story Story: Wednesday, April 6, 2016

[Xenophon Hendrix 47]

Noah being Noriko's kid explains why he ended up with Raven. Furthermore, nothing in the comic states that Noriko's other son has to be several years younger than Tedd. Given an Uryuom egg, she could have made a genetic donation at any time.

Another thing to consider: given that Noriko presumably talks to Tedd and Edward on the telephone once in a while -- she had to explain why she can't come home even for Christmas -- if she had another son in the conventional fashion, Tedd would almost certainly know that he has a younger brother. But he never mentions it. The author set up the big revelation as a surprise for the readers.

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

53 minutes ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

Noah being Noriko's kid explains why he ended up with Raven

That argument is debatable at best. Tedd got left behind seemingly because he has no powers, Noah DOES have powers, what would be the motivation for ditching him?

59 minutes ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

Furthermore, nothing in the comic states that Noriko's other son has to be several years younger than Tedd.

We've been over the logic behind the age gap repeatedly. no, it's not explicitly stated, but it shouldn't need to be when there are enough hints to piece it together.

1 hour ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

Given an Uryuom egg, she could have made a genetic donation at any time.

Except if that were the case her walking database of an Ex-husband would know she's gone behind his back, yet the only story indications thus far about tension between them have implied her putting her monster-hunting career before her family.

1 hour ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

given that Noriko presumably talks to Tedd and Edward on the telephone once in a while

We've been given every indication they're divorced and she's a deadbeat parent. why would you assume communication?

1 hour ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

if she had another son in the conventional fashion

then the child would need to have been born after her departure for Tedd not to know about them, which brings us back to the age gap, which no one's managed to whittle the estimate for down below 3 years.

[hkmaly 490]

7 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

9 hours ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

given that Noriko presumably talks to Tedd and Edward on the telephone once in a while

We've been given every indication they're divorced and she's a deadbeat parent. why would you assume communication?

The "can't come home even for Christmas" might've easily been said by Edward. Only thing which is unlikely to be said by Edward is that Noriko was "your mother left because you are such a disappointment", and even THAT might've been conclusion Tedd came with himself based on something else Edward said.

Also, while Tedd mentioned that Noriko is "somewhere in Europe", this may NOT be true - it may be lie Edward said to explain why she can't visit. On the other hand, it sounds unlikely she's in US, in monster hunting business, and doesn't at least pay attention to important points in Tedd's life.

[Matoyak 51]

17 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

why is everyone so hung up on egg-theory relatives anyway? while the hidden relative thing works for a few (well, just the twins in my eyes, but whatever), for several of them, particularly Noah, they actually work better if they're NOT related to that many of the other cast members. noah's back story works fine as it is, but him having additional family just raises the question of why he didn't track them down to ask for help during his whole revenge kick.

~nods nods nods~ I've grown to rather dislike the egg-related relative theories. They're brought out for every "what if x was related to y???!!!" theory someone dreams up. It'll eventually be true, because it's used for darn near everyone with every potential combination. I just find it the most boring possibility and that you really have to stretch to make it work.

[Xenophon Hendrix 47]

Assuming Noriko is one of Noah's biological parents, she wouldn't be one of his custodial parents. His custodial parents were murdered by Damian. I suspect Noriko heard about the murder and asked her mentor Raven to take Noah so that she didn't have to give up her very important monster hunting.

As for the age gap being proved, I believe it has not, not at all.

Anyway, I assume the various Uryuom-egg theories will eventually be proved or disproved. I hope I live long enough to see it. Personally, my quatloos are on Noriko being a genetic donor for Noah and on Raven, probably without his knowledge, being a genetic donor, or at least a genetic ancestor, of Susan and Diane via Uryuom egg. I don't believe El Shive had Grace's disguise look like Susan just for giggles. The author is known to drop a hint that turns out to be important years later (in real time) that looks just like a throw-away bit. See the note on the refrigerator and Elliot talking to the griffin at school for examples.

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, Matoyak said:

It'll eventually be true, because it's used for darn near everyone with every potential combination.

Success!

38 minutes ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

Personally, my quatloos are on Noriko being a genetic donor for Noah and on Raven, probably without his knowledge, being a genetic donor, or at least a genetic ancestor, of Susan and Diane via Uryuom egg. I don't believe El Shive had Grace's disguise look like Susan just for giggles.

It's true that Tedd's "I'll never have a spell of my own" provides great example of how denying something can be hint. On the other hand, remember that Susan is natural blonde, just like Diane, while Grace's disguise had black hair just like Raven. Also, they don't show any signs of being Seyunolu, and Noah's counterexample notwithstanding, them having earth magic talent is NEGATIVE sign for them having anything to do with Uryuom.

WAIT. What if them being ADRIANs kids is just red herring? They may be related without them being Adrians daughters. He directly say that he would like to pass Grace as niece, not daughter. What if Susan and Diane are PANDORA's kids and Adrian half-sisters? (And before thinking about Pandora giving birth, remember that she might just as easily be their "father".) Or actual nieces, with Raven's sibling being the parent who found how to get over the "half-immortals can't have kids" rule.

