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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

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Pinup Double, Elliot and Elliot? Wed March 9 2017

44 posts in this topic

21 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It is canon that Ellen's FV5 beam does alter sexual preference according to Ellen after she zapped Susan.

I would go further on gender though and say that yes it obviously changes physical gender when it's applied to males. Gender identity however, I don't think that's something Dan would mess with. Having a beam that could force a male to identify as a female or vise versa seems like it could be used to evil purposes or something, like "there's a man that identifies as a woman? Let's zap him so he identifies as a man!" instead of "there's a man that identifies as a woman? lets zap her so she has the body she yearned for!"

I'd say there's a difference between what the TF Gun can do and what Tedd has done with it.  I don't think Tedd has messed with gender identity, which in turn suggests that Ellen's Fv5 handbeam doesn't.

Since all TF Gun morphs are temporary, messing with gender identity could have some cruel mind-mucking side effects.  On the other hand, an Uryouom would take it in stride and they built the TF Gun.

An interesting question is if Ellen's "copy" handbeam copies the target's identification.  If Ellen copied Tedd, would she get his genderfluidity?  If she copied Sam, would she become a trans-male?  I tend to think yes, but it's a definitely debatable question.

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2 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

An interesting question is if Ellen's "copy" handbeam copies the target's identification.  If Ellen copied Tedd, would she get his genderfluidity?  If she copied Sam, would she become a trans-male?  I tend to think yes, but it's a definitely debatable question.

I don't think her copy spell would go that deep, I think it's just for copying appearance and doesn't affect how she behaves or feels, and we're not entirely sure if Ellen could copy someone's abilities again either. Mind you we've only seen her use the copy twice and copying Nanase's guardian form might have been a similar situation to when Ellen zapped Vlad into Vladia (though there might have been some divine intervention with copying Nanase). Ellen's magic seems to only go beyond it's intended effect when she feels very strongly about something or someone, which has so far been Nanase both times.

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1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Since all TF Gun morphs are temporary, messing with gender identity could have some cruel mind-mucking side effects.  On the other hand, an Uryouom would take it in stride and they built the TF Gun.

Quite the contrary: Uryouom build it and they had close to none concept of gender identity. Therefore, TF Gun doesn't change it.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I don't think her copy spell would go that deep, I think it's just for copying appearance and doesn't affect how she behaves or feels, and we're not entirely sure if Ellen could copy someone's abilities again either.

She copied the cat and didn't shown any cat-like behaviour. She even talked like human, despite it being additional work for the spell.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Mind you we've only seen her use the copy twice and copying Nanase's guardian form might have been a similar situation to when Ellen zapped Vlad into Vladia (though there might have been some divine intervention with copying Nanase). Ellen's magic seems to only go beyond it's intended effect when she feels very strongly about something or someone, which has so far been Nanase both times.

I think the copying of Nanase's guardian form had more to do with Susan's fairy case than with Vladia's case.

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17 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I think the copying of Nanase's guardian form had more to do with Susan's fairy case than with Vladia's case.

I'm just saying, when Ellen copied Nanase, it was a particularly dramatic moment and Ellen feared for Nanase's safety, just like with the vladia case.

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51 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Quite the contrary: Uryouom build it and they had close to none concept of gender identity. Therefore, TF Gun doesn't change it.

TF Gun can alter sexual preference, however and that's foreign to Uryouoms too.

59 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

She copied the cat and didn't shown any cat-like behaviour. She even talked like human, despite it being additional work for the spell.

Copying Brownie and still being able to speak is an excellent point.  Ellen's copy beam did not seem to impose impose catlike instincts on her.  But did it copy Brownie's ability to sleep at a moment's notice?  :)

41 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I'm just saying, when Ellen copied Nanase, it was a particularly dramatic moment and Ellen feared for Nanase's safety, just like with the vladia case.

