Story: Wednesday, April 13, 2016

[Vorlonagent 442]

OK, agreed.  Jerry is a 4th side.  As I was writing a reply disagreeing with the idea, I talked my self into it.  I was thinking...

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Jerry's a bit player, he's only interested in the welfare of Grace, Sarah and Susan because...oh yeah right...2 Immortals recruited them for the side of good when they "should have gotten an adult".  And the vow isn't just for the three girls but extends to those close to them...

So yeah.  Jerry, perhaps unwillingly, is in the thick of it.  Side #4

[Scotty 1,061]

Yeah especically if his promise extends to all of Susan's friends, not just Sarah and Grace (Nanase's automatic because she was recruited with Susan, and Diane is Susan's sister) Elliot would be covered as well, so we'll have Helena and Demetrius as well as Jerry potentially protecting Elliot.

 

Hmm, this may be a twisted theory rather than a wild one, but we've seen Ellen nearly killed because someone believed she wasn't meant to exist. What if Elliot is being targeted for the same reason; There can be only 1 and the Colonel decided Elliot has to go regardless of him being the original.

[Vorlonagent 442]

30 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Yeah especically if his promise extends to all of Susan's friends, not just Sarah and Grace (Nanase's automatic because she was recruited with Susan, and Diane is Susan's sister) Elliot would be covered as well, so we'll have Helena and Demetrius as well as Jerry potentially protecting Elliot.

 

Hmm, this may be a twisted theory rather than a wild one, but we've seen Ellen nearly killed because someone believed she wasn't meant to exist. What if Elliot is being targeted for the same reason; There can be only 1 and the Colonel decided Elliot has to go regardless of him being the original.

Occam's razor says "no".  There's at least one big known reason for wanting Elliot out of the way: Reembodying Magus.

[hkmaly 490]

2 hours ago, Wildcat said:

If we hadn't met Jerry, I'd think all immortals are pretentious jerks that think they can do whatever they please to further their goals

I wouldn't be sure young Jerry isn't the same. He was lot of jerk when he was young last time and created the hammers, wasn't he? It's pretty common kind of behaviour between immortals (and Fae) in other "worlds" too.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

It still seems to me like Pandora's involvement with Magus that the whole "egg" challenge she sent to Edward was merely just Pandora wanting to have some fun because she was bored. And her current plan to "destroy the world" is a completely different goal she's set out to complete for her son. Of course I wouldn't be surprised if Pandora has some expectations that Magus will be a part in this new plan.

Well except I think Pandora is behind the clog/rise in ambient magic (which may or may not be related to the "egg" challenge) which seems important for the "destroy the world" plan - but started years ago.

 

[Matoyak 51]

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

No. What angels? There doesn't seem to be any angels in EGS, although this guy might try to pretend being one.

Oh aye?

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Well except I think Pandora is behind the clog/rise in ambient magic (which may or may not be related to the "egg" challenge) which seems important for the "destroy the world" plan - but started years ago.

Oh I agree that the clog is part of the "destroy the world" but only in it's current state of full clog, the original partial blockage, the one that the whale referred to when he stated the the energy in Moperville had been higher than it should be for much of Tedd's life, was likely another completely different plan of Pandora's. The reasons for the partial blockage and the "egg" are separate from the "destroy the world" plan, but there's no denying that Pandora has incorporated portions of those plans in the "destroy the world" plan, like instead of just a partial block, how about a complete clog. Instead of destroying Magus, rough him up a bit then turn him loose. Pepper the population with magic marks and let simmer for a while.

28 minutes ago, Matoyak said:

Oh aye?

 

Note that the next page, Abraham states that she's not an angel, then the page after that Nanase agrees.

[PSadlon 88]

Technically, Pandora's only bringing an end to the world as it currently operates. This may or may not result in actual deaths, excluding Adrian and her god-grandson (I suspect she doesn't really care if anyone else lives or dies beyond that), and massive physical destruction. It may or may not be any better than outright destroying the world but I think that's an important distinction.

