story Story, Wednesday, Jun 20, 2018

[hkmaly 490]

http://www.egscomics.com/comic/sister3-295

See? Whole page and still not end.

Although she mentioned the fact that turning back NOW would make her uncomfortable already.

... aaaand ... is Ellen trying to imply she was jealous of Elliot sometimes? I guess that was before Nanase.

(Also, yes, Magus is totally failing the conclusion jumping Olympic. Ellen can jump much farther.)

And Mr. Verres was the one who started with the whole "You are not Elliot, despite you remembering his life". And called her crybaby when she didn't took it well. Seriously, he should get someone else to tell that. Ideally professional. Oh wait, they don't have any with necessary clearance. ... I don't believe he would be able to understand that for some people, using TF gun every day would be preferable to staying female. Although it's paradoxical, as he doesn't understand why his son is comfortable changing to female either.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,619]

So everybody did the wrong thing.
But they did it with good intentions, or honestly had no idea what to do, so it's all ok.

That sounds very nice.  Almost a Disney or Sit-Com ending.

And all things considered, it wouldn't do much good for Ellen to remain resentful or angry at her friends, neighbors, and relatives for being confused and clumsy back then.

However...

Next comic - Ellen doesn't just drop the other shoe.  She drops the entire Prada werehouse.

[Stature 96]

"WYSIWYG. No questions." Must have been the mantra post-Sister.

Panel 4: *warily knocks on wood*

[Don Edwards 561]

22 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

So everybody did the wrong thing.

It doesn't seem so much "did the wrong thing" as "assumed, without asking, what the right thing was". It happens that they were pretty much correct, but they really should have asked.

In particular Mr. Verres - it seems he started the "Ellen should stay female to help her be a separate person from Elliot" thing, and the kids basically just went along with his authority.

(There's also the practical matter that with what they knew at the time, if Ellen *had* chosen to be male he presumably would have needed permanent access to a TFG throughout life. And Tedd only had his original Uryuom-made TFG.)

[Scotty 1,061]

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... aaaand ... is Ellen trying to imply she was jealous of Elliot sometimes? I guess that was before Nanase.

I guessing she's mainly referring to back when she was experiencing the Second Life dreams and had just gone through the whole "I pressured a guy into sleeping with me and it was all awkward" part, Magus was observing her emotions at that point and likely assumed that her feelings about being attracted to men meant that she'd rather be a guy and not have to worry about it. Although he would have mainly got that from the fact that Ellen was told she wouldn't be transforming into a guy, and later was eager to just zap everyone into girls, the assumption being that if she doesn't want anyone to be transformed into a guy, then she might be upset about not being turned into a guy herself.

The reality though was that she was upset about seeing someone she cared about being turned into a guy and being worried that she wouldn't be able to get Nanase to open up to her, or even be attracted to Nanase.  Nanase was hoping that being a guy would give her an excuse to do things with Ellen, but that was likely doomed at the start because of Ellen's decision that she preferred females.

5 hours ago, Stature said:

Panel 4: *warily knocks on wood*

I still think there might be special circumstances where she'd go through with being a guy for a bit. At the moment, this is how she feels, but maybe a couple years down the road, when her and Nanase start talking about starting a family again, if they want to go the natural pregnancy route rather than Uryuom egg or IVF, they will need to decide who gets to be male.

[Stature 96]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

At the moment, this is how she feels, but maybe a couple years down the road, when her and Nanase start talking about starting a family again, if they want to go the natural pregnancy route rather than Uryuom egg or IVF, they will need to decide who gets to be male.

"Rock, paper, scissors" "...Shoot."

Single organism reproduction what? 

[The Old Hack 2,489]

2 hours ago, Stature said:

"Rock, paper, scissors" "...Shoot."

Single organism reproduction what? 

If you feel particularly resistant to stupidity today, here is a link that leads to a blog page where halfway down an MRA explains how feminism and its insistence on parthenogenetic reproduction will lead to the extinction of the entire human race. Near the end you will find a professional geneticist's glorious refutation of the MRA's so-called thesis.

No, I did not know that feminists insist on parthenogenetic reproduction, either. I feel quite put out that my fellow feminists have not let me in on this part of our agenda.

