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The Old Hack

Story Wednesday May 10, 2017

84 posts in this topic

Just now, Vorlonagent said:

Your post here seems to agree to me not support your earlier assertion.  Your argument was that the Party Form had to have altered Elliot's sexuality.  I said "why?"  Elliot gained impulsiveness and it's reasonable to think he was casually attracted to Carol Brown already so: peck on the cheek from the Party Form.  No alterations to Elliot's sexuality needed. 

Elliot has asserted that he's not gay. That is kind of a lie if you take into account that he prefers females when using the standard morphs, The party girl may not have needed to tweak Elliot's preference for female, but if the party girl personality is bisexual or heterosexual, we haven't had any opportunity to find out. The mild mannered form though is apparently heterosexual. My assertion was that the forms personality shifts are much like how the TFG tweaks sexual preference to make adjusting to the new form. The sexual preferences are part of the personalities because that's how the stereotypes portray them as, Mild Mannered is timid and easily flustered around men, Heidi may or may not be a lesbian but acts like it because it turns on the guys. Goth isn't clear, Elliot seemed attracted to herself in that form more than anything.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Much depends on how one says "that's just him being him.", but it's still acceptance rather than "why are you doing this?"  I'd prefer that someone "get" me, but having them at least stop harping on it (whatever "it" is) is a definite step up.  The ideal case is "that's him being him" said with understanding.

It really does depend on intent as well as who the target is. Some people may be able to shrug it off easily like "meh whatever" or take it as a compliment "darned right I am!". In Tedd's case though, Elliot did say things that were similar to what Edward has said, I can't see him being able to shrug off Elliot's comment any easier than Edward's.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Worry is not always justified and usually isn't.  (In this case, Tedd has some cause, granted) As Tedd emerged from his Tedd 2.0 stage, the Tedd 1.0 anxieties were bound to return.  Tedd would likely be worried about Elliot's opinion even if there was absolutely no reason to be, just because people important to him have left him before.

Tedd's insecurities basically started resurfacing when Grace entered his life. He started having more people around him and he became really self conscious about what they thought of him, this lead to a big moment in "One Way Road" when Tedd realized he was treating Elliot like a lab rat, we don't know if Ellen told Elliot about it or if Tedd said anything to Elliot, I would think Tedd apologized but we don't know for sure if there was any kind of closure about it, for all we know it could have been "I'm sorry if my experiments made you uncomfortable" "it's no biggie". But yeah Tedd's past has had a damaging effect and we can't blame him for worrying.

17 minutes ago, Drasvin said:

My guess, his first attempt would have been right after Ellen was separated from Elliot. She was emotionally vulnerable and the dewitchery diamond was right there. It would make the most sense for him to act there and accomplish the final steps of his plan all at once. 

Yeah she was, but there was no indication that an actual attempt to make her zap Elliot was made. I dunno, it just feels like for the amount of time Magus has been in limbo, it taking nearly 2 years to make a move doesn't make any sense.

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4 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Elliot has asserted that he's not gay. That is kind of a lie if you take into account that he prefers females when using the standard morphs, The party girl may not have needed to tweak Elliot's preference for female, but if the party girl personality is bisexual or heterosexual, we haven't had any opportunity to find out. The mild mannered form though is apparently heterosexual. My assertion was that the forms personality shifts are much like how the TFG tweaks sexual preference to make adjusting to the new form. The sexual preferences are part of the personalities because that's how the stereotypes portray them as, Mild Mannered is timid and easily flustered around men, Heidi may or may not be a lesbian but acts like it because it turns on the guys. Goth isn't clear, Elliot seemed attracted to herself in that form more than anything.

OK.  I can roll with this.

5 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It really does depend on intent as well as who the target is. Some people may be able to shrug it off easily like "meh whatever" or take it as a compliment "darned right I am!". In Tedd's case though, Elliot did say things that were similar to what Edward has said, I can't see him being able to shrug off Elliot's comment any easier than Edward's.

