Moperville PRT

[Don Edwards 548]

Elliot is certainly capable of qualifying as a Thinker, with that ability. But with KerPop's advisory that the rating is based on how one would fight them, I'm going to say he doesn't... because he isn't prone to thinking. But if he did, well, some of the recommended countermeasures (disrupt communications) would be ineffective...

Guardian form carries Thinker automatically, so incorporating a smartphone - while a nice non-magical enhancement - wouldn't add the category.

I just made a policy decision and revised the list to match. Copying powers from someone else doesn't put one (Ellen) in the category for those powers. Because the ability to copy powers means they potentially go in ALL categories, and doing that makes putting them in ANY category uninformative. However, that means I really need to put this ability in as a Trump power, which I had been reluctant to do. (It's also a Breaker power and a Thinker power.)

But observing a power and knowing what it is and can do is still a Thinker power, not a Trump power. According to me.

[KerPop42 0]

I agree with you on Elliot, for now. If Tedd gives him upgraded tech, like say infra-vision or the ability to trace cell phones, I think he would warrant some level. 

And Ellen's copy beam is definitely a Trump power. She's blaster-themed, but her copy beam isn't damaging,and it lets her interact with other powers. (Actually, I just realized that the Parahumans wiki might help provide some examples. I'm going to update the top post as well, but here's the wiki on powers. There are some minor spoilers: http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Classifications) An example of some other Trumps include Hatchet Face, who has an AOE power nullification, and Bonesaw, whose medical knowledge includes how powers interface with humans.

How is the copy spell a Breaker or Thinker power? I mean, it can grant those abilities, but that's situation based.

And I think Tedd's vision is a combination of the two; it interacts with powers, even if it doesn't affect them, but it's definitely a Thinker power, since it's all about data collection.

By the way, these powers are rated on a scale of 1-10, if that provides more flexibility.

[Don Edwards 548]

14 hours ago, KerPop42 said:

How is the copy spell a Breaker or Thinker power? I mean, it can grant those abilities, but that's situation based.

And I think Tedd's vision is a combination of the two; it interacts with powers, even if it doesn't affect them, but it's definitely a Thinker power, since it's all about data collection.

By the way, these powers are rated on a scale of 1-10, if that provides more flexibility.

The copy spell is a Breaker power because it temporarily adds the target's powers to Ellen's. (Whether it removes Ellen's powers is undetermined - it's part of the Guardian Form power that using IT temporarily removes any other powers. But if Ellen were to copy normal-Nanase, and then have the Guardian Form power but not use it, would she still have the FV5 beam? Dunno.)

And it's a Thinker power because it gives her a significant understanding of what someone else's powers are. She doesn't even have to wait for the other person to use them, like Tedd does (on the other hand she probably gets a less thorough understanding). And she can not only tell her teammates about those powers, but demonstrate them.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

Does availability of an ability factor into the relative power level?

Nanase's guardian form is incredibly powerful.  But Nanase can not access it freely.  The narrative suggests that Divine consent may be required to activate  Both times we have seen the Guardian form used in the story, the incident lasted less than one hour  And using it certainly causes a temporary loss of access to the rest of her magic after it is used.

Otherwise, Nanase might stay in Guardian form 24/7

Just like the old Voltron jokes.  Why not keep the Blazing Sword at the ready at all times?  Why separate into the lions?  And don't even mention the option with trucks, boats, and helicopters in space.

[Scotty 1,061]

The guardian form does have the ability to draw from other sources of magic, either from the person's own reserve of from the environment. In Moperville the duration of the form could last for a while as long as there's plenty of energy in the environment, Nanase could just keep moving around to keep her form going longer than normal, but yeah anywhere else and it's probably 15 minutes to an hour tops.

As for the Divine consent but, yeah, Nanase's first use was after she asked god for help, and then Ellen asked if it was alright to copy it, but whether or not it really was Divine consent is probably something that will never get answered. We know that magic has a flair for the dramatic, and seems to be capable to determining what spells someone should get, so one could argue that Magic itself is Divine in nature, but of course we have those that would abuse magic so one would wonder why a Divine power would give jerks the ability to use magic.

[Don Edwards 548]

Well, you know, if you look around in various mythologies...

