np NP: Friday, July 15, 2016

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

In the universe of The Dresden Files, there is a group fighting what is known as The Oblivion War.  They're deliberately trying to destroy all knowledge of certain dieties, so that when they are finally forgotten completely they will cease to exist.  This mostly consists of destroying the cultists who follow them and all written knowledge of the diety in question.

The White Council of wizards has sort of the opposite battle to fight.  There are certain spells/rituals which Harry compares to a vending machine -- put in the correct coins, the correct rituals and power, and you get back a certain result.  Turns out that the more people try to use such a ritual, the more diffuse and dissipated their powr gets, until they are pretty much useless.  The White Council therefore have a favorite tactic of deliberately publishing stuff like the Necronomicon so as to rob them of their power.

Naturally, these two strategies occasionally come into conflict, and the Oblivion War has to manage to destroy certain tomes before the White Council get the chance to copy and publish them.....and they can't tell the White Council about it or they'll spread the very knowledge they're trying to suppress.

[banneret 45]

Furthermore, everyone knew Voldemort's name, indeed the knowledge was fundamental to maintaining the fear. His name was not erased from written or oral record, and this kept his mythology specific and potent.
 

He was not Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh whose name was struck from his cartouches and whose spirit was doomed to wander forever in Amenti for his monotheist Atenism, while his children converted. Thirty years on, Akhenaten and his successors were removed from the King Lists, their rulership effectively erased from the record, as his temples were dismantled and the city of Akhetaten was abandoned to the elements.

In contrast, Voldemort retained a living cult after his initial defeat, and remained a central figure in the collective psyche. He was part of a narrative of dark wizardry, had terrorized at least two generations of wizards, and effectively determined policy for decades. His supporters persisted, his mythology grew, and the shadow kept society weak and vulnerable to his eventual return.

[hkmaly 490]

9 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Voldemort is a poor comparison. The reason no-one spoke his name was that they were afraid of doing so.

I know it's not the same case, but it still reminded me it.

3 hours ago, banneret said:

Furthermore, everyone knew Voldemort's name, indeed the knowledge was fundamental to maintaining the fear. His name was not erased from written or oral record, and this kept his mythology specific and potent.

... although your analysis of HOW much different it was is still nice.

3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Naturally, these two strategies occasionally come into conflict

Occasionally?

It would also be interesting if BOTH would actually work. Although not impossible: the deities may not be "vending machines" themselves. We need more research on what exactly is the difference - wait, did I just painted myself as target for Oblivion war group?

How often is Oblivion war group killing scholars who didn't do anything bad but remember some obscure deity?

(How bad would be to start reading this "other Harry" with skipping first book?)

3 hours ago, banneret said:

He was not Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh

Seems like they failed with this one too.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

4 hours ago, banneret said:

He was not Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh whose name was struck from his cartouches and whose spirit was doomed to wander forever in Amenti for his monotheist Atenism, while his children converted. Thirty years on, Akhenaten and his successors were removed from the King Lists, their rulership effectively erased from the record, as his temples were dismantled and the city of Akhetaten was abandoned to the elements.

Consider in comparison the fearsome power of Pharaoh Rutin Tutin and the might this dreadful God-King employs on these forums even today. *shudder*

[mlooney 3,417]

18 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Gods who NEED plot armor shouldn't get it. Either it's small God with just few hundreds of believers and no other source of power, and then it's valid target, or it's someone in league of Lord of Nightmares ...

That's the point.  You can't kill gods that have active worshipers.  Not people that know about then, I mean those that have active worshipers or other deep ties to the god.  Wanting to wipe out the cult of that god makes you have deep ties.

 

Plus, you know, it's a game.

[banneret 45]

Quote

(How bad would be to start reading this "other Harry" with skipping first book?)

Most of the setting doesn't come in for books and books, I read the first ten and never encountered the Oblivion War. As with all long series, the first book provides a rudimentary hook, which is great for investing you in the character, but you don't actually need it.

 

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Seems like they failed with this one too.

They failed in the fullness of time, but then both the official curated oral and written traditions were effectively disrupted several times, and it is hard to say how long he was effectively lost. I think of it as a restoration, which dovetails nicely with the discussion of requisite worshipers. Who he was, in our perception, is still growing - see the Amarna letters and what that tells us about both his use of language, and his focus on foreign affairs.
 