Grace rightly called Elliot on the times when he might have caused harm to Tedd.  I'm certain she would do the same for Ed Verres if he were to discuss Tedd with her.  She doesn't seem the sort to be aggressive about such things.

10 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Tedd's insecurities basically started resurfacing when Grace entered his life. He started having more people around him and he became really self conscious about what they thought of him, this lead to a big moment in "One Way Road" when Tedd realized he was treating Elliot like a lab rat, we don't know if Ellen told Elliot about it or if Tedd said anything to Elliot, I would think Tedd apologized but we don't know for sure if there was any kind of closure about it, for all we know it could have been "I'm sorry if my experiments made you uncomfortable" "it's no biggie". But yeah Tedd's past has had a damaging effect and we can't blame him for worrying.

I hope I didn't give the impression that we should blame Tedd...  I was also supporting "the 'can't blame Tedd for worrying." idea albeit with a different set of proofs.

Part of Tedd's evolution into Tedd 3.0 was unboxing some of his past depression and anxiety and working through it.  He could really use a DGB-certified therapist of some kind. 

Completely off topic besides insecurities, Susan could use a DGB therapist, probably Grace, definitely Noah, possibly Elliot, Ellen, Justin, maybe Sarah.  Of the Main 8, it's entirely possible that only Nanase is balanced and comfortable with herself (now that she admitted to herself she is gay). 

Some characters are finding their own therapies.  I think Tedd's Lab has become therapy for Sarah and fills the same role for Tedd somewhat (Sarah's issues are minor compared to Tedd's).  Grace is Tedd's therapist at the moment.  To borrow from Deadpool Ashley's crazy matches Elliot's crazy making her great for Elliot.  And working at the comics store has been therapy for Justin since before the comic started.

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34 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Yeah she was, but there was no indication that an actual attempt to make her zap Elliot was made. I dunno, it just feels like for the amount of time Magus has been in limbo, it taking nearly 2 years to make a move doesn't make any sense.

Likely the two years in limbo were spent trying to set-up to make his move. Stuff like adjusting to being in limbo, learning about the EGS world, 'killing' Helena and Demetrius (or at least setting things up so that they die improperly) in order to open up some wiggle room, putting up with Pandora's cryptic advise. His only plan that we know of requires Ellen zapping Elliot. (The TFG itself wouldn't do the job. Otherwise why not complete the plan when he was influencing Tedd to zap Elliot in anger?) So he couldn't have made a bid to get his body back before Ellen was created. As for why there's no evidence of Ellen being influenced to zap Elliot, she was emotionally vulnerable, but her emotions were also all over the place, so Magus might have had trouble getting her to focus on the course of action he wanted. Or Helena and Demetrius might have shown up at the last minute.

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38 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Grace rightly called Elliot on the times when he might have caused harm to Tedd.  I'm certain she would do the same for Ed Verres if he were to discuss Tedd with her.  She doesn't seem the sort to be aggressive about such things.

Yeah, that's why I originally said that Grace would be the perfect person to help mend the rift between Tedd and Edward, I also now think that Grace calling out Elliot on it and making him aware, also makes him the perfect candidate.

41 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I hope I didn't give the impression that we should blame Tedd...  I was also supporting "the 'can't blame Tedd for worrying." idea albeit with a different set of proofs.

No no, I didn't get that impression at all, I was basically agreeing with what you said by giving a bunch of reasons that made sense to me.

42 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Part of Tedd's evolution into Tedd 3.0 was unboxing some of his past depression and anxiety and working through it.  He could really use a DGB-certified therapist of some kind. 

I don't know how I feel about the idea of DGB-certified therapists getting involved. Don't get me wrong, Tedd needs helps sorting through this....but I can't shake the feeling that Tedd wouldn't be treated the way we'd hope he'd be treated. Especially if Edward brings in a therapist before Tedd's situation has been explained to him.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Some characters are finding their own therapies.  I think Tedd's Lab has become therapy for Sarah and fills the same role for Tedd somewhat (Sarah's issues are minor compared to Tedd's).  Grace is Tedd's therapist at the moment.  To borrow from Deadpool Ashley's crazy matches Elliot's crazy making her great for Elliot.  And working at the comics store has been therapy for Justin since before the comic started.

