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Story: Friday 24 Feb 2017

124 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

(Hmmm ... how many mistakes were made when copying Quran and did someone of those who did them survived?)

You know that even asking that question can cause a fatwa to be issued for your death, right?  It is a major article of faith that it can't change.

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3 minutes ago, mlooney said:

You know that even asking that question can cause a fatwa to be issued for your death, right?  It is a major article of faith that it can't change.

IIRC the official language of the Koran is ancient Arabic.  When people memorize Koran verses, they are rote-memorizing passages in a language they do not understand and are not trained to understand.  The cleric tells them what it means.

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17 minutes ago, mlooney said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

(Hmmm ... how many mistakes were made when copying Quran and did someone of those who did them survived?)

You know that even asking that question can cause a fatwa to be issued for your death, right?  It is a major article of faith that it can't change.

You might want to mention it to people on this wiki. I think that if someone wanted to kill everyone who says stuff like this on Internet they couldn't be killing them one by one, they would need some way to kill lot of them at once ... oh wait ...

(BTW, war against Islamic state would be much simpler if they didn't cheated and used weapons build with knowledge not contained in Quran.)

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8 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

You might want to mention it to people on this wiki. I think that if someone wanted to kill everyone who says stuff like this on Internet they couldn't be killing them one by one, they would need some way to kill lot of them at once ... oh wait ...

(BTW, war against Islamic state would be much simpler if they didn't cheated and used weapons build with knowledge not contained in Quran.)

I don't need to ask them; I just need to ask Salman Rushdie about it.

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3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... and I would like to add that this is in BIBLE. One would expect people making copies of Bible would be extra careful out of fear they are risking not only fine, but possibly their soul. Therefore, I would take it as proof that humans are not capable of copying longer text without errors.

(Hmmm ... how many mistakes were made when copying Quran and did someone of those who did them survived?)

 

Well, considering that it was originally written in Arabic, and there was no such thing as a standard for written Arabic until years after the guy who originally put the text on paper died (besides which he was illiterate)... possibly quite a lot. Or possibly none at all. But I wouldn't bet on the latter.

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

Longer texts? I sometimes have trouble making it all the way through a sentence without messing it up somehow.

Me too... and that's when I'm writing original stuff, let alone when I'm copying.

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15 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Translation "inaccuracies" are especially problematic because lot of phrases CANT be translated correctly even if God himself would be doing the translation (and I don't think there is any Christians claiming that ... or are they?)

On the other hand, even translation "inaccuracies" are nothing compared to the fact that bible lost whole BOOKS.

To be fair to Bible translators, some of them really do the best they can humanly possible. They study Aramaic and linguistics and take degrees in both as aid in their work, as well as a degree in the language they are translating into. They do really impressive work with that, but the sad truth is that the best humanly possible work is still fallible -- and worse yet, often subject to politics coming from higher (also human) authorities.

And some of the most used Bibles in the world have scarcely been held to such standards. The KJV, for example, was created by translators who wanted to curry favour with the King and they wrote it in a faux-ancient 'dialect' they made up to sound impressive. Admittedly it does sound bloody impressive but I am afraid this did nothing for its accuracy.

14 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Me too... and that's when I'm writing original stuff, let alone when I'm copying.

Somehow it is harder for me when I am copying, especially in English. Maybe it is because I get bored doing it, I am not sure. I might just be a klutz.

 

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5 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

To be fair to Bible translators, some of them really do the best they can humanly possible. They study Aramaic and linguistics and take degrees in both as aid in their work, as well as a degree in the language they are translating into. They do really impressive work with that, but the sad truth is that the best humanly possible work is still fallible -- and worse yet, often subject to politics coming from higher (also human) authorities.

And some of the most used Bibles in the world have scarcely been held to such standards. The KJV, for example, was created by translators who wanted to curry favour with the King and they wrote it in a faux-ancient 'dialect' they made up to sound impressive. Admittedly it does sound bloody impressive but I am afraid this did nothing for its accuracy.

... yes, another topic: when the mistakes are not really mistakes ... any good examples?

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Don't forget Red Dwarf and Rimmer's family's Seventh Day Advent Hoppists. Their bible had a misprint:

Quote

It was all based on 1 Corinthians 13, where it says “faith, hop and charity, and the greatest of these is hop.” So that’s what they did every seventh day. I tell you, Sunday lunchtimes were a nightmare. Hopping around the table serving soup. We all had to wear sou’esters and asbestos underwear.

 

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... yes, another topic: when the mistakes are not really mistakes ... any good examples?

I suppose the very best example of this would be the Nicene Convocation back around 300 AD or so where Christians from all over Europe convened to decide what should actually go in the Bible. Chaosium published an amazing little card game based on exactly this; it was called Credo ('I believe.') A lot of politicking went on to determine what got to go in and what would be left out!

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20 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

I suppose the very best example of this would be the Nicene Convocation back around 300 AD or so where Christians from all over Europe convened to decide what should actually go in the Bible. Chaosium published an amazing little card game based on exactly this; it was called Credo ('I believe.') A lot of politicking went on to determine what got to go in and what would be left out!