I'd tend to think there's a difference in the intensity of the situation between defending someone you love against the monster that just knocked her around and realizing your girlfriend is being stupidly brave.  Magic likes drama, true, but emotion on the part of a magic-user is a game changer.  Unmet emotional wants or needs enable Marking.  A big enough emotional backlash can Awaken.

but then I'd argue that Ellen could copy Nanase's Angel form a second time if her reasons for copying the Angel form satisfied the conditions for Nanase initiating the Angel form to begin with.  I am not convinced Ellen could go Angel on her own unless she earned her own copy of the Angel spell and Dan hasn't told us.

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Just now, Vorlonagent said:

TF Gun can alter sexual preference, however and that's foreign to Uryouoms too.

It's not entirely foreign to them, it could be much more trivial for them to be able to approximate physical attraction based on observations of other races, but trying to determine what amounts to gender identity would be much more complex.

3 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

But did it copy Brownie's ability to sleep at a moment's notice?  :)

She certainly didn't fall asleep in the middle of her father's presentation, so I'd say no she didn't get Brownie's narcolepsy.

7 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

but then I'd argue that Ellen could copy Nanase's Angel form a second time if her reasons for copying the Angel form satisfied the conditions for Nanase initiating the Angel form to begin with.  I am not convinced Ellen could go Angel on her own unless she earned her own copy of the Angel spell and Dan hasn't told us.

I want to say there might be a chance we'll find out near the end of Sister 3 but I'm thinking Dan doesn't want to use the copy-spell team up too much, and might not even have Nanase use the guardian form, so the mystery will probably continue.

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I think that a bell needs to be ringing for Nanase (or Ellen via copy) to access the Angel Guardian Form.

 

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1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Quite the contrary: Uryouom build it and they had close to none concept of gender identity. Therefore, TF Gun doesn't change it.

TF Gun can alter sexual preference, however and that's foreign to Uryouoms too.

Not that much. Uryouoms DO have some preferences for their partners, even if those are not related to sex organs.

52 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It's not entirely foreign to them, it could be much more trivial for them to be able to approximate physical attraction based on observations of other races, but trying to determine what amounts to gender identity would be much more complex.

... not speaking about this.

52 minutes ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

But did it copy Brownie's ability to sleep at a moment's notice?  :)

She certainly didn't fall asleep in the middle of her father's presentation, so I'd say no she didn't get Brownie's narcolepsy.

Agree, that's pretty solid proof.

54 minutes ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

but then I'd argue that Ellen could copy Nanase's Angel form a second time if her reasons for copying the Angel form satisfied the conditions for Nanase initiating the Angel form to begin with.  I am not convinced Ellen could go Angel on her own unless she earned her own copy of the Angel spell and Dan hasn't told us.

I want to say there might be a chance we'll find out near the end of Sister 3 but I'm thinking Dan doesn't want to use the copy-spell team up too much, and might not even have Nanase use the guardian form, so the mystery will probably continue.

We can't be even sure Nanase and Ellen will feature in Sister 3 finale.

Although it would be interesting information if vampires are vulnerable to guardian forms ...

 

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

She certainly didn't fall asleep in the middle of her father's presentation, so I'd say no she didn't get Brownie's narcolepsy.

What looks like narcolepsy is often due to lack of sleep due to sleep apnea.  Or in Brownie's case, just being a cat.

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15 hours ago, Scotty said:

I would go further on gender though and say that yes it obviously changes physical gender when it's applied to males. Gender identity however, I don't think that's something Dan would mess with. 

As I understand it, current proper usage / convention is that the word "sex" is used for physical form, while "gender" is used for the mental and emotional aspect.

15 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Since all TF Gun morphs are temporary, messing with gender identity could have some cruel mind-mucking side effects.  On the other hand, an Uryouom would take it in stride and they built the TF Gun.