• Not all divine beings are good
• Not all divine beings have complete control over who can draw upon their powers
• Not all great powers have anything to do with divinity

[The Phoenixian 9]

*Appears in thread, vibrating slightly, as if pulled in with great force and stopping suddenly.*

Something to consider about the EGS verse as compared to the Wormverse, is that the PRT ratings are developed for a completely different system of magic. EGS works via completely different rules and so may need a different categorization system. In large part the PRT rating system deals with commonalities between people who's powers are literally unique to themselves. EGS has varied and individual powers, but there's more commonalities and the actual mechanism of everything is much better understood.

For the sake of argument however, it's best to keep the ratings systems as they are rather than inventing something new.

First off, it's worth noting that the specific reason for the PRT rating system is to designate the type of threat quickly. The greatest overarching power takes precedence and if it's heavily intertwined with another, it's given a slash, such as in Master/Stranger 5 (As opposed to Master 5 Stranger 4). Actual usage of a power seems to matter a lot to it's rating. Notably, normals can get the "0" rating in a given category if they're dangerous enough.

 

The Trump ranting in particular is rare in the Wormverse, but in EGS it's going to apply to literally every Awakened, Immortal, and a few others. Anything that grants powers, changes powers, copies powers, or generally does anything to the powers themselves has a Trump rating.

Awakened probably have low Trump ratings, likely Trump 2 as a general rule, as it takes significant time and effort to acquire new spells but it is something you need to be aware of in each successive meeting. Immortals are a little higher, say 3 or 4, as they can grant permanent powers if the conditions are right (which could be easily dealt with on its own, but the rest of their capabilities interfere with that). Wizards would likely be highest in Trump rating, as they can actively pick up new powers fairly easily, though not instantly, and do so with little regard for many of the common rules that both Immortals and Awakened Mages follow.

Notably, Jerry specifically may well have previously had a higher trump rating than many Immortals due to creating the Hammer Statue. (Though it might be better to argue that that was not in fact a Trump effect but simply a very powerful, if relatively harmless, Tinker device.)

Tedd, for the most part, is likely not a Trump but a Tinker with a transformation specialty. Thinker/Tinker is most likely to be his primary rating as his vision grants him insight into magic, which is integral to his tinkering with watches and the TF gun.

Ellen's copy beam is likely grants her a low Trump rating at best: Say, Blaster/Changer X from her main general powerset with a "Sub Trump 1-2" from the copy beam: Combined with Nanase it's potent but that beam is specific in what powers it can copy and has other arbitrary limitations. (She wouldn't have been able to copy Not-Tengu for instance.)

[/talking about the trump rating]

On 5/3/2016 at 5:47 PM, KerPop42 said:

By the way, these powers are rated on a scale of 1-10, if that provides more flexibility.

Not quite: The rating system goes above ten, but it's rare. My personal take on it is that it goes from barely above average (1) to needing a trained well trained team or a typical cape (3) to city impacting (somewhere around 9-12: Master 9, according to the PRT quest documents, is the point where artillery is authorized.) to nation scale effects (Probably 14 or 16 given some of the background trivia regarding Sleeper's Stranger 14 rating) and so on.

Incidentally, I should link the PRT quest google document as it details a fair amount of stuff on classifications between pages 33 and 38.

Also: Hello again, good to see this place is back.

[Scotty 1,061]

3 hours ago, The Phoenixian said:

Immortals are a little higher, say 3 or 4

Gee, that'd even worse than the challenge rating 5 given to Pandora.

[HarJIT 97]

5 hours ago, The Phoenixian said:

The Trump ranting in particular is rare in the Wormverse, but in EGS it's going to apply to literally every Awakened, Immortal, and a few others. Anything that grants powers, changes powers, copies powers, or generally does anything to the powers themselves has a Trump rating.

(emphasis added) ... was that deliberate?

[Don Edwards 548]

An Awakened gaining a new power is a Breaker ability, not a Trump ability.

And I'd rate it as Breaker 0 - at most - because there's so little control over both when the new power will be acquired and what the new power will be. Seriously, a shopping trip that includes at least one of {library, bookstore, hardware store, hobby shop, craft store} is a greater Breaker power.