I would also add that Justin and Susan have been each other's therapists as well, though Susan's issues with her father certainly seem like something only a certified therapist could help with. Justin at least recognizes that she's got those issues.

29 minutes ago, animalia said:

What does DGB stand for again?

DGB.

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17 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I don't know how I feel about the idea of DGB-certified therapists getting involved. Don't get me wrong, Tedd needs helps sorting through this....but I can't shake the feeling that Tedd wouldn't be treated the way we'd hope he'd be treated. Especially if Edward brings in a therapist before Tedd's situation has been explained to him.

Maybe the therapist could explain a few things to Ed Verres...  :

18 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I would also add that Justin and Susan have been each other's therapists as well, though Susan's issues with her father certainly seem like something only a certified therapist could help with. Justin at least recognizes that she's got those issues.

Agreed, and yeah I agree that Susan needs more help than an insightful gay friend can give.  I think Tedd needs more help than his work or Grace can give, too.  Both of them are dealing with deep wounds to their sense of safety and trust.

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3 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Maybe the therapist could explain a few things to Ed Verres...  :

Agreed, and yeah I agree that Susan needs more help than an insightful gay friend can give.  I think Tedd needs more help than his work or Grace can give, too.  Both of them are dealing with deep wounds to their sense of safety and trust.

A big problem the cover-up is causing is that they can't go to a regular therapist because of it. As all of their issues are at lease PARTIALLY intertwined with magic. Shall I make a list?

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Just now, animalia said:

A big problem the cover-up is causing is that they can't go to a regular therapist because of it. As all of their issues are at lease PARTIALLY intertwined with magic. Shall I make a list?

If you like.  I'm sure we'd all be happy to add subtract, multiply and divide the list.  :)

It's kinda why I suggested a DGB-certified therapist.  The therapist is best walking in already knowing about magic because they are going to have to find out before they can do useful work with anybody.

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1 minute ago, Vorlonagent said:

Maybe the therapist could explain a few things to Ed Verres...  :

Agreed, and yeah I agree that Susan needs more help than an insightful gay friend can give.  I think Tedd needs more help than his work or Grace can give, too.  Both of them are dealing with deep wounds to their sense of safety and trust.

Yeah, it's possible, the reason I'm soo iffy about the idea is because, while there is a chance the right therapist can help make Edward understand what Tedd's going through, the wrong therapist could tell Edward that Tedd needs to stop using the TFG.

With regards to Tedd's issues with his mom, that certainly does fall into the same territory as Susan's issues with her Dad and yeah that would be best handled by a professional, Tedd's case is definitely more complicated though as stated above. I'm uncertain if the issues can be handled separately if one has a greater risk of being handled badly.

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1 minute ago, Scotty said:

Yeah, it's possible, the reason I'm soo iffy about the idea is because, while there is a chance the right therapist can help make Edward understand what Tedd's going through, the wrong therapist could tell Edward that Tedd needs to stop using the TFG.

With regards to Tedd's issues with his mom, that certainly does fall into the same territory as Susan's issues with her Dad and yeah that would be best handled by a professional, Tedd's case is definitely more complicated though as stated above. I'm uncertain if the issues can be handled separately if one has a greater risk of being handled badly.

It's a chance you take with any therapist in the Real World.  They aren't interchangeable and they have to establish a rapport with their patient to be effective. 

Anybody that is highly judgemental of Tedd isn't going to get any useful work done with him.  Ed Verres ought to understand that at least.

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15 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

It's a chance you take with any therapist in the Real World.  They aren't interchangeable and they have to establish a rapport with their patient to be effective. 

Anybody that is highly judgemental of Tedd isn't going to get any useful work done with him.  Ed Verres ought to understand that at least.