At Grace's birthday party, Justin made it clear that his gender identity had not changed.  He said he was a guy, and being in a female body felt wrong.  It's possible that this could be changed but Tedd hasn't discovered or made use of that, but I doubt it.  Bad enough to mess with peoples' sexual orientation, which is also a pretty core part of who they are, although at least there the beam adds attractions but doesn't take them away.  Someone who liked guys will still like guys, they just might also like girls after being hit with the beam.

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1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

As I understand it, current proper usage / convention is that the word "sex" is used for physical form, while "gender" is used for the mental and emotional aspect.

I think this goes back to something I was taught in elementary school, that saying gender was less vulgar than saying sex. Though maybe that was their attempt to keep us youngsters from learning about sex too early. Or maybe they thought it was more politically correct at the time, being PC was still a relatively new concept in the 80s.

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5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

As I understand it, current proper usage / convention is that the word "sex" is used for physical form, while "gender" is used for the mental and emotional aspect.

At Grace's birthday party, Justin made it clear that his gender identity had not changed.  He said he was a guy, and being in a female body felt wrong.  It's possible that this could be changed but Tedd hasn't discovered or made use of that, but I doubt it.  Bad enough to mess with peoples' sexual orientation, which is also a pretty core part of who they are, although at least there the beam adds attractions but doesn't take them away.  Someone who liked guys will still like guys, they just might also like girls after being hit with the beam.

As of Grace's birthday Party Tedd did not touch the parts of the TF-Gun that touched on sexuality.  The way the Gun works with gender and attraction came as factory defaults. Tedd tells Justin that his sense of who he is attracted to would be unchanged despite the TF Gun adding a heterosexual overlay to whatever the new form is.

I would suggest that the TF Gun doesn't affect gender identity because Uryouoms don't have an inherent gender identity to begin with.  Nor is one needed if the goal is to help a different species make children.

I think we're agreed that the TF Gun does not affect gender identity.  Justin identifies male before transformation and still identifies male afterward.  The overlay of heterosexuality that went with the shift to female would just enhance the sorts of attractions Justin already feels. 

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10 hours ago, Scotty said:
11 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

As I understand it, current proper usage / convention is that the word "sex" is used for physical form, while "gender" is used for the mental and emotional aspect.

I think this goes back to something I was taught in elementary school, that saying gender was less vulgar than saying sex. Though maybe that was their attempt to keep us youngsters from learning about sex too early. Or maybe they thought it was more politically correct at the time, being PC was still a relatively new concept in the 80s.

Yes, this is the reason I get mixed them up sometimes as well.

Sex is STILL the word for doing "it". It was brilliant move from gender activist to "steal" the word gender and stop the movement to make the word "sex" forbidden just like the f-word.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

As of Grace's birthday Party Tedd did not touch the parts of the TF-Gun that touched on sexuality.  The way the Gun works with gender and attraction came as factory defaults.

It is however possible he didn't touch it just because he didn't have any better idea how that should work.

(Possibly because he didn't known Justin. Maybe if he did, he would just make the TF Gun turn everyone into bisexuals.)

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I would suggest that the TF Gun doesn't affect gender identity because Uryouoms don't have an inherent gender identity to begin with.

Yes.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Nor is one needed if the goal is to help a different species make children.

Actually, it can be argued that the nine months necessary to have child would be unnecessary hard for male turned female. But I would suppose changing gender identity will be hard even if you WOULD understand the issue, and Uryouoms don't. WE really don't understand it either, actually. Attraction is easier ... and, in fact, might not be done so well either, remember than Ellen now describes herself as bisexual homoromantic because she feels her attraction to men is not as "real" as attraction to women.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

The overlay of heterosexuality that went with the shift to female would just enhance the sorts of attractions Justin already feels. 

I don't think so, there must've been some check for "already done" because Justin doesn't seem to be attracted to males more than normally.

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12 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

remember than Ellen now describes herself as bisexual homoromantic because she feels her attraction to men is not as "real" as attraction to women.