[sstabeler 8]

for people suggesting Ellen might want to be male later so she could have a kid with Nanase, that's not quite the same thing. This is talking about the base form being male or female- Ellen doesn't have any problem with using the gun to become male temporarily (and while the gun's transformations do become permanent during pregnancy, i'm fairly sure that is for male-to-female transformations so that the kid can be brought to term (and, for that matter, for mammals, ensure the baby can be breastfed) not something that would happen to whoever is providing the sperm. So it's not really the same argument. (Indeed, if anything, considering gender expectations can be a social construct, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the whole thing came up because Magus's society believes men are inherently better at magic (in the sense that changing an X chromosome for a Y chromosome would cause a boost in magical ability) and that predisposed him to think Ellen secretly wanted to be male.

 

That, and one fundamental reason I doubt Ellen is that bothered being a girl is it assumes Ellen is some variant of "Elliott in a girl's body", and if she was, considering Elliott's only problem with Cheerleadara was because he ONLY had female forms, not being a girl as such, then it's doubtful Ellen would be that bothered anyway- and since Ellen really isn't "Elliott in a girl's body" and hasn't been for at least an in-universe year IIRC, then the chances of Ellen secretly wanting to be permanently male are remote.

[Scotty 1,061]

Just now, sstabeler said:

for people suggesting Ellen might want to be male later so she could have a kid with Nanase, that's not quite the same thing. This is talking about the base form being male or female- Ellen doesn't have any problem with using the gun to become male temporarily (and while the gun's transformations do become permanent during pregnancy, i'm fairly sure that is for male-to-female transformations so that the kid can be brought to term (and, for that matter, for mammals, ensure the baby can be breastfed) not something that would happen to whoever is providing the sperm. So it's not really the same argument. (Indeed, if anything, considering gender expectations can be a social construct, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the whole thing came up because Magus's society believes men are inherently better at magic (in the sense that changing an X chromosome for a Y chromosome would cause a boost in magical ability) and that predisposed him to think Ellen secretly wanted to be male.

 

That, and one fundamental reason I doubt Ellen is that bothered being a girl is it assumes Ellen is some variant of "Elliott in a girl's body", and if she was, considering Elliott's only problem with Cheerleadara was because he ONLY had female forms, not being a girl as such, then it's doubtful Ellen would be that bothered anyway- and since Ellen really isn't "Elliott in a girl's body" and hasn't been for at least an in-universe year IIRC, then the chances of Ellen secretly wanting to be permanently male are remote.

Oh I know there's a difference between Ellen not wanting to be permanently male but ok with being temporarily male for the purpose of procreation, I was trying to make that part clear. Sorry if it wasn't.

[hkmaly 490]

21 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

22 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

So everybody did the wrong thing.

It doesn't seem so much "did the wrong thing" as "assumed, without asking, what the right thing was". It happens that they were pretty much correct, but they really should have asked.

In particular Mr. Verres - it seems he started the "Ellen should stay female to help her be a separate person from Elliot" thing, and the kids basically just went along with his authority.

(There's also the practical matter that with what they knew at the time, if Ellen *had* chosen to be male he presumably would have needed permanent access to a TFG throughout life. And Tedd only had his original Uryuom-made TFG.)

I suspect that the mentioned practical matter was something Mr. Verres was giving higher priority than he should. As I said, Ellen ended up comfortable with that, but other people might be ready for LOT of inconvenience just to avoid dysphoria. While it's possible the gun is compensating for that, it's more likely Mr. Verres is basing his assumption of how comfortable people are with being transformed on Tedd ... who is really bad example in this.

16 hours ago, Scotty said:

I guessing she's mainly referring to back when she was experiencing the Second Life dreams and had just gone through the whole "I pressured a guy into sleeping with me and it was all awkward" part, Magus was observing her emotions at that point and likely assumed that her feelings about being attracted to men meant that she'd rather be a guy and not have to worry about it. Although he would have mainly got that from the fact that Ellen was told she wouldn't be transforming into a guy, and later was eager to just zap everyone into girls, the assumption being that if she doesn't want anyone to be transformed into a guy, then she might be upset about not being turned into a guy herself.