[Sjmcc13 42]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

WAIT. What if them being ADRIANs kids is just red herring? They may be related without them being Adrians daughters. He directly say that he would like to pass Grace as niece, not daughter. What if Susan and Diane are PANDORA's kids and Adrian half-sisters? (And before thinking about Pandora giving birth, remember that she might just as easily be their "father".) Or actual nieces, with Raven's sibling being the parent who found how to get over the "half-immortals can't have kids" rule.

Considering that Susan and Diane are naturally blond (we know Susan is or was at least, and the assumption is they are identical twins) and Raven has black hair, the genetics of hair color says Raven is not their father. There is a resemblance, but there are multiple things that could account for that, for all we know their family tree could trace back to the same region as Raven's father and features common in that region would be enough to make many think there is a relationship between 2 people especially in a multicultural society, they could even be descendants of Raven's mortal father. or pure coincidence. 

[hkmaly 490]

19 minutes ago, Sjmcc13 said:

Considering that Susan and Diane are naturally blond (we know Susan is or was at least, and the assumption is they are identical twins) and Raven has black hair, the genetics of hair color says Raven is not their father. There is a resemblance, but there are multiple things that could account for that, for all we know their family tree could trace back to the same region as Raven's father and features common in that region would be enough to make many think there is a relationship between 2 people especially in a multicultural society, they could even be descendants of Raven's mortal father. or pure coincidence. 

From storytelling perspective, the "features common in that region" would be equivalent to coincidence. Dan showing that the disguise looks like Susan is Chekhov's gun. I'm speculating how that metaphorical gun can be fired. I still think my explanation is more likely than Susan being Adrian Raven's daughter. Your explanation, while more likely outside fiction, would mean the gun will NOT be fired and poses question why Dan used two panels on it.

(There is another way to fire the gun: maybe it was just simplest way how could Dan drop the "half-immortals can't have kids" line and THAT will became important later.)

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

There is another way to fire the gun: maybe it was just simplest way how could Dan drop the "half-immortals can't have kids" line and THAT will became important later.

this explanation makes more sense than the innumerable egg theories, mainly because it doesn't involve introducing a rule seemingly for the sole purpose of breaking it.

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

4 hours ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

Assuming Noriko is one of Noah's biological parents, she wouldn't be one of his custodial parents.

Why assume that? in the scenario you propose, what reason is there for her not to be? 

[Don Edwards 548]

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Also, while Tedd mentioned that Noriko is "somewhere in Europe", this may NOT be true - it may be lie Edward said to explain why she can't visit. On the other hand, it sounds unlikely she's in US, in monster hunting business, and doesn't at least pay attention to important points in Tedd's life.

Well, we know she's been active outside the USA. Which is confirmed here.

[hkmaly 490]

31 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

Well, we know she's been active outside the USA. Which is confirmed here.

There are lot of locations which are neither US nor Europe, and she may travel a lot, up to the point of not really staying anywhere long enough to call it home.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

On 4/10/2016 at 4:14 AM, Scotty said:

As for why Susan would know when she was born, nothing too suspicious about that, some parents tell their kids that, Heck my photo album has the time I was born plus my weight and length marked down. Even if Susan was adopted Mr and Mrs Pompoms would have to have been given a copy of the birth certificate and any relevant information.

I was born at 6.15 PM on March 14, 1966. According to my mother, anyway.

 

4 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

Why assume that? in the scenario you propose, what reason is there for her not to be? 

For one thing, she is alive. Noah has stated that his parents are dead. It is not too large a presumption that he is speaking of his custodial parents, who may or may not have been his actual parents.

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

12 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

5 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

Why assume that? in the scenario you propose, what reason is there for her not to be? 

For one thing, she is alive. Noah has stated that his parents are dead. It is not too large a presumption that he is speaking of his custodial parents, who may or may not have been his actual parents.

actually i was asking that for the purpose of pointing out  one of the flaws in the logic of their being related in the first place.

the question isn't what part of Noah's back-story would require her not to be there, but what motivation she could have for not taking an active interest in a descendant who has the potential Tedd at that time lacked, and it can't be that she doesn't know about him, because that would derail the other half of Xenophon's argument the quote was taken from.

I want to see if he can actually come up with a sound argument for that. I'm betting he can't.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

Just now, InfiniteRemnant said:

I want to see if he can actually come up with a sound argument for that. I'm betting he can't.

I can. If we absolutely have to involve these bloody Uryuom eggs -- and in Noah's case, we unfortunately have to, because he is a known seyunolu -- she could have had her genetic material stolen and used in the egg without her knowledge.

A terrible thing to do to anyone, of course, but it would explain her lack of maternal involvement. It is going a wee bit too far to blame a person for not taking interest in a child they do not know exists.