There are an awful lot of people in the real world who expect a therapist to force the patient to be normal under threat of turning them over to the authorities for punishment, and not a few "therapists" that think so too. Sadly, a big proportion of the therapists working for the government might have that problem.

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13 minutes ago, Haylo said:

There are an awful lot of people in the real world who expect a therapist to force the patient to be normal under threat of turning them over to the authorities for punishment, and not a few "therapists" that think so too. Sadly, a big proportion of the therapists working for the government might have that problem.

I'm hoping that the paranormal community is large enough to warrant/create a specialized mental health network.  A government hack is not going to make much headway with a neurotic Uryuom.  :)

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56 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

If you like.  I'm sure we'd all be happy to add subtract, multiply and divide the list.  :)

It's kinda why I suggested a DGB-certified therapist.  The therapist is best walking in already knowing about magic because they are going to have to find out before they can do useful work with anybody.

While a regular therapist could help Susan with her father issues, she also has issues dealing from the time she killed a vampire. That is NOT something she is going to be able to explain to a normal therapist.

Justin knows that he doesn't want to become a woman as it isn't who he really is. Still knowing that said option exists through the existence of magic, would solve a LOT of his other problems has GIVEN him a bit of temptation. He seems to have mostly worked through it, and meeting Luke definatly ssems to have heped but there are hints that despite their mutual attraction to one another the relationship MIGHT go south.

Elliot's Magical identity issues are being brought up as we speak.

This brings us around to Ellen. Part of what makes her so Introspective (and why she tries to be so spontaneous) is in a search for differences between her and Elliot but as more similarities between the two of them pop up (I know what Elliot is feeling isn't exactly the same, but it is closer than his sense of identity) I can't help but wonder if Ellen might help but have new Identity crisis.

In fact I can't help but wonder if Elliot is afraid on a subconscious level that if he also tries to become introspective and more spontaneous he will develop into a similar direction as Ellen will and therefore rob her of her identity.

I want it to be noted that I am aware of course that would not need to happen ass they could develop different interests and hobbies. I am just saying that given how caring and considerate of other people's feelings Elliot is that HE would be worried it could happen.

Tedd has huge abandonment issues as well as fear of being acceptance. Magic has complicated things. It allows him to achieve a long cherished dream but it is also something that cannot be revealed to the world. I DESPERATELY want to believe that Tedd spending all of his time dwelling on something that he believes will never happen, i.e. making magic public, is what Mr. Verres was referring to when he meant spending so much time as a girl can't be healthy as at least then he would just be being innocently insensitive, rather than transphobic.

I hope this is enough for now I might go over the other characters later.

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19 hours ago, Scotty said:
20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Exactly. Therefore, no reason for Dr. Sciuridae to talk about that, unless the possibility is real and even then it likely wasn't him who told Damien.

Well, Damien didn't know that Mr Guyur was the one that made the eggs used to create Grace and her brothers, but I wouldn't doubt that Dr Sciuridae was the one the told Damien how Grace and her brothers were created, it would certain have been under threat of death or harm to Grace. It's possible Damien learned about Dr. Sciuridae from Hedge or Vlad, also under threat of harm to them and Grace, and Guineas of course, but I don't think Damien could understand snorts and squeaks.

Damien also probably CAN read. Lot of information was certainly available in written form.

19 hours ago, Scotty said:

There was absolutely no guarantee of Ellen zapping Elliot in that instance without influence. She intended to zap Tedd so she zapped Tedd. Maybe Magus hoped that Ellen would zap Elliot while they were still in the almostnonexistantsecurity facility, but Ellen ended up taking off instead. I dunno, that feels like leaving things up to chance as well which isn't a very good plan.

We don't know what was the plan. It's possible that Magus had some plan which failed early on and then wasn't able to adapt, always being step behind. .... actually, yes: his plan might've easily be to amplify Ellen's feelings when she would be jailed with Elliot in the PTTAOLUTASF but that failed when Ellen escaped.