It's possible that anyone who isn't already homosexual might become bisexual homoromantic after being zapped by the TFG or Ellen's beam. Like with Justin and Nanase, they retained their sexual preference because there wasn't a need to simulate attraction. With Ellen, her true sexual preference was that of Elliot's which was being attracted to females, thus the attraction to males was carried over from the TFG giving the artificial attraction to males to Elliot.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

remember than Ellen now describes herself as bisexual homoromantic because she feels her attraction to men is not as "real" as attraction to women.

It's possible that anyone who isn't already homosexual might become bisexual homoromantic after being zapped by the TFG or Ellen's beam. Like with Justin and Nanase, they retained their sexual preference because there wasn't a need to simulate attraction. With Ellen, her true sexual preference was that of Elliot's which was being attracted to females, thus the attraction to males was carried over from the TFG giving the artificial attraction to males to Elliot.

Exactly, but nothing new on that. What I'm saying is that this is not "by design" but actually bug or deficiency in TFG. That it was SUPPOSED to make people bisexual biromantic but Uryouom didn't understand the "romantic" part enough.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

It is however possible he didn't touch it just because he didn't have any better idea how that should work.

(Possibly because he didn't known Justin. Maybe if he did, he would just make the TF Gun turn everyone into bisexuals.)

I don't think Tedd had any better idea how it should work.  He didn't know what genderfluid meant until Grace introduced him to the term, so it's pretty obvious that he didn't really understand nuances of sexuality and attraction when he was working on the TF Gun.
 

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Actually, it can be argued that the nine months necessary to have child would be unnecessary hard for male turned female. But I would suppose changing gender identity will be hard even if you WOULD understand the issue, and Uryouoms don't. WE really don't understand it either, actually. Attraction is easier ... and, in fact, might not be done so well either, remember than Ellen now describes herself as bisexual homoromantic because she feels her attraction to men is not as "real" as attraction to women.

I don't think so, there must've been some check for "already done" because Justin doesn't seem to be attracted to males more than normally.

I thought the idea is that Uryouoms would temporarily take on forms needed to create a breeding population for another race with a limited population.  While the TF Gun works on other races, I think it was designed by Uryouoms for Uryouoms. 

When Susan asks Ellen to transform her it was with the intent to try out lesbianism.  But Ellen informs her that being Fv5ed should result in more intense heterosexual attraction

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5 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

When Susan asks Ellen to transform her it was with the intent to try out lesbianism.  But Ellen informs her that being Fv5ed should result in more intense heterosexual attraction

Yeah because Susan likely wasn't even remotely bisexual to begin with and she was suppressing any attraction to men at the time so while being FV5'd gave her some attraction to females, it probably would have negated that suppression towards males.

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16 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It is however possible he didn't touch it just because he didn't have any better idea how that should work.

(Possibly because he didn't known Justin. Maybe if he did, he would just make the TF Gun turn everyone into bisexuals.)

I don't think Tedd had any better idea how it should work.  He didn't know what genderfluid meant until Grace introduced him to the term, so it's pretty obvious that he didn't really understand nuances of sexuality and attraction when he was working on the TF Gun.

True ; based on his level of understanding nuances of sexuality, he 1) might still not be aware of the deficiency I mentioned and 2) would likely be unable to fix it anyway.

4 minutes ago, Scotty said:
18 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

When Susan asks Ellen to transform her it was with the intent to try out lesbianism.  But Ellen informs her that being Fv5ed should result in more intense heterosexual attraction

Yeah because Susan likely wasn't even remotely bisexual to begin with and she was suppressing any attraction to men at the time so while being FV5'd gave her some attraction to females, it probably would have negated that suppression towards males.

Not sure about the suppressing, but I think the "more intense" was specific for FV5 which includes increased libido and amplified feelings of lust. Meaning, FV1 would NOT result in more intense heterosexual attraction.

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