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

1 minute ago, The Old Hack said:

5 minutes ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

I want to see if he can actually come up with a sound argument for that. I'm betting he can't.

I can. If we absolutely have to involve these bloody Uryuom eggs -- and in Noah's case, we unfortunately have to, because he is a known seyunolu -- she could have had her genetic material stolen and used in the egg without her knowledge.

A terrible thing to do to anyone, of course, but it would explain her lack of maternal involvement. It is going a wee bit too far to blame a person for not taking interest in a child they do not know exists.

I would accept that argument if it didn't undermine the scenario it's being applied to.

for reference:

9 hours ago, Xenophon Hendrix said:

Assuming Noriko is one of Noah's biological parents, she wouldn't be one of his custodial parents. His custodial parents were murdered by Damian. I suspect Noriko heard about the murder and asked her mentor Raven to take Noah so that she didn't have to give up her very important monster hunting.

In this scenario, she can't NOT be aware of him.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

4 minutes ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

I want to see if he can actually come up with a sound argument for that. I'm betting he can't.

The Moderator: Also, I must point out that the addition "I'm betting he can't" is assumptive about another poster's intelligence and rather insulting. Do NOT do that, or I will be forced to take steps as moderator. That is all.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

Just now, InfiniteRemnant said:

In this scenario, she can't NOT be aware of him.

I see. Nonetheless, I believe the implied argument is that by now Noriko is so career-focused that she does not wish to give up a great deal of her active time to tend a child. You do not even need to posit that Noriko is a monster to make this true. All you need is a situation where vampires, aberrations and other monsters are sufficiently numerous that the people trying to keep them down are working full time and still in danger of losing ground. It's the Batman/Superman problem, in a way -- it would be lovely to take time off to raise a family, but once the insane serial killer/planet destroying space warlord/related problem is running loose, it becomes hard to justify staying home and baking cookies.

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

Okay, I suppose you have a point there, but if the situation were that desperate i would expect more active effort towards recruiting individuals known to have powers. to go with your superhero metaphor, where's the JLU? The kids have been seen saving the day, it's shown up online and on tv, some of the incidents are weeks or months old at this point, DGB supposedly keeps tabs on them, and Susan has experience 'hunting' yet there hasn't been a peep in canon.

I dunno, maybe refusing to accept Xeno's theories is just me being cynical or stubborn, but they're full of holes and what if's, and every answer I've been hearing to those holes just raises more questions...

It just doesn't add up for me. I know there's nothing concrete, but at-least to me, It makes more sense for it to be false than true.

 

 

[The Old Hack 2,448]

3 minutes ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

It just doesn't add up for me. I know there's nothing concrete, but at-least to me, It makes more sense for it to be false than true.

And that is totally fair! You're entitled to your opinion. Just please try to not tack on unnecessary "I'm betting you can't"s, okay?

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

to be fair, that wasn't meant as a knock at anyone's intelligence. I didn't think an argument that answered that without causing other problems was possible, regardless of who it was from.

[Wildcat 37]

9 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Success!

It's true that Tedd's "I'll never have a spell of my own" provides great example of how denying something can be hint. On the other hand, remember that Susan is natural blonde, just like Diane, while Grace's disguise had black hair just like Raven. Also, they don't show any signs of being Seyunolu, and Noah's counterexample notwithstanding, them having earth magic talent is NEGATIVE sign for them having anything to do with Uryuom.

WAIT. What if them being ADRIANs kids is just red herring? They may be related without them being Adrians daughters. He directly say that he would like to pass Grace as niece, not daughter. What if Susan and Diane are PANDORA's kids and Adrian half-sisters? (And before thinking about Pandora giving birth, remember that she might just as easily be their "father".) Or actual nieces, with Raven's sibling being the parent who found how to get over the "half-immortals can't have kids" rule.

...ok, them being Pandora's kids would make things more interesting. Feasible if they're both adopted. The item summoning thing would probably come from the other parent. I'd expect some odd magic stuff that we haven't really seen if that was the case. They don't have the pointed ears though, and I think Raven has pronounced canines?

Their features would match 1/4 immortal, but although I don't count on it actually being impossible, I don't see it coming.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 hour ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

to be fair, that wasn't meant as a knock at anyone's intelligence. I didn't think an argument that answered that without causing other problems was possible, regardless of who it was from.

Unhappily, what counts on the 'net is not intent but result. As a moderator I am required to step in and deal with potential problems, and to me at least that came across as a little insulting. And I would far rather act early with a polite request than having to step into an all-out flame war where I have to hand out warning points and possibly temp bans.

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

Well, fair warning then, I'm usually about as blunt as a sledgehammer, but it's almost never meant maliciously, I'm just god-awful at tact.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 hour ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

Well, fair warning then, I'm usually about as blunt as a sledgehammer, but it's almost never meant maliciously, I'm just god-awful at tact.

Fair enough, I just have to be the one on top if misunderstandings or conflicts happen. I do my best to resolve these as diplomatically as possible.