19 hours ago, Scotty said:

Also, the incident was just a few months before the comic started so quite a bit after France so the only way it would work is if Helena and Demetrius were not lured to France as a distraction, but to make them do something that forced a reset on them, Magus would have had some time to act before Les Immortals new lives started. So the question is...What happened to make it a failed attempt?

The problem is that we know only about ONE attempt where we SAW Magus. We can obviously speculate, but no matter when the attempt was, we didn't saw him, therefore we don't know what might've make it fail.

4 hours ago, Drasvin said:
On 05/12/2017 at 1:01 AM, hkmaly said:

Obviously, DGB knows about Teddtech. It's also nothing new for them - they already have magic users who can transform (including the one who pretended to be Cheerleadra). That doesn't mean they will share this with FBI or CIA.

I would like to interject that the DGB is a subdivision of the FBI. It was mentioned in one of the earlier comics, but I don't remember which one. Though due to the paranormal division's highly secretive nature, special security clearances are likely needed to view any of their files or even know of their existence outside of a fairly nondescript section of the FBI's org chart. So, I doubt they would willingly share with the rest of the bureau. (Then again, Arthur J. Arthur previously appeared publicly as a critic and consultant to the FBI, so the existence of the Paranormal Investigations Division might be public knowledge, just everything they do is kept secret.)

Yes, I should've said "rest of FBI". Although I'm not sure it was really confirmed - sure, Agent Wolf has FBI identity card, but with the correct amount of secrecy ... note that Arthur J. Arthur was officially CONSULTANT, which obviously wasn't his REAL position.

Note: Paranormal Investigations Division might easily be public as long as they report all their cases as failures.

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

Heidi may or may not be a lesbian but acts like it because it turns on the guys.

Actually, Heidi likely act either like heterosexual who pretends to be lesbian, or as bisexual, which would both be easier if she actually WAS bisexual because it's the acting toward men Elliot will have normally problem with.

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Completely off topic besides insecurities, Susan could use a DGB therapist, probably Grace, definitely Noah, possibly Elliot, Ellen, Justin, maybe Sarah.  Of the Main 8, it's entirely possible that only Nanase is balanced and comfortable with herself (now that she admitted to herself she is gay). 

Some characters are finding their own therapies.  I think Tedd's Lab has become therapy for Sarah and fills the same role for Tedd somewhat (Sarah's issues are minor compared to Tedd's).  Grace is Tedd's therapist at the moment.  To borrow from Deadpool Ashley's crazy matches Elliot's crazy making her great for Elliot.  And working at the comics store has been therapy for Justin since before the comic started.

I don't think Justin needs therapist, but he definitely doesn't need DGB one - his problems has nothing to do with stuff you need DGB clearance for. Tedd, Susan and Grace definitely need one, Noah probably. Tedd is the hardest, he currently needs his lab, Grace AND Elliot for "amateur therapy" and it's not enough.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Yeah, it's possible, the reason I'm soo iffy about the idea is because, while there is a chance the right therapist can help make Edward understand what Tedd's going through, the wrong therapist could tell Edward that Tedd needs to stop using the TFG.

I'm sure Edward already understand his son enough to throw such therapist out.

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21 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Damien also probably CAN read. Lot of information was certainly available in written form.

Damien was dumber than a sack of rocks and solved all his problems with his power and his near indestructibility. He killed Guyur without even knowing that he that way also killed a source of eggs for his hoped-for seyunolu army. It is also obvious that he did not even bother to properly read the lab records on Grace and her cousins. If he would, it would not have come as a surprise to him YEARS LATER that oops, maybe he should have left Guyur alive.

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Damien also probably CAN read. Lot of information was certainly available in written form.

7 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Damien was dumber than a sack of rocks and solved all his problems with his power and his near indestructibility. He killed Guyur without even knowing that he that way also killed a source of eggs for his hoped-for seyunolu army. It is also obvious that he did not even bother to properly read the lab records on Grace and her cousins. If he would, it would not have come as a surprise to him YEARS LATER that oops, maybe he should have left Guyur alive.