[Scotty 1,061]

26 minutes ago, PSadlon said:

Technically, Pandora's only bringing an end to the world as it currently operates. This may or may not result in actual deaths, excluding Adrian and her god-grandson (I suspect she doesn't really care if anyone else lives or dies beyond that), and massive physical destruction. It may or may not be any better than outright destroying the world but I think that's an important distinction.

That's why I always put it in quotation marks, it's not literally destroying the world but a a change in how people interact with the world. Like going from stone age to bronze age to iron age, dark ages, renaissance.. heck we went through the nuclear, space, computer and now into the Internet age all within a span of like 70 years, each new age essentially destroying how we viewed and interacted with the world compared to the previous age, the moment we went from BC to AD in terms of how we refer to years can be seen as a world destroying event.

[partner555 170]

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I wouldn't be sure young Jerry isn't the same. He was lot of jerk when he was young last time and created the hammers, wasn't he? It's pretty common kind of behaviour between immortals (and Fae) in other "worlds" too.

 

The young Jerry we see now seems nice enough.

[PSadlon 88]

Even the hammers thing wasn't comparatively too bad, more of a tasteless practical joke than something actually mean spirited. That Les Immortals abused it for their aberration hunting & wasn't something his younger self could have predicted and even his older, much wiser self seemed a little surprised by and taken aback over. Also remember what Jerry said about one's basic nature carrying over from life to life even though the actual experiences do not and the learned knowledge only does if they die properly, a fact reinforced by Helena & Demetrius still doing the aberration hunting thing and tricking people to do it despite having little to no memories of their time as Les Immortals.

[Don Edwards 548]

7 hours ago, Scotty said:

People suggest that because he said "Pawn of Chaos" that means he's against Pandora, but Elliot isn't the only "pawn of Chaos", you have the entire main eight, Dex, Rhoda, Catalina, Luke and his friends, and lord knows how many others that Pandora has been manipulating.

Also, just because the Colonel is aware that Pandora has been manipulating Elliot, doesn't mean that this fact has anything to do with why he planned to get Elliot killed.

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Even the hammers thing wasn't comparatively too bad. More of a tasteless practical joke than something actually meanspirited. That Les Immortals abused it for their aberration hunting wasn't something his younger self could have predicted and even his older, much wiser self seemed a little surprised by and taken aback over.

Personally I think that their use of the hammers thing for the aberration hunt was pretty clever and quite justified. It's their shoving the jobs onto a couple of barely-teenage kids (or at least leaving the kids thinking it was up to them) that's a problem.

They could have done everything they did with Nanase and Susan, and said "But all this is so you can defend yourself in case the monster gets to you again first, before the proper authorities - whom we're about to go notify - get to the monster. They are better equipped, better trained, more experienced in magic, and PAID, to handle things like this. If possible, stay out of it." I would have had no problem with that.

[LivewareProblem 3]

On 4/13/2016 at 4:45 PM, PSadlon said:

It's a bit more than just that he tried to murder one of main character. Even if Elliot is being used an unwitting tool by Pandora, his killing him is not an acceptable first option. Last resort maybe, but first option is totally a dick move. Also what does he consider a complicated mess, It's something like murder a bunch of people then maybe murdering one person was better but it's still totally a dick move. If it's go through some of the more difficult but less blood thirsty solutions, he'd have a had a lot easier time and more support if he did that in the first place.

To an immortal, whether a mortal perishes now or of old age in fifty years makes very little difference. Death and mortality are something outside their experience. It's not hard to see why he'd have a callous indifference about killing one to advance some tangible goal.

[PSadlon 88]

While it was somewhat clever, how would you feel if you created a harmless joke and someone sold it as defense against serial killers to barely prepared, impressionable youths. Even if it worked, I'd find it yet another horrifyingly wrong thing about the situation on top of everything else. Sure, I'd be a bit impressed it worked as well as it did, but seriously, no just no. I mean, harken back to Greg's reasons for closing his dojo (besides the lack of paying customers).