[banneret 45]

48 minutes ago, mlooney said:

That's the point.  You can't kill gods that have active worshipers.  Not people that know about then, I mean those that have active worshipers or other deep ties to the god.  Wanting to wipe out the cult of that god makes you have deep ties.
 

Plus, you know, it's a game.

In one campaign, I leaned upon the myopia of faith to permit the succession and execution of a deity, but that depended on the deity crafting an impersonal identity about rule, which could then be assumed by another. Fitting for a deity of betrayers and regicides, whose power is narrow, and arrayed against the order enforced by her peers and betters.

Uncritical worship provides opportunity for usurpation, which is why a deity wants some intimacy with core followers, and some signature presence in the material plane to extend the scope of belief and attach it to herself in an identifiable manner.
 

[weirdee 27]

In Fallout games, if you hack into a terminal connected to a lock, you can use it to unlock the container.

But if you hack the terminal, leave the controls alone, and then just manually lockpick the lock, you'll get more exp.

Likewise, if you manually lockpick the lock first, you can't then hack the terminal most of the time.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

8 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It would also be interesting if BOTH would actually work. Although not impossible: the deities may not be "vending machines" themselves. We need more research on what exactly is the difference - wait, did I just painted myself as target for Oblivion war group?

How often is Oblivion war group killing scholars who didn't do anything bad but remember some obscure deity?

The Oblivion War only comes up in one short story (or did it count as a novella?) which is told from the POV of a different character instead of Harry.  Harry still has no idea it's happening, which is a good thing.  Given the much smaller number of pages in which it's explored, we don't know much at all about the Oblivion War.  Which is, of course, quite appropriate.  Even the people fighting this war are on need-to-know.  ;-)

Just my own guesses and speculations, but a dusty old scholarly paper or thesis probably doesn't do much to create new worshippers and believers.  I suspect the Oblivion War is responsible for a fair number of broken pipes in the stacks of University libraries, mice getting into boxes of stored theses, old obscure books being "unable to locate" on request slips, etc.

8 hours ago, hkmaly said:

(How bad would be to start reading this "other Harry" with skipping first book?)

There are a lot if things which are introduced early on which come back later and turn out to have been extremely important, even things in the first novel.  Jim Butcher did a *lot* of plotting ahead of time and dropping hints.  I suspect he's also not above hearing a fan ask whether some obscure bit he'd forgotten about was important, and sparking off of that to invent a new connection that *makes* it important later.  Jim is a bit of a troll; once you've read the first book, look up his story about how the character of Bob came to be.  Heck, his second bestselling series was spawned by a dare on an internet forum!

It might be helpful to remember that the first book, Storm Front, was the author's first published novel.  He was taking a creative writing class, and this was his ongoing project.  From all his stories and behind-the-scenes info, it sounds like he had a great teacher, with a sense of fun about the process, who taught actual useful tools and techniques.  Makes me wish I could go back and take the clsss too!  But, it's a little rough around the edges; his writing style gets better over the next few books.  He doesn't seem to be a writer who decided he got published and that's good enough, he's someone who is still working to hone his craft a few dozen books later.

3 hours ago, banneret said:

Most of the setting doesn't come in for books and books, I read the first ten and never encountered the Oblivion War. As with all long series, the first book provides a rudimentary hook, which is great for investing you in the character, but you don't actually need it.

As I said above, the Oblivion War is only revealed in one short work, set in the same universe but with a different POV character (Thomas, and I won't say more to avoid spoiling).  In general, the short stories are extras you don't need to read, but if you can read them in the appropriate places within the series, they add some depth and fun.  Occasionally there will be references within the novels to events in the short stories, but anything you actually need to know is explained well enough to carry on without them.

If I had to pick one book other than the first to start with, I think it would probably be Dead Beat, because it's got some of the best Crowning Moments of Funny and of Awesome.  However, it does spoil some earlier reveals (again, Thomas, and I won't say more), so it's not perfect.

Hmm, wonder if we could come out with a Dresden Files version of the Juggling Machetes order for Star Wars?  At the least we'd need to take it to an off-topic Spoiler thread.....