All I got is that Damien even said that Dr. Sciuridae did tell him a fair bit, which he then made Dr Sciuridae tell Grace, under threat of harming (or maybe implied rape of) Grace.

28 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The problem is that we know only about ONE attempt where we SAW Magus. We can obviously speculate, but no matter when the attempt was, we didn't saw him, therefore we don't know what might've make it fail.

I didn't expect an actual answer to what happen, I agree we have very little to go on, it is strictly speculation, but the breadcrumbs Dan's left is enough to power a number of wild theories.

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Yes, I should've said "rest of FBI". Although I'm not sure it was really confirmed - sure, Agent Wolf has FBI identity card, but with the correct amount of secrecy ... note that Arthur J. Arthur was officially CONSULTANT, which obviously wasn't his REAL position.

Note: Paranormal Investigations Division might easily be public as long as they report all their cases as failures.

I think Dan intended to model DGB like the X-Files, which would probably mean the FBI may have more involvement. Yeah, we have Arthur as a "consultant", he was even introduced as being the "former consultant for the FBI" on TV, and if that was a false statement, the FBI would have had reason to investigate, so I think that's confirmation that the Paranormal Division is a branch of the FBI.

There's is certainly a possibility that the Paranormal Division has withheld information from the rest of the FBI though, Aliens and the existence of magic? Likely not. However the idea of Magic having a will and changing if too many people learned how to use it might be withheld, it's even possible that only a select few, like Arthur, know about that. It didn't seem like Assistant Director Leifeld knew even though he was Arthur's superior and judging by his title, part of the upper tier of the FBI.

 

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1 hour ago, animalia said:

Justin knows that he doesn't want to become a woman as it isn't who he really is. Still knowing that said option exists through the existence of magic, would solve a LOT of his other problems has GIVEN him a bit of temptation. He seems to have mostly worked through it, and meeting Luke definatly ssems to have heped but there are hints that despite their mutual attraction to one another the relationship MIGHT go south.

I don't think Justin's worked through his anger at being outed.  I see it as the reason he was able to be Marked (combined with Greg's martial arts training)

1 hour ago, animalia said:

This brings us around to Ellen. Part of what makes her so Introspective (and why she tries to be so spontaneous) is in a search for differences between her and Elliot but as more similarities between the two of them pop up (I know what Elliot is feeling isn't exactly the same, but it is closer than his sense of identity) I can't help but wonder if Ellen might help but have new Identity crisis.

That presupposes she's done with the old one.  :)  I suspect there's more chaos inside Ellen's mind from the way Tedd confuses her.

1 hour ago, animalia said:

In fact I can't help but wonder if Elliot is afraid on a subconscious level that if he also tries to become introspective and more spontaneous he will develop into a similar direction as Ellen will and therefore rob her of her identity.

You'd kind of expect there to be some elbowing back and forth over who gets custody of some aspects of Elliot's psyche.  I haven't seen any evidence of it.  On the surface, Ellen seems to have let Elliot have the whole ball of wax and decided to try reinventing herself, letting any renaming similarities be familial ones not encroaching on identity.

1 hour ago, animalia said:

Tedd has huge abandonment issues as well as fear of being acceptance. Magic has complicated things. It allows him to achieve a long cherished dream but it is also something that cannot be revealed to the world. I DESPERATELY want to believe that Tedd spending all of his time dwelling on something that he believes will never happen, i.e. making magic public, is what Mr. Verres was referring to when he meant spending so much time as a girl can't be healthy as at least then he would just be being innocently insensitive, rather than transphobic

You may have noticed that there's a huge and passionate disagreement about Ed Verres and transphobia.  I tend to think he was saying that the time Tedd spends as a girl could potentially sabotage Tedd's masculinity.  There are those that see this attitude as transphobic and those that don't.  That argument closed one thread already so despite temptation to comment I'm going to leave it alone and refer you to the may 8 thread if you want to know what I think.  And advise you to use private messages if you want to discuss my opinion with me.