(This is just about the fact of being Awakened and the ability to gain new spells thereby. Not about the spells the Awakened individual might have - which may include some more-serious Breaker abilities.)

[The Phoenixian 9]

7 hours ago, HarJIT said:

(emphasis added) ... was that deliberate?

No, but I can see why you'd think it is.

8 hours ago, Scotty said:

Gee, that'd even worse than the challenge rating 5 given to Pandora.

Well, that Trump rating is hardly the only thing Immortals are capable of. I put it low because they can only give a person one spell, only as relates to bloodline or yearning, and one spell at a time. (Though being able to awaken individuals would bump it up a little higher.)

If it was just the Trump rating, you could probably defeat a great many plots simply by handing your government agents glasses that can see through clothing to find the mark. (Which makes you think about the paranormal investigations department's equipment...)

The problem is that their invisibility, and everything else they can do, greatly compounds the effort of doing so. Which goes under all their other ratings, like the giant Stranger rating. So the Trump rating itself may be low, but it synergizes very well with everything else.

(Which sort of breaks what I said earlier about having a single overarching rating... Though the prevalence of multiple, more diverse, powers absolutely warrants it. CURSE YOU DIFFERENT PHYSICS SYSTEMS FOR MAKING THIS COMPLICATED!)

5 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

An Awakened gaining a new power is a Breaker ability, not a Trump ability.

And I'd rate it as Breaker 0 - at most - because there's so little control over both when the new power will be acquired and what the new power will be. Seriously, a shopping trip that includes at least one of {library, bookstore, hardware store, hobby shop, craft store} is a greater Breaker power.

(This is just about the fact of being Awakened and the ability to gain new spells thereby. Not about the spells the Awakened individual might have - which may include some more-serious Breaker abilities.)

What's your definition for Breaker abilities?

My thoughts on Breaker abilities was that it was specifically about "breaking physics" especially (though not strictly) in regards to shifting into a form that interacts with the world differently. IE: Turning into living smoke in a humanoid shape that can pass through walls. Or cancelling momentum of a fast moving object that's going to hit you.

[Don Edwards 548]

3 hours ago, The Phoenixian said:

What's your definition for Breaker abilities?

My thoughts on Breaker abilities was that it was specifically about "breaking physics" especially (though not strictly) in regards to shifting into a form that interacts with the world differently. IE: Turning into living smoke in a humanoid shape that can pass through walls. Or cancelling momentum of a fast moving object that's going to hit you.

According to the PRT power classification list that was linked to early on in this thread, a Breaker "Has the ability to alter themselves to a different state in which they maintain different abilities. Appends other powers, but only in this state. Can also include general altered states." I think the point of the name is that your knowledge of the character's powers is suddenly and significantly broken.

Someone who violates the laws of physics could be in any of several categories (in fact, it's possible to come up with a power that violates the laws of physics for almost all of the categories). I would not count your "living smoke" guy as a Breaker unless there are things he can do in that condition that he CANNOT do otherwise (or vice versa) and are not part of the inherent differences between large solid objects and smoke (the ability to pick up an object would not qualify). Mister Smoke is a Changer (changes his own body) and a Stranger (can infiltrate). Cancelling momentum of an incoming projectile sounds like a Brute (enhanced strength or durability).

Nanase's fairy spells, which she can't use in non-fairy forms, make her power of going into fairy form a Breaker ability. The fact that she loses the ability to go into fairy form (along with all her other spells) when she invokes her guardian form makes the latter also a Breaker ability (of course, so do her increased durability such as blocking swords with her tails, her high-speed flight, her battle awareness... - all of which don't work in non-guardian forms..

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

46 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

"Has the ability to alter themselves to a different state in which they maintain different abilities. Appends other powers, but only in this state. Can also include general altered states."

that label only works if you treat Awakening as an altered state of being, rather than the activation of powers. Otherwise there's no underlying change of state.

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

20 hours ago, The Phoenixian said:

(Which sort of breaks what I said earlier about having a single overarching rating... Though the prevalence of multiple, more diverse, powers absolutely warrants it. CURSE YOU DIFFERENT PHYSICS SYSTEMS FOR MAKING THIS COMPLICATED!)