[Scotty 1,061]

5 hours ago, LivewareProblem said:

To an immortal, whether a mortal perishes now or of old age in fifty years makes very little difference. Death and mortality are something outside their experience. It's not hard to see why he'd have a callous indifference about killing one to advance some tangible goal.

Pandora has been shown trying to teach Adrian lessons in mortality. While it's likely that is only to try to get Adrian to let loose of his restraints and start using his abilities more freely. I do wonder if she was faced with those lessons herself long ago, whether she came to the right conclusions or not is another thing though base of her interactions with Adrian, I'm leaning towards not.

5 hours ago, PSadlon said:

While it was somewhat clever, how would you feel if you created a harmless joke and someone sold it as defense against serial killers to barely prepared, impressionable youths. Even if it worked, I'd find it yet another horrifyingly wrong thing about the situation on top of everything else. Sure, I'd be a bit impressed it worked as well as it did, but seriously, no just no. I mean, harken back to Greg's reasons for closing his dojo (besides the lack of paying customers).

 

Things intended as practical jokes becoming useful is something that happens though, I've seen a few April Fools gags game developers have done get implemented in their game later because it turned out the community thought it was a great idea. Even though the hammers were intended as a silly method of using offensive behaviour as a tool for slapstick comedy. They did have the side effect of stunning aberrations because they were a magical weapon. Maybe if Helena and Demetrius had told them the hammer's origins (which they must have known or else how would they have told Susan where the atifact's location was?) Susan wouldn't have had such a negative reaction when Jerry told her.

Then again, if Susan didn't have a negative reaction, Jerry wouldn't have learned about Helena and Demetrius' involvement, and then wouldn't have promised to be Susan's ally, and wouldn't have prevented Diane from drinking the punch... You know, I'm wondering if Helena and Demetrius (before they died) counted on Susan eventually running into Jerry.

Let's wild theory this up for now. First off, we know Helena and Demetrius has been following Elliot for some time, even for a while before they died. They would have learned a thing or two about Elliot's friends (Tedd, Sarah, Nanase, Justin) They might have noticed the relation between Tedd and Nanase and their relation to Noriko, so they follow Nanase to France to make sure nothing bad happened to her, because Europe might have more magical dangers, or even the possibility of Noriko's enemies catching wind of Nanase being near and targeting her (Like Not_Tengu did). Susan gets attacked and they notice the resemblance between her and another girl that Nanase's interacted with (Diane) and believe there's something special about them. Helena and Demetrius just can't outright tell them about Diane or Noriko, so they set them up in such a way that will eventually bring Nanase and Susan to the truth. They tell them enough about the hammers for them to use them but not why they were originally created, they also tell them where the artifact is because they know that the creator(Jerry) would soon be resetting and ending the hammer enchantment, they wanted Susan and or Nanase to investigate and meet Jerry before he reset, Jerry would then unknowingly continue what Helena and Demetrius started.

[Wildcat 37]

It just occured to me that all the "friendly" immortals we know of are young, and I'm pretty sure that the colonel is older, not even mentioning Pandora.......

[ijuin 572]

Well, it is well-established that Immortals who are past their best-by date start to go crazy because everything seems "been there, done that", so they start to get into the extreme thrill-seeking by playing with metaphorical fire all the time.

[Wildcat 37]

14 hours ago, PSadlon said:

Technically, Pandora's only bringing an end to the world as it currently operates. This may or may not result in actual deaths, excluding Adrian and her god-grandson (I suspect she doesn't really care if anyone else lives or dies beyond that), and massive physical destruction. It may or may not be any better than outright destroying the world but I think that's an important distinction.

So Raven wants to be able to act more freely, and this is Pandora's stated reason for bringing the apocalypse. But Tedd outright wants to be able to tell everyone about magic, and it seems like the result of Pandora's plan will be everyone knowing about it, and she at one point said that she had an apocalypse to bring about "for family" not "for raven" or "for my son".... And Tedd is her god-grandson......