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15 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I don't think Justin's worked through his anger at being outed.  I see it as the reason he was able to be Marked (combined with Greg's martial arts training)

That presupposes she's done with the old one.  :)  I suspect there's more chaos inside Ellen's mind from the way Tedd confuses her.

You'd kind of expect there to be some elbowing back and forth over who gets custody of some aspects of Elliot's psyche.  I haven't seen any evidence of it.  On the surface, Ellen seems to have let Elliot have the whole ball of wax and decided to try reinventing herself, letting any renaming similarities be familial ones not encroaching on identity.

You may have noticed that there's a huge and passionate disagreement about Ed Verres and transphobia.  I tend to think he was saying that the time Tedd spends as a girl could potentially sabotage Tedd's masculinity.  There are those that see this attitude as transphobic and those that don't.  That argument closed one thread already so despite temptation to comment I'm going to leave it alone and refer you to the may 8 thread if you want to know what I think.  And advise you to use private messages if you want to discuss my opinion with me.

I said I HOPE I honestly do NOT know. The reason I hope is obviously for Tedd's sake

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1 minute ago, animalia said:

I said I HOPE I honestly do NOT know. The reason I hope is obviously for Tedd's sake

Until the two sit down and clear the air Tedd is going to feel exactly the same way regardless. 

I think the most important indicator of Ed Verres' character is not how he goes into the talk but how he comes out.

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28 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
54 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Damien also probably CAN read. Lot of information was certainly available in written form.

Damien was dumber than a sack of rocks and solved all his problems with his power and his near indestructibility. He killed Guyur without even knowing that he that way also killed a source of eggs for his hoped-for seyunolu army. It is also obvious that he did not even bother to properly read the lab records on Grace and her cousins. If he would, it would not have come as a surprise to him YEARS LATER that oops, maybe he should have left Guyur alive.

That's why I said "probably". He might've skimmed something without bothering to read details, but the point would be that Dr Sciuridae (and possibly others) would be afraid to lie to him because he would definitely hurt them if he would find in the papers they lied.

22 minutes ago, Scotty said:
57 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Yes, I should've said "rest of FBI". Although I'm not sure it was really confirmed - sure, Agent Wolf has FBI identity card, but with the correct amount of secrecy ... note that Arthur J. Arthur was officially CONSULTANT, which obviously wasn't his REAL position.

Note: Paranormal Investigations Division might easily be public as long as they report all their cases as failures.

I think Dan intended to model DGB like the X-Files, which would probably mean the FBI may have more involvement. Yeah, we have Arthur as a "consultant", he was even introduced as being the "former consultant for the FBI" on TV, and if that was a false statement, the FBI would have had reason to investigate, so I think that's confirmation that the Paranormal Division is a branch of the FBI.

Yeah ... not only agent Cranium and agent Wolf, but even Edward Verres had some inspiration ... on the other hand, the similarities might not go too deep.

Note that I actually consider DGB being division of FBI most likely, I was just commenting that it's not completely sure.

26 minutes ago, Scotty said:

There's is certainly a possibility that the Paranormal Division has withheld information from the rest of the FBI though, Aliens and the existence of magic? Likely not. However the idea of Magic having a will and changing if too many people learned how to use it might be withheld, it's even possible that only a select few, like Arthur, know about that. It didn't seem like Assistant Director Leifeld knew even though he was Arthur's superior and judging by his title, part of the upper tier of the FBI.

Well, "rest of FBI" doesn't even need to know about magic and aliens. This is "need to know" stuff and most agents wouldn't need it. Obviously the directors would know basic stuff like this, but it's not necessary true that higher level people know more than lower level ... I would also be interested if they tell president.