Yeah, the setting does kinda break the classification system. Also, Justin demonstrated ages ago that even Dreamers can use basic illusions if they know how (if he was already awakened Pandora wouldn't have needed to mark and awaken him later), so that floods the field with Stranger powers of varying tiers just to start.

[Matoyak 51]

On 5/13/2016 at 7:08 PM, The Phoenixian said:

(Though being able to awaken individuals would bump it up a little higher.)

This is a thing they can do.

On 5/13/2016 at 11:33 PM, InfiniteRemnant said:

On 5/13/2016 at 10:44 PM, Don Edwards said:

"Has the ability to alter themselves to a different state in which they maintain different abilities. Appends other powers, but only in this state. Can also include general altered states."

that label only works if you treat Awakening as an altered state of being, rather than the activation of powers. Otherwise there's no underlying change of state.

Huh? How so?

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

the line originally quoted from the PRT site specifically says "alter themselves to a different state", however, being awakened isn't always an altered state of being.

Justin is exactly the same person now that he always has been both mentally and physically, yet we know for a fact that he awakened (quietly it seems) some time during squirrel prophet, as indicated by going from having a mark at the start to not having one at the end.

the underlying requirement of the powers only being present in an altered state of being isn't being met. Therefore awakening does not by itself make one a Breaker.

[Don Edwards 548]

14 minutes ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

the line originally quoted from the PRT site specifically says "alter themselves to a different state", however, being awakened isn't always an altered state of being.

Justin is exactly the same person now that he always has been both mentally and physically, yet we know for a fact that he awakened (quietly it seems) some time during squirrel prophet, as indicated by going from having a mark at the start to not having one at the end.

the underlying requirement of the powers only being present in an altered state of being isn't being met. Therefore awakening does not by itself make one a Breaker.

That depends on what one considers an "altered state".

Going from having N spells to having N+1 spells is indeed an alteration of one's state. And Nanase was deliberately triggering it by frequent surreptitious magic use, so to some extent she was altering herself.

However, it's a one-way alteration - as far as we know -  and her control is really weak. As I think I said earlier, going to the library and reading a how-to book (supplemented by going to an appropriate store for any necessary tools or supplies) is a better Breaker power, because one can control both what new ability is acquired and when.

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

i admit, i haven't finished reading the source material that was linked earlier, so i might have missed something, but it seems like altered state in this context specifically refers to "turns into something physically different from your default form"

Like Hulk vs Bruce Banner. THAT kind of altered state.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

25 minutes ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

i admit, i haven't finished reading the source material that was linked earlier, so i might have missed something, but it seems like altered state in this context specifically refers to "turns into something physically different from your default form"

Like Hulk vs Bruce Banner. THAT kind of altered state.

And here I thought all you needed to do was to drop acid. Nothing is ever simple, is it. *muttermuttergrumble*

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

It's also possible i'm misunderstanding something due to the category names being frustratingly easy to mix up.

[The Phoenixian 9]

2 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

i admit, i haven't finished reading the source material that was linked earlier, so i might have missed something, but it seems like altered state in this context specifically refers to "turns into something physically different from your default form"

Like Hulk vs Bruce Banner. THAT kind of altered state.

When it comes to canonical examples, you've got:

Shadow Stalker: The living smoke person mentioned earlier: shifts between being human to a smokelike form that can pass through glass and thin walls.
Fenja and Menja: Identical twins who grow to giant sizes, taking less damage from attacks the bigger they get.
Legend: Shoots lasers as a blaster power, can also turn into an energy state that absorbs damage and grants him greater speed at the cost of cognitive functions.

The general rule of breaker powers seems to be that it's a very specific state you shift to and back from.

Non-breakers for contrast:

Eidolon: Trump: At any moment will have three random powers appropriate to his situation. At any time one may be dismissed to gain another.
Crawler: Changer, any time he's hurt by something his body alters to adapt to it. Changes are permanent and based in biology. Regenerates and spits acid.
Sundancer: Blaster, creates a sun hot sphere that grows and moves on command, the notable "resemblance to a breaker" part of power is that she has an aura of normal temperature around her that keeps her from being fried to a crisp.
Glaistig Uaine: Trump: As per Eidolon, has three powers at any given time, the difference is that she chooses which ones. Any time a superpowered individual dies near her she gains their power for her collection and can thenceforth call on it at any time.