I think she's doing this for Tedd too 

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

15 hours ago, PSadlon said:

While it was somewhat clever, how would you feel if you created a harmless joke and someone sold it as defense against serial killers to barely prepared, impressionable youths. Even if it worked, I'd find it yet another horrifyingly wrong thing about the situation on top of everything else. Sure, I'd be a bit impressed it worked as well as it did, but seriously, no just no. I mean, harken back to Greg's reasons for closing his dojo (besides the lack of paying customers).

There's also the possibility of one or more people having grown dependent on it for that purpose, only for it to no longer be available when needed. Imagine how it would feel knowing you have to take that away, and it's too late to do anything about it?

[hkmaly 490]

17 hours ago, partner555 said:

The young Jerry we see now seems nice enough.

Well ... on one hand, he fills the vow older Jerry gave. On the other, it seems that doesn't really like it and would prefer it to be over.

16 hours ago, PSadlon said:

Even the hammers thing wasn't comparatively too bad, more of a tasteless practical joke than something actually mean spirited.

Sure it's not as bad as what Pandora or Colonel are doing.

16 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

They could have done everything they did with Nanase and Susan, and said "But all this is so you can defend yourself in case the monster gets to you again first, before the proper authorities - whom we're about to go notify - get to the monster. They are better equipped, better trained, more experienced in magic, and PAID, to handle things like this. If possible, stay out of it." I would have had no problem with that.

That's EXACTLY what they should have done, yes. Although I'm not so sure French authorities were better equipped.

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

Let's wild theory this up for now. First off, we know Helena and Demetrius has been following Elliot for some time, even for a while before they died. They would have learned a thing or two about Elliot's friends (Tedd, Sarah, Nanase, Justin) They might have noticed the relation between Tedd and Nanase and their relation to Noriko, so they follow Nanase to France to make sure nothing bad happened to her, because Europe might have more magical dangers, or even the possibility of Noriko's enemies catching wind of Nanase being near and targeting her (Like Not_Tengu did). Susan gets attacked and they notice the resemblance between her and another girl that Nanase's interacted with (Diane) and believe there's something special about them. Helena and Demetrius just can't outright tell them about Diane or Noriko, so they set them up in such a way that will eventually bring Nanase and Susan to the truth. They tell them enough about the hammers for them to use them but not why they were originally created, they also tell them where the artifact is because they know that the creator(Jerry) would soon be resetting and ending the hammer enchantment, they wanted Susan and or Nanase to investigate and meet Jerry before he reset, Jerry would then unknowingly continue what Helena and Demetrius started.

I don't think Diane interacted with Elliot or Nanase enough for them to remember her, much do something just because Susan is her sister. It's possible they followed Nanase, yes. Susan was either "collateral" or they though they can guide her to be Elliot's girlfriend when Nanase realizes she's homosexual. They told them about hammers and how can they be used, but didn't added the bit that they were actually created to ENCOURAGE that behaviour. And yes, while the hammers were useful and they might just skip that bit to look more friendly or something, it IS possible they predicted it will lead to them getting in contact with Jerry and maybe even that he will then help them ...

 

 

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think Diane interacted with Elliot or Nanase enough for them to remember her,

I meant more Nanase's interaction with Diane, and of course this is if they followed Nanase for a bit as well before her trip to France. Helena and Demetrius were older when they started following Elliot, it's possible they looked at not only his circle of friends at the time but the friends and aquaintances of those friends trying to determine who among them would be capable to protecting Elliot should anything happen to them. Maybe Helena and Demetrius foresaw the danger of being improperly reset and needed to set up a backup plan.