2 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
5 minutes ago, animalia said:

I said I HOPE I honestly do NOT know. The reason I hope is obviously for Tedd's sake

Until the two sit down and clear the air Tedd is going to feel exactly the same way regardless. 

I think the most important indicator of Ed Verres' character is not how he goes into the talk but how he comes out.

Definitely. There seem to be lot of things which didn't occurred to Verres and we shouldn't presume how he would react when someone points them to him.

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Regarding Elliot's party girl form, I never thought Heidi kissing Carol on the cheek was all that big a deal, except for Sarah's jealous reaction to it (and Elliot worrying how she'd react before that).  Some girls kiss people on the cheek all the time!  Assuming that Heidi is bisexual or gay just because she kissed another girl on the cheek when saying goodbye is really a bit much.

Was Ellen being confused by Tedd before or after the time skip?

Justin probably hadn't worked out his anger when he got his mark, but I do think that his finally talking with Melissa has let him make some progress on that.  Not as much as she has, although one could argue she had further to go, but I do think she had an effect on him.

Magus and the two years....I think I like the idea of Magus having tried a completely different plan, possibly involving Les Immortals and/or being stopped by them, but not necessarily so.  Pandora was probably watching the whole time.

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34 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Until the two sit down and clear the air Tedd is going to feel exactly the same way regardless. 

I think the most important indicator of Ed Verres' character is not how he goes into the talk but how he comes out.

Agreed

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On the discussion of what Heidi kissing Carol says about Elliot's sexual orientation and how transformations affect it...

... another complexity is whether Elliot is primarily heterosexual (sexually attracted to the opposite sex) or gynosexual (sexually attracted to women).

Which, at least in the case of Elliot and Tedd, are obviously NOT the same thing.

In fact, Tedd's statement that the TFG's sex-change transformations add sexual attraction to the now-opposite sex, and Ellen's statement that her attraction to males seems tacked on, suggests that Elliot is gynosexual, and that the most common arrangements are gynosexual males and androsexual females.

As for the real world, the only way we can approach that question is to ask genderfluid people about it. And what evidence I have on the question, says that sexual attraction is not to "the opposite sex" (flip-flopping as the person's current gender changes) but to "a specific sex". However, that evidence is based on a sample size of 1 so don't take it very seriously. There's no obvious reason the answer couldn't be a mix which varies from person to person... and of course some genderfluid people will be full-time bisexual, or asexual, or demisexual, or...

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19 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

As for the real world, the only way we can approach that question is to ask genderfluid people about it. And what evidence I have on the question, says that sexual attraction is not to "the opposite sex" (flip-flopping as the person's current gender changes) but to "a specific sex". However, that evidence is based on a sample size of 1 so don't take it very seriously. There's no obvious reason the answer couldn't be a mix which varies from person to person... and of course some genderfluid people will be full-time bisexual, or asexual, or demisexual, or...

I think that in last two or three threads, the sample size was already 3 ... except they didn't agree.

48 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Regarding Elliot's party girl form, I never thought Heidi kissing Carol on the cheek was all that big a deal, except for Sarah's jealous reaction to it (and Elliot worrying how she'd react before that).  Some girls kiss people on the cheek all the time!  Assuming that Heidi is bisexual or gay just because she kissed another girl on the cheek when saying goodbye is really a bit much.

The speculations on Heidi's sexual orientation are based on the trope she's representing, the kiss is just confirmation.

24 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

In fact, Tedd's statement that the TFG's sex-change transformations add sexual attraction to the now-opposite sex, and Ellen's statement that her attraction to males seems tacked on, suggests that Elliot is gynosexual, and that the most common arrangements are gynosexual males and androsexual females.

Tedd OR Uryuoms programming the basic forms MIGHT not have complete understanding of human sexuality. Not that they needed it. The gun obviously adds attraction to the now-opposite sex, which is all they needed for the repopulation purpose, and they don't really CARE what sexuality person had before transformation. So what if "true hetero" will be transformed to heterosexual - bisexuality as result of TF gun was not guaranteed.

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