-----------

Worm's a pretty popular fanfiction setting on some sites, so here's another resource, for those interested: the Word of God thread. I'll link all the specific posts I referenced.

Be warned: there's quite a lot of stuff there.

-------------

On the other side of the original post, thoughts on how the PRT would set up in Moperville and what strategy they'd use.

With the PRT you have the numbered departments, 1-67, for the 67 largest cities and thereafter you have the special zones with their own departments, either for purposes of quarantine or keeping an eye on a cape town, but the majority of cities and towns with at least one notable cape have PRT offices: Not fully staffed departments but there to keep an eye on things.

Notably, Worm's main city "Brockton Bay" is a special, zone though it's never outright mentioned in story. Specially, it's noted to be a "hive of scum and villainy" (distinct from designation HOSV) and be a "cape town"

Quanrantine zones are mostly for the really really important areas. Places where keeping things in order keeps the fate of the city, and far more, in the balance.

In Moperville's case, the PRT might be in the midst of considering setting up a special office and calling it a cape town, but it isn't likely to be one yet. (Brockton Bay, notably, had over thirty capes between its various villain groups.)

Still, due to a head honcho of the paranormal investigations department living there and a few paranormals such as Raven, you do likely have a branch office and as the energy clog starts to make the lake of magical power and Pandora starts triggering single power mages, it's going to start seeing a bit more activity.

Pandora showing herself on camera may draw eyes, but I'd expect that the the new years "Not-Tengu" brainwashing incident and the following Griffon in the mall incident are probably the point where people really start talking about doing something.

[ijuin 572]

7 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

i admit, i haven't finished reading the source material that was linked earlier, so i might have missed something, but it seems like altered state in this context specifically refers to "turns into something physically different from your default form"

Like Hulk vs Bruce Banner. THAT kind of altered state.

So, under that definition, that puts Grace, Nanase, and Elliot under "altering state".

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, ijuin said:

So, under that definition, that puts Grace, Nanase, and Elliot under "altering state".

Grace would certainly be the highest level of the three, followed by Elliot, then Nanase. While Nanase's guardian form is powerful, the fact that it burns out her magic for at least a day limits her to only use it as a last resort option. Elliot's superhero form has quite a few perks that he's still learning about, his ability to morph into any female form is pretty good for letting him blend into a crowd easily. Grace, while she can only get new forms by getting zapped, she gets to keep the ability to change into them afterwards, and her ability to mix and match features plus adjust sizes and such puts her at par with Elliot's morphing ability (with the bonus of male forms maybe pushing her ability a bit higher than Elliot's), her omega form is probably a lot stronger than Cheerleadra though. She also has telekinesis which allows her to fly, lift objects, create a shield and even destroy stuff (she shattered the goo's tendrils), she can also morph into full squirrel form to get through small spaces and hide from stuff, or spy on people if needed.

[Don Edwards 548]

8 hours ago, The Phoenixian said:

The general rule of breaker powers seems to be that it's a very specific state you shift to and back from.

I thought the point of the breaker designation was that the character can, deliberately and at his own discretion, change what powers he has. Simply being Awakened would be a very weak breaker power because the change - acquiring new spells - is slow, unreliable, one-way, and with no control over what the new spells would be. Fairy-form is a much greater Breaker power because Nanase can do (and undo) it at will, quickly, and (assuming she's up-to-date on the contents of her spellbook) knows exactly what powers she will get.

8 hours ago, The Phoenixian said:

Eidolon: Trump: At any moment will have three random powers appropriate to his situation. At any time one may be dismissed to gain another.

And I thought the point of the trump designation was copying, altering, or suppressing SOMEONE ELSE's powers.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

Glaistig reminds me of a horrible character from a spoof game a friend of mine once ran. We were deliberately trying to come up with broken concepts. So he invented Dead Dennis. Dead Dennis was unkillable due to already being dead and had all the powers of every single dead superbeing. He could of course use all of them at the same time without limitations.

He did not work well in teams. His first line was always 'Interesting powers you guys have.'