Note: while it might not matter few centuries later, I think it's noteworthy that the game was not published around 300AD but around 1993AD. :)

I was going to say I meant something more recent, but when looking at Creed I found this little gem:

Wikipedia said:

The Vatican stated in 1995 that, while the words καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ ("and the Son") would indeed be heretical if used with the Greek verb ἐκπορεύομαι[39]—which is one of the terms used by St. Gregory of Nazianzus and the one adopted by the Council of Constantinople[35][40][41]—the word Filioque is not heretical when associated with the Latin verb procedo and the related word processio. Whereas the verb ἐκπορεύομαι (from ἐκ, "out of" and πορεύομαι "to come or go") in Gregory and other Fathers necessarily means "to originate from a cause or principle," the Latin term procedo (from pro, "forward;" and cedo, "to go") has no such connotation and simply denotes the communication of the Divine Essence or Substance. In this sense, processio is similar in meaning to the Greek term προϊέναι, used by the Fathers from Alexandria (especially Cyril of Alexandria) as well as others.[35][42] Partly due to the influence of the Latin translations of the New Testament (especially of John 15:26), the term ἐκπορευόμενον (the present participle of ἐκπορεύομαι) in the creed was translated into Latin as procedentem. In time, the Latin version of the Creed came to be interpreted in the West in the light of the Western concept of processio, which required the affirmation of the Filioque to avoid the heresy of Arianism.[35][43]

Apparently, the topic is still live.

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10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Apparently, the topic is still live.

And it's all Greek to me. Or Latin. Or whatever.

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16 minutes ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

And it's all Greek to me. Or Latin. Or whatever.

At this point I don't care unless they finally decide to include 'supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.'

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On 3/10/2017 at 6:09 PM, The Old Hack said:

At this point I don't care unless they finally decide to include 'supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.'

I don't think we'll get that until Vatican III, possibly IV.

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3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I don't think we'll get that until Vatican III, possibly IV

The Godfather I & II were a great pair of movies that were in no way helped by Godfather III.  With almost all of the lead figures of Vatican I & II now gone, a re-launch of the Vatican franchise would probably be better received by the audience.

Unless, of course, we can get Tom Lehrer to do the musical score for this one

 

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3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I don't think we'll get that until Vatican III, possibly IV.

Based on time between Vatican I and Vatican II that will be Thursday, June 11, 2048, more or less.

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Posted (edited)

Copy errors.

A new monk arrives at the monastery. He is assigned to help the other monks in copying the old texts by hand. He notices, however, that they are copying copies, and not the original books.

So, the new monk goes to the Abbot to ask him about this. He points out that if there was an error in the first copy, that error would be continued in all of the other copies. The Abbot says, "We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son."

So, he goes down into the cellar with one of the copies to check it against the original. Hours later, nobody has seen him. So, one of the monks goes downstairs to look for him. He hears sobbing coming from the back of the cellar and finds the old monk leaning over one of the original books crying. He asks what's wrong.

"The word is celebrate," the Abbot said with tears in his eyes.  "CELEBRATE!"

Edited by Pharaoh RutinTutin
spelling
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9 hours ago, mlooney said:
13 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I don't think we'll get that until Vatican III, possibly IV.

Based on time between Vatican I and Vatican II that will be Thursday, June 11, 2048, more or less.

So, 15 years between first contact with Vulcans?

2 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

"The word is celebrate," the Abbot said with tears in his eyes.  "CELEBRATE!"

He's right. The word "celebrate" is in Bible 7 times, the word celibate not at all.

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36 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The word "celebrate" is in Bible 7 times,

I couldn't help but notice that the word "Celebrate" appears most often in books that are not universally accepted by all congregations.  And of the generally accepted canonical Old Testament, it appears most in what I find to be the most tedious of all the books.

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On 3/13/2017 at 7:09 PM, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

I couldn't help but notice that the word "Celebrate" appears most often in books that are not universally accepted by all congregations.  And of the generally accepted canonical Old Testament, it appears most in what I find to be the most tedious of all the books.

Now I want to go find a way to search the Apocrypha too, and see how they compare.

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9 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Now I want to go find a way to search the Apocrypha too, and see how they compare.

It was in that list.  Leviticus and Isiah are generally considered Canonical, that is, accepted as sacred by almost all Jewish and Christian congregations.  Tobit and First and Second Maccabees are found in the Septuagint translation and considered Canonical, Deuterocanonical, or Apocryphal depending on which congregation you ask.

My own concordance, NRSV, gives examples of Celebrate and Celebrated in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Ezra, Nehemiah, Psalms, Ezekiel, Nahum, Additions to Esther, 1 Maccabees, Luke, 1 Corinthians, and Revelation.

Now if you are thinking Pseudepigraphical books, well that is a another Epistle altogether.

 

Edited by Pharaoh RutinTutin
Relevant detail added

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2 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

My own concordance, NRSV, gives examples of Celebrate and Celebrated in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Ezra, Nehemiah, Psalms, Ezekiel, Nahum, Additions to Esther, 1 Maccabees, Luke, 1 Corinthians, and Revelation.

My concordance, NSFW, primarily relies on Pratchett, Gaiman and to a lesser degree GRRM. Normally the pastor reads from the Buggre Alle This bible.

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