I find more likely she's referring to something which happened offscreen. She doesn't KNOW when Magus was observing her ... but we know Magus wasn't around at party.

16 hours ago, Scotty said:

I still think there might be special circumstances where she'd go through with being a guy for a bit. At the moment, this is how she feels, but maybe a couple years down the road, when her and Nanase start talking about starting a family again, if they want to go the natural pregnancy route rather than Uryuom egg or IVF, they will need to decide who gets to be male.

Tedd would be happy providing some nonbinary form, if that would help ... but yes, someone would need to end up with male reproductive organ if they don't go with Uryuom egg. (I think Nanase already rejected IVF.) And we are not sure how long they would need to stay that way to get working sperm.

And yes, I suppose at that point Ellen would do it. She just wouldn't be comfortable with that.

15 hours ago, Stature said:

"Rock, paper, scissors"

... in fact, we are not sure about Nanase, but we know for sure Ellen wouldn't be comfortable with ANY option. But, based on them talking about it, I think Ellen is considering having baby worth it.

10 hours ago, sstabeler said:

Ellen doesn't have any problem with using the gun to become male temporarily

She's probably not entirely comfortable with it, but I agree it's definitely not comparable to changing the permanent form.

12 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

No, I did not know that feminists insist on parthenogenetic reproduction, either. I feel quite put out that my fellow feminists have not let me in on this part of our agenda.

Feminists are not borg hive mind. I suspect there are feminist like that.

10 hours ago, sstabeler said:

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the whole thing came up because Magus's society believes men are inherently better at magic

Not at magic. At fighting.

10 hours ago, sstabeler said:

That, and one fundamental reason I doubt Ellen is that bothered being a girl is it assumes Ellen is some variant of "Elliott in a girl's body", and if she was, considering Elliott's only problem with Cheerleadara was because he ONLY had female forms, not being a girl as such, then it's doubtful Ellen would be that bothered anyway- and since Ellen really isn't "Elliott in a girl's body" and hasn't been for at least an in-universe year IIRC, then the chances of Ellen secretly wanting to be permanently male are remote.

Yes ... Ellen was transformed by TF gun which may or may not have some compensations in place, but Elliot transforms by himself and he STILL got comfortable with girl forms, proving original Elliot's problem with being girl were not as serious as one might expect.

[ijuin 594]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Feminists are not borg hive mind. I suspect there are feminist like that.

 

The ones who want female-only reproduction are mainly the ones who believe that women are best off having absolutely no sexual interaction with men at all. At the extreme end of the spectrum is the subgroup who desire a women-only world.

[The Old Hack 2,489]

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Feminists are not borg hive mind. I suspect there are feminist like that.

Highly likely, but I'm having some trouble seeing that as the goal of all of us, or even the majority. Which the genius in the linked piece blithely assumed.

2 hours ago, ijuin said:

The ones who want female-only reproduction

Not female-only. Parthenogenetic only. That is, involving only one individual which self-fertilises. The abovementioned genius claimed that this was the end goal of all feminists. That would not even include all of those who want female-only reproduction.

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Feminists are not borg hive mind. I suspect there are feminist like that.

Highly likely, but I'm having some trouble seeing that as the goal of all of us, or even the majority. Which the genius in the linked piece blithely assumed.

Normally, I would try to defend him with arguments like "If someone gets all news from internet, he might never knowingly meet non-radical feminist", but considering that genius failed to read the article he's citing, I suppose nothing short of brass knuckles with phrase "My girlfriend is a feminist" hitting him directly into forehead would help him to realize his mistake.

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

4 hours ago, ijuin said:

The ones who want female-only reproduction

Not female-only. Parthenogenetic only. That is, involving only one individual which self-fertilises. The abovementioned genius claimed that this was the end goal of all feminists. That would not even include all of those who want female-only reproduction.

I STILL wouldn't be surprised if some radical feminist already wrote hundred of articles proposing that. There ARE at least articles like this ...

[The Old Hack 2,489]

9 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I STILL wouldn't be surprised if some radical feminist already wrote hundred of articles proposing that. There ARE at least articles like this ...

