigrate into Sweden? Getting out of Germany probably would have been tricky, but to then legally be in Sweden they'd need approval of Sweden's government, not Germany's.

And it can be gotten after the fact - go there, promptly notify local authorities that you're there and why.

Following up on this in politics thread.

[mlooney 3,417]

19 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Following up on this in politics thread.

"War is simply the continuation of political intercourse with the addition of other means."

-- Some German Guy

[The Old Hack 2,448]

6 minutes ago, mlooney said:

"War is simply the continuation of political intercourse with the addition of other means."

"All warfare is based on deception, so that tracks."

-- Some Chinese Guy, Misquoted

[mlooney 3,417]

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting

Same Chinese Guy, translated so it might be misquoted as well.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

"War is a failure of politics."

-- Some American Guy