[hkmaly 490]

16 minutes ago, Scotty said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think Diane interacted with Elliot or Nanase enough for them to remember her,

I meant more Nanase's interaction with Diane, and of course this is if they followed Nanase for a bit as well before her trip to France. Helena and Demetrius are older when they started following Elliot, it's possible they looked at not only his circle of friends at the time but the friends and aquaintances of those friends trying to determine who among them would be capable to protecting Elliot should anything happen to them. Maybe Helena and Demetrius foresaw the danger of being improperly reset and needed to set up a backup plan.

Adding Diane is unnecessary complication. It's more likely they looked at both schools, noticed Susan and decided it will be good idea to MAKE her Elliot friend. Although I still think they only noticed her when she was paired with Nanase.

[Scotty 1,061]

It's possible they also looked at Susan and knew that she had a twin somewhere that she would have to meet at some point. Jerry knew Diane was Susan's sister and it didn't take much for even a freshly reset Jerry to know they were sisters. For 200+ year old Immortals with higher clairvoyance, it probably just required a passing glance at Diane when they were checking up on Nanase and then seeing Susan later for it to click. Again I reiterate, if Helena and Demetrius feared an improper reset interfering with their ability to protect Elliot, they'd want a backup plan, you think Diane would be unnecessary, well maybe they wanted as big a safety net as possible. Instead of 1 vampire hunter to protect Elliot, we'll have 2 soon.

[hkmaly 490]

21 hours ago, Scotty said:

It's possible they also looked at Susan and knew that she had a twin somewhere that she would have to meet at some point. Jerry knew Diane was Susan's sister and it didn't take much for even a freshly reset Jerry to know they were sisters. For 200+ year old Immortals with higher clairvoyance, it probably just required a passing glance at Diane when they were checking up on Nanase and then seeing Susan later for it to click. Again I reiterate, if Helena and Demetrius feared an improper reset interfering with their ability to protect Elliot, they'd want a backup plan, you think Diane would be unnecessary, well maybe they wanted as big a safety net as possible. Instead of 1 vampire hunter to protect Elliot, we'll have 2 soon.

That is possible. My point was, that while they might "glance" at Diane at school, she wasn't close enough to be usable. It was only when they noticed Susan - which likely happened in France - when they might realized that strengthening Susan's relationship with Nanase could easily result in vampire hunter protecting Elliot. Or two, in case they remembered Diane and predicted they will get together.

Especially considering that it is certain they knew that Nanase is homosexual and will abandon Elliot eventually: this is kind of prediction which must be easy to make.

Hmmmm ... we can continue to speculate what else they might done if not for the improper reset - or if the reset would come little later. Perhaps they would make Sarah ditch Elliot sooner (or Elliot ditch Sarah, but they might not have enough power for THAT) resulting in Elliot being free when watching TNG and Susan totally seducing him (inadvertently, of course). Or ... maybe they wouldn't do anything because they would predict it will get ok like this anyway.

(Yes, I know that the reset will need to be LOT later for directly influence Sarah's relationship with Elliot - but they might planted something indirect.)

[Scotty 1,061]

I don't think they'd attempt to set up Elliot with Susan, if they did then they failed miserably. Or maybe they predicted Elliot meeting Ashley. Who knows what would have happened if Elliot wasn't on a date with Ashley when Tara found him. The Colonel might have succeeded in getting Tara to kill Elliot if it wasn't for Ashley interfering.

[Cpt. Obvious 73]

 

On den 16 april 2016 at 2:35 AM, Scotty said:

For 200+ year old Immortals with higher clairvoyance, it probably just required a passing glance at Diane when they were checking up on Nanase and then seeing Susan later for it to click.

If clairvoyance in the EGS universe works anything like the commonly used definition then they would only need to take an interest in Susan to see that she has a sibling. Clairvoyance is usually defined as the ability to by supernatural means gain information about something or someone even if said event was something that happened in the past and / or far from the current position. So for really old immortals finding out about something as important as someone having a sibling should be easy. Only question is how much effort they have to put into using their clairvoyance. Is it a free automatic action, or does it require intent and some effort and time to use? Pandora seems to use it a lot, even when she'd prefer not to.