Oh absolutely. The problem is that aforesaid genius is taking that seriously extremist fringe and pretending that it is our mainstream. Somewhat similar to taking me and saying all Danes are like me. This would come as a rude surprise to the rest of my countrymen.

[Scotty 1,061]

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

but we know Magus wasn't around at party.

The party hadn't started yet because the others hadn't arrived, by he was at Tedd's on Grace's birthday and had been observing her emotions just prior to attempting to get her to zap Elliot. After failing to do so (Ellen zapped Tedd instead) Helena and Demetrius "chased" him off.

If Magus had felt he could come back and observe more (obviously he didn't), he would have heard Ellen talking about here second life experience with Nanase and how she felt about being who she is.

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And we are not sure how long they would need to stay that way to get working sperm.

Grace told Sarah that a male turned female would have to remain female for several days before pregnancy was possible. Didn't say anything about female turned male though, but I would think that if both had to remain in those forms for several days Grace would have said "both of you would need to stay in your forms for several days before you can start worrying about pregnancy." My guess is either females turned male are ready to go, or they don't take nearly as long to get ready.

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Feminists are not borg hive mind. I suspect there are feminist like that.

3 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Highly likely, but I'm having some trouble seeing that as the goal of all of us, or even the majority. Which the genius in the linked piece blithely assumed.

There are extremists in all groups, and sadly many people focus on those when referring to said group. The loudest ones, while there may be few, still create the image.

Also, is it bad that I've become cynical to think that many of the loud speakers are trolls trying to sabotage groups who are honestly trying to do good things?

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Not at magic. At fighting.

Not so much that men are better, just that the male body is better suited for it, as Magus has said, Terra has beat him in sparring many times and she's female, so she's clearly stronger than Magus despite Magus being in a male body, BUT Magus felt that Terra could be even more stronger if she was to take a male body as well.

 

 

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Oh absolutely. The problem is that aforesaid genius is taking that seriously extremist fringe and pretending that it is our mainstream. Somewhat similar to taking me and saying all Danes are like me. This would come as a rude surprise to the rest of my countrymen.

Or like taking the KKK as an example of the beliefs of Christianity.

[Don Edwards 561]

On 6/20/2018 at 10:19 AM, The Old Hack said:

No, I did not know that feminists insist on parthenogenetic reproduction, either. I feel quite put out that my fellow feminists have not let me in on this part of our agenda.

 

15 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I suspect there are feminist like that.

There are - on pretty much every fringe - people perfectly willing to dictate numerous details of how everyone else MUST live, usually in the name of letting people be free to live as they like. (You can buy any color Ford model T you like, so long as you like black.) The let's-eliminate-males-so-women-can-live-as-they-like fringe of feminism does exist, I've seen it, and I consider it just as immoral and slightly less realistic as the let's-eliminate-homosexuals crowd. While I've never seen parthenogenesis explicitly promoted as preferable, the possibility is a high-probability side effect of devising means by which women can reproduce without men.

I would love for there to be options for lesbian couples to have children that are biologically theirs, not one-of-theirs-plus-someone-else's. Even parthenogenesis for women with exceptionally large egos. And the same thing for males, although that obviously poses certain additional difficulties. However, I don't think anyone other than the people involved should be compelled to pay for it, nor should other options be eliminated.

(In the EGSverse, with the TFG and artificial insemination  - or instead of AI, in-vitro fertilization and possibly a host-mother - pretty much anyone is capable of parthenogenesis.)

[hkmaly 490]

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

but we know Magus wasn't around at party.

The party hadn't started yet because the others hadn't arrived, by he was at Tedd's on Grace's birthday and had been observing her emotions just prior to attempting to get her to zap Elliot. After failing to do so (Ellen zapped Tedd instead) Helena and Demetrius "chased" him off.

If Magus had felt he could come back and observe more (obviously he didn't), he would have heard Ellen talking about here second life experience with Nanase and how she felt about being who she is.

Yes, he was there and was chased off. And if you look at the strip I posted, Helena and Demetrius stayed at the party and made sure he did NOT return, which means he did NOT heard Ellen talking about her second life experience or how she felt about being who she is.

Seriously, this is one of few cases where we are SURE he was not observing. Not that Ellen would know about that, as I mentioned.

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And we are not sure how long they would need to stay that way to get working sperm.

Grace told Sarah that a male turned female would have to remain female for several days before pregnancy was possible. Didn't say anything about female turned male though, but I would think that if both had to remain in those forms for several days Grace would have said "both of you would need to stay in your forms for several days before you can start worrying about pregnancy." My guess is either females turned male are ready to go, or they don't take nearly as long to get ready.

She SAID several days, however there were speculations here on forum that it's related to the fact males are transformed to females in the phase of uterine cycle just after menstruation and that similarly, females turned males will need as long as sperm develops to be able to get someone pregnant. I'm not sure if anyone known how long that is.

... probably not, given google search claiming sperm takes 2.5-3 months to mature.

Anyway, the point is we can't be sure, although I agree that unless Grace wasn't sure herself, it should be less than for males turned females.

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

There are extremists in all groups, and sadly many people focus on those when referring to said group. The loudest ones, while there may be few, still create the image.

Many people focus on extremists BECAUSE they are the loudest ones, yes.

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

Also, is it bad that I've become cynical to think that many of the loud speakers are trolls trying to sabotage groups who are honestly trying to do good things?

You call THAT cynical? I think that assuming there are people so stupid they can honestly believe in the cause and STILL sabotage it worse than deliberate trolls is much more cynical.

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Not at magic. At fighting.

Not so much that men are better, just that the male body is better suited for it, as Magus has said, Terra has beat him in sparring many times and she's female, so she's clearly stronger than Magus despite Magus being in a male body, BUT Magus felt that Terra could be even more stronger if she was to take a male body as well.

Yes, however my point was that it was not magic itself male bodies are better for, but fight, including fight with magic. Although Magus was specifically talking about upper body strength ...

9 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

12 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Oh absolutely. The problem is that aforesaid genius is taking that seriously extremist fringe and pretending that it is our mainstream. Somewhat similar to taking me and saying all Danes are like me. This would come as a rude surprise to the rest of my countrymen.

Or like taking the KKK as an example of the beliefs of Christianity.

As if KKK would be only group claiming to be Christian and directly violating basic Christian values (and 10 commandments, although as I understand those are not supposed to be core of Christianity now).

2 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

(In the EGSverse, with the TFG and artificial insemination  - or instead of AI, in-vitro fertilization and possibly a host-mother - pretty much anyone is capable of parthenogenesis.)

Probably. Would need to be tested. Genomic imprinting is not completely understood, there might be some unknown mechanism (part of or similar to genomic imprinting) which would sabotage such reproduction. After all, Uryuom egg needs enough DNA from at least two sources and we don't know if this safety feature is part of Uryuom egg or works independently as well.

Also note that while apparently still called parthenogenesis, it would be recombination of genes from two different reproductive cells with different subset of parent DNA, so the result  wouldn't be clone. Statistically, from the gene variety point of view, it would be even WORSE.

 

[The Old Hack 2,489]

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

As if KKK would be only group claiming to be Christian and directly violating basic Christian values (and 10 commandments, although as I understand those are not supposed to be core of Christianity now).

I think that by now they have been replaced by the Seven Deadly Sins. And in the process, the Sins transmuted into virtues.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,619]

Seven Deadly Virtues?

 

[The Old Hack 2,489]

1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Seven Deadly Virtues?

Sort of. They are still exactly what they used to be. They are just seen as virtuous by allegedly 'righteous Christians.'

[ijuin 594]

21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Normally, I would try to defend him with arguments like "If someone gets all news from internet, he might never knowingly meet non-radical feminist", but considering that genius failed to read the article he's citing, I suppose nothing short of brass knuckles with phrase "My girlfriend is a feminist" hitting him directly into forehead would help him to realize his mistake.

I STILL wouldn't be surprised if some radical feminist already wrote hundred of articles proposing that. There ARE at least articles like this ...

We may be getting into Poe's Law territory here . . .

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, ijuin said:

We may be getting into Poe's Law territory here . . .

More like inverse and/or the reason